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Terra Preta - Dark Soil - Experiment
- Thread starter SilverSurfer_OG
- Start date
nice
did you use it on seedlings/clones?
what % of the mix was the charcoal?
thanks.
nice peppers but they sure look hot.........
In a quick search i saw this:
California Charcoal # 4, Unit:50 lb Shipping Wt:60.0lb for $50.
what's cali charcoal?
all the stuff left after the forest fires?
EDIT: Sorry, no offense meant to cali. those fires are horrible.
Hey Ripman on the hormones. I noticed hormones
can get an OMRI rating & they use them in Superthrive &
lots of other stuff.
How bad r they? for soil? thanks.
I'm not yet a soil and an organic grower, so I talk from what I've read and understood and not based on experience. Hormones to me can be good and can be bad as well, it depends on the specific hormone and how you use it.
For instance, a lot of hormones we find in many products we pay a lot are actually already present in quantity in Ascophyllum Nodosum (a type of seaweed). You can take some Keep It Simple Seaweed Powder and have plenty of giberellins and auxins, and those don't stick to soil or, if they stick, they are not harmful to plants.
On the contrary, some other hormones, like Mepiquat, Paclobutrazol, Cycocel and other PGRs, have a less known origin and if used wrong can be so dangerous that the producers are not keen to put them on the labels. Which tells a lot of how labeling policies are complete nonsense (like the producer in some case has to guarantee there is at least a minimum quantity of an element, but can avoid disclosure of potentialy unsafe products).
I'm not a fan of OMRI rating, to me if chelated calcium and magnesium and iron are good to plants and cannot be easily gotten organically, I don't mind using refined minerals.
About hormones, I'm currently using Nitrozyme, so as far as auxins and giberellins I believe they are good to be used on plants, in moderate correct quantities. As far as other hormones go, I'm considering to source a bottle of Bushmaster, because such product can get handy at times. I will avoid though Gravity and Purple Maxx, as I believe you can more easily get the same results without fucking up your plants with risky products that sometimes you can't even make work.
These last products must be handled more carefully and are probably to be avoided in soil you want to re-use. Some of them can be applied by foliar feeding though, that is why I'm considering to buy Bushmaster.
What I've found though is that many products we pay a lot can be easily substituted with stuff which is less complex, more organic, and costs less.
That is why I'm considering making my own charcoal, my own worm castings, and using seaweed extract, EM-1, molasses and mycos. Will have to see then how to source NPKCaMgS and whether it is going to be mainly refined minerals, slow release or fast acting organics.
About superthrive, I've never used it and I've not yet understood if it is vitamins, aminoacids, carbohydrates, microbes or hormones. I guess it is not really unsafe, but as far as I remember I couldn't get a clear understanding of what is in there, so I've decided the same stuff could be gotten from other products.
Wow ripman thanks for the detailed reply/
There's organic n,p,k, individual nut's on the market
Organicare has OMRI Nitrex & Calplex.
I'm keepin your post handy. thanks.
There's organic n,p,k, individual nut's on the market
Organicare has OMRI Nitrex & Calplex.
I'm keepin your post handy. thanks.
I hope this is 'on topc' with the terra preta living soil.
I was reading about soil microbes and found this (after all
the ads selling stuff, google pg#15)
http://agresourceinc.wordpress.com/2007/06/29/the-truth-about-replenishing-soil-with-microbes/
The Truth about “Replenishing” Soil with Microbes
June 29, 2007, 1:16 pm
Filed under: General Info
Professional growers and homeowners are inundated with new products that are promoted to “produce healthy plants.” One such type of product is microbial inoculants that can be added to the soil to “replenish” soil or create a “healthy” soil. These products typically are advertised as providing specific microbes that are somehow missing or inactive.
Soils typically are inhabited by huge numbers of a wide variety of microorganisms, and while there is little doubt that the microbial populations that inhabit the soil and colonize the roots of plants are of critical importance, the introduction of beneficial microbes by inoculating the soil is highly unlikely to lead to any significant benefit. First, it is almost impossible to make changes to the existing microbial populations by just adding an inoculum. Newly introduced microbes cannot compete with the existing populations that inhabit the soil in huge numbers. The introduced microbes are not likely to survive or grow if the nutrients and soil environment are not also modified to the degree that they will have a competitive advantage.
University research performed under controlled laboratory conditions and in field trials has clearly demonstrated that in order for any microbial inoculant to be effective the soil environment must also be controlled. In particular, years of research performed with microbial inoculants introduced to the soil to control plant pathogens has shown that the introduced microbes might grow and survive, but they were not effective unless appropriate sources of organic matter (e.g., composts) were also present. In addition, the quality of the organic amendment had a significant effect not just on the ability of the introduced microbes to grow and survive but also on the activity of the introduced microbes.
Although microbial populations in the soil can benefit plant health, plant growers should be aware that the mere presence of “beneficial” microbes is not enough. Unless the soil environment provides proper nutrients, as may be supplied by composts or other amendments, microbes will not produce the level of activity that is sought. In particular, growers should be skeptical of the simplistic statements made by some organizations such as “healthy soils contain typically 25,000 species of bacteria and 8,000 species of fungi.” This statement implies to the reader that adding species or numbers of microbes will have some benefit. The reality is that the activity of the microbes is most important and long-term changes to microbial activity in the soil will likely require changes to the physical and chemical structure of the soil. The introduction of organic matter through soil amendments is one important way to make long-term changes to the soil environment that will in turn promote changes in microbial populations and microbial activity.
The soil microbial community is amazingly complex and although it is often attractive to make simple statements about the benefits of products, growers and homeowners looking to improve the soil should carefully evaluate claims that promise simple solutions to complex problems.
I was reading about soil microbes and found this (after all
the ads selling stuff, google pg#15)
http://agresourceinc.wordpress.com/2007/06/29/the-truth-about-replenishing-soil-with-microbes/
The Truth about “Replenishing” Soil with Microbes
June 29, 2007, 1:16 pm
Filed under: General Info
Professional growers and homeowners are inundated with new products that are promoted to “produce healthy plants.” One such type of product is microbial inoculants that can be added to the soil to “replenish” soil or create a “healthy” soil. These products typically are advertised as providing specific microbes that are somehow missing or inactive.
Soils typically are inhabited by huge numbers of a wide variety of microorganisms, and while there is little doubt that the microbial populations that inhabit the soil and colonize the roots of plants are of critical importance, the introduction of beneficial microbes by inoculating the soil is highly unlikely to lead to any significant benefit. First, it is almost impossible to make changes to the existing microbial populations by just adding an inoculum. Newly introduced microbes cannot compete with the existing populations that inhabit the soil in huge numbers. The introduced microbes are not likely to survive or grow if the nutrients and soil environment are not also modified to the degree that they will have a competitive advantage.
University research performed under controlled laboratory conditions and in field trials has clearly demonstrated that in order for any microbial inoculant to be effective the soil environment must also be controlled. In particular, years of research performed with microbial inoculants introduced to the soil to control plant pathogens has shown that the introduced microbes might grow and survive, but they were not effective unless appropriate sources of organic matter (e.g., composts) were also present. In addition, the quality of the organic amendment had a significant effect not just on the ability of the introduced microbes to grow and survive but also on the activity of the introduced microbes.
Although microbial populations in the soil can benefit plant health, plant growers should be aware that the mere presence of “beneficial” microbes is not enough. Unless the soil environment provides proper nutrients, as may be supplied by composts or other amendments, microbes will not produce the level of activity that is sought. In particular, growers should be skeptical of the simplistic statements made by some organizations such as “healthy soils contain typically 25,000 species of bacteria and 8,000 species of fungi.” This statement implies to the reader that adding species or numbers of microbes will have some benefit. The reality is that the activity of the microbes is most important and long-term changes to microbial activity in the soil will likely require changes to the physical and chemical structure of the soil. The introduction of organic matter through soil amendments is one important way to make long-term changes to the soil environment that will in turn promote changes in microbial populations and microbial activity.
The soil microbial community is amazingly complex and although it is often attractive to make simple statements about the benefits of products, growers and homeowners looking to improve the soil should carefully evaluate claims that promise simple solutions to complex problems.
Good article indeed... I guess it should be read as "can new microbes only improve what is already a living soil?" To me it basically says that if you already have a nice garden growing, probably there is already a good acclimated microflora which cannot be improved upon, unless you put the microbes, and you feed them too (with compost).
It is something to be considered... at present among the thing I was considering was to learn more about organics to improve the little garden my grandma cultivates... so I was considering getting mycos, creating Activated EM, improving the compost and making compost teas... after this article, I'm a little bit more concerned... isn't it that maybe there is "nothing to fix" as nature has already cared for herself?
I don't know. I guess we could have better vegetables, sometimes you hear people say, "don't you feel how good are homemade vegetables?" and I believe sometimes some vegetables are just ok, but people feel they are awesome because they have cared for them themselves... it's just like with bread or local dishes... the locals will always say their's is the best. There is some truth to it for sure, but sometimes taste and sensibility are fooled by adaptation to the environment.
One thing is for sure though: microbes will certainly improve microbial life upon the coco I buy at the hydrostore
so while in grandma's garden my improving knowledge could go wasted, at least my coco will be happy to be amended
It is something to be considered... at present among the thing I was considering was to learn more about organics to improve the little garden my grandma cultivates... so I was considering getting mycos, creating Activated EM, improving the compost and making compost teas... after this article, I'm a little bit more concerned... isn't it that maybe there is "nothing to fix" as nature has already cared for herself?
I don't know. I guess we could have better vegetables, sometimes you hear people say, "don't you feel how good are homemade vegetables?" and I believe sometimes some vegetables are just ok, but people feel they are awesome because they have cared for them themselves... it's just like with bread or local dishes... the locals will always say their's is the best. There is some truth to it for sure, but sometimes taste and sensibility are fooled by adaptation to the environment.
One thing is for sure though: microbes will certainly improve microbial life upon the coco I buy at the hydrostore
so while in grandma's garden my improving knowledge could go wasted, at least my coco will be happy to be amended
J
JackTheGrower
Understanding how to "Trick" plants into production can be useful but nothing beats a humified substrate and that is the ideal of organic soil IMO.
Tera preta is why plants grow fast. In our realm it's the humification that is our tera preta process IMO. The basis of this is compost biology continuing 24/365.
We can advance humus formation by the recomposting of our soil mixes periodically.
So whether of not a "thing" we add or some "system" we practice is "the best organic growing" it needs to fit in with the aging of the soil IMO.
I found a nice picture of some tera preta soil in that link.
I believe the char is important in the soil and I will be adding more this year as I see the results on the Peppers in their second year and better than the first.
Exactly how the people worked the soil all those years ago is lost to us but we can see by what the soil is made of that char was important in some way.
Tera preta is why plants grow fast. In our realm it's the humification that is our tera preta process IMO. The basis of this is compost biology continuing 24/365.
We can advance humus formation by the recomposting of our soil mixes periodically.
So whether of not a "thing" we add or some "system" we practice is "the best organic growing" it needs to fit in with the aging of the soil IMO.
I found a nice picture of some tera preta soil in that link.
I believe the char is important in the soil and I will be adding more this year as I see the results on the Peppers in their second year and better than the first.
Exactly how the people worked the soil all those years ago is lost to us but we can see by what the soil is made of that char was important in some way.
What are the pottery shards adding in terra preta?
Is it just aeration? or more? thanks.
Is it just aeration? or more? thanks.
J
JackTheGrower
LOL My guess is all the trash ended up in the mix.. I mean why waste the human waste products and food waste toss it in the heap? My guess is it's the trash that hasn't decomposed.. I mean it wouldn't seem to be useful to make pottery and then use it for farming?
The closest to terra preta in North America is our Forests I understand.
Wouldnt crushed pottery be their version of perlite? Thats my thought.
As for the microbes thing the char acts as a breeding ground for the microbes and stops them being washed away with rain/watering. I understand it also allows more NPK to be stored in the soil. This is especially useful i reckon when using more of a hybrid soiless medium such as coco with a small amount of compost/soil for the biolife to cling on to.
As for the microbes thing the char acts as a breeding ground for the microbes and stops them being washed away with rain/watering. I understand it also allows more NPK to be stored in the soil. This is especially useful i reckon when using more of a hybrid soiless medium such as coco with a small amount of compost/soil for the biolife to cling on to.
J
JackTheGrower
I was reading that there is a chemical aspect to char as well>? I can't remember where.. Something to do with ions and stuff moving about.
J
JackTheGrower
What if the Clay acted as a chelating agent? Effect of soil electroosmotic flow enhancement by chelating reagents
I was looking at that today.. I liked the word "electroosmotic."
Wouldn't the pottery be high in metals?
Interesting stuff Jack. thanks, gotta check it out.
But what if they invented hydroton (baked clay).........EDIT: From Wikipedia, the free
Electroosmotic flow (or Electro-osmotic flow, often abbreviated EOF) is the motion of liquid induced by an applied potential across a capillary tube or microchannel. Electroosmotic flow is an essential component in chemical separation techniques, notably capillary electrophoresis. Electroosmotic flow can occur in natural unfiltered water, as well as buffered solutions.
But what if they invented hydroton (baked clay).........EDIT: From Wikipedia, the free
Electroosmotic flow (or Electro-osmotic flow, often abbreviated EOF) is the motion of liquid induced by an applied potential across a capillary tube or microchannel. Electroosmotic flow is an essential component in chemical separation techniques, notably capillary electrophoresis. Electroosmotic flow can occur in natural unfiltered water, as well as buffered solutions.
Electroosmotic flow a?
That was my second guess...
Sounds interesting. Amazing how complicated a piece of dirt can be
That was my second guess...
Sounds interesting. Amazing how complicated a piece of dirt can be
J
JackTheGrower
I don't know.. I mean ions and stuff.. char pH and all that..
I am worth what they pay me here tho
So why would there be pottery shards? Did they fill up the jars with shit then throw them away? Or throw them away after a while?
I would .. who would want to clean and reuse that crock... Pun intended..
I am worth what they pay me here tho
So why would there be pottery shards? Did they fill up the jars with shit then throw them away? Or throw them away after a while?
I would .. who would want to clean and reuse that crock... Pun intended..
from what i would think, the clay pot shards can be used for.
water holding
cation exchange
microbial housing
benefiting soil structure
reasons for them being in terra preta in the first place. i would guess they had to use a ton of clay pots for there society, as there was no plastic and such back then( i bet they needed tons of charcoal daily to cook with too, also why the bones are found in the soil too ). so they either threw the broken ones away(into one area aka the trash dump). or knew the beneficial properties(possibly by accident) and added them to their agriculture fields.
just my 2 cents
water holding
cation exchange
microbial housing
benefiting soil structure
reasons for them being in terra preta in the first place. i would guess they had to use a ton of clay pots for there society, as there was no plastic and such back then( i bet they needed tons of charcoal daily to cook with too, also why the bones are found in the soil too ). so they either threw the broken ones away(into one area aka the trash dump). or knew the beneficial properties(possibly by accident) and added them to their agriculture fields.
just my 2 cents
Yah but what about the sharp edges. we talkin before Nike!
barefoot jungle people..........
barefoot jungle people..........
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