TC2010/Prop 19 unlikely to pass (new poll results)

[MoldyFrogToe]

They won't have to break federal laws cause if that law passes, it will pave the road to make it federally legal in the near future cause the corporations will dump millions to congress to pass it in their favor and let them control it like they control everything else. They will make it very difficult for you to grow your own trees. The US government isn't working for the people, they work for the corporations. You'll never stop big money.

According to the Rand Drug Policy Research Center, the price of marijuana could fall by as much as 80 percent if the drug were made legal for individual use.

I feel that you are a misguided parasite, who is just as bad as a corporate head who wants to control a market all for himself for $$
Only difference is that your sentiment cuffs people & shatters families/lives at the same time, due to the legislative outcome your view would have.

We will work to marginalize your greedy parasitic self.
You are wrong on every level.

Go be a cop and cuff people for MJ.
You'd accomplish the same, and at least that way we wouldn't have to be ashamed to be associated with people such as yourselves.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=181696

 

[dagnabit]

I'm not saying Marlboro is gonna be in this thing right when it starts, but don't forget they've been buying land in Northern Cali for a while now.

bullshit..

ive already disproven it in other threads.
the only "land" owned by tobacco companies in norcal are offshore oil leases and a geothermal power plant.

you guys making up these lies about this bill show just how weak your arguements are.

 

[green_thumb...]

"Vote Yes on 19Let's end the medical MJ scam and truly regulate and free this weed"

I swear this is a oxymoron if iv ever seen it,there shouldn't be any sort of law on gods gifts to us. How the fuck is regulating something freeing it? Makes no sence!!! I can care less to vote on anything cannabis related,there's loop holes like swiss cheese in anything that has to do with laws especially something like this which is constructed not on our terms not on voters terms if it were up to THE PEOPLE there wouldn't be any regulations on cannabis,I mean its not fuckin meth or coke,its a plant and in all reality have to even have to have thses sorta debates/laws/restrictions on a PLANT is rediculous and is just a way to keep your heads on the wrong subject.

There's a "slid of hand" going on rightnow and everyone is falling for it,focus on the bigger picture is what I say.

 

[Guest 88950]

I will be voting NO! Just in case people are wondering why... San Diego just had another raid on a dispensory which is legal and it was Fed lead with the city backing it up... Sorry but it will not stop if they will not respect the MMJ bills... why do people think it will stop with rec legalization? It won't... it is all about the money on both sides.

true, it wont stop until Cannabis is Re-scheduled to a Class II Controlled Substance or lower but who does the DEA go after, The biggest and baddest.

so let phillip morris or the like set up , they'll pull the heat off the smaller mom & Pops.

until the DEA ends their war on Cannabis they will go after the Big Guys and right now the the big guys are working on the fringes of the GREA AREA.

so let someone else become the target of the DEA (Death to Every American)

in a Legal environment one would be able to go to the bank with a solid Business Plan and get a loan to enter a Legal Canna Trade.

hell, the way the presidency hands out $$$ to those in need i bet there may be BIG FED Dollars to stimulate the economy in Cali.

make the polititions work for you. they need to get creative and add Ear Marks, that unsightly pork that inflates the federal budget but unavoidable, that increase the money states and districts get.

the feds are unlikely to fund much with Cannabis / Marijuana in the text but the Canna Trade can be covered with more ambiguous terms: Retail, Medical, Tourism, Agriculture........theses Pork projects are Cash Cows for the lifer congressman / women

 

[MoldyFrogToe]

"Vote Yes on 19Let's end the medical MJ scam and truly regulate and free this weed"

I swear this is a oxymoron if iv ever seen it,there shouldn't be any sort of law on gods gifts to us. How the fuck is regulating something freeing it? Makes no sence!!! I can care less to vote on anything cannabis related,there's loop holes like swiss cheese in anything that has to do with laws especially something like this which is constructed not on our terms not on voters terms if it were up to THE PEOPLE there wouldn't be any regulations on cannabis,I mean its not fuckin meth or coke,its a plant and in all reality have to even have to have thses sorta debates/laws/restrictions on a PLANT is rediculous and is just a way to keep your heads on the wrong subject.

There's a "slid of hand" going on rightnow and everyone is falling for it,focus on the bigger picture is what I say.

What you want is 100% unrealistic in this country, even though it's what most of us would like if we had our way.
The only way we will ever have a hope of any form of legalization in this country is regulation/taxation.

Please reconsider because revamping the entire FDA/Commercial Regulatory rules of the US is even more of a challenge than getting MJ legalized under it.
The effects of regulatory legalization will by far outweigh the negatives in terms of human freedom and putting and end to suffering!

 

[Gdood9]

bullshit..

ive already disproven it in other threads.
the only "land" owned by tobacco companies in norcal are offshore oil leases and a geothermal power plant.

you guys making up these lies about this bill show just how weak your arguements are.

really, have you? Do you live in Northen Cali, have you talked to growers there? Have you heard them talking about these people? I have. They know of several people high up in the tobacco companies buying land up there. Sure, it may not be in marlboro's name, but the owners and board of directors own land up there. I know quite a few growers up there that are reputable old head's that know everything that's going on. Keep on living the illusion. Keep on.

What you want is 100% unrealistic in this country, even though it's what most of us would like if we had our way.
The only way we will ever have a hope of any form of legalization in this country is regulation/taxation.

Please reconsider because revamping the entire FDA/Commercial Regulatory rules of the US is even more of a challenge than getting MJ legalized under it.
The effects of regulatory legalization will by far outweigh the negatives in terms of human freedom and putting and end to suffering!

Regulatory legalization, now that's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.

I'm not saying don't tax either. Tax it on the retail level if they like(just make sure all the taxes are appropriated back to the people the way direct taxes are supposed to be) and I think it should be regulated to 18 and older. Just don't give the rest of the power to the state. Leave the regulations open beyond that. Let anyone grow as much as they want without the expense heavy licensing and regulatory scheme created in this initiative...oh yea, that's right, if they did that no paper trail and less money for the state and they won't collect those nice license fees every year...the blackmarket will still thrive because people will trade and sell to their friends. They don't want that. When you create strict regulations it creates a head start for the people with big money to come in that can create those paper trails and can be tracked much easier. That's how they make sure they get their money.

What don't you guys get? This isn't about your freedom, it's about the money. California is broke as a joke, otherwise this bill wouldn't even be getting talked about right now.

Let's call this what it is. Limited Decriminalization with heavy regulatory and licensing scheme to make money for the state. There will be new laws created after this too if passed that will still be putting people in jail. The jailing of people won't stop. You do know that for every person in jail the state gets federal grants? They make money off of you being in jail.

 

[green_thumb...]

Yeah that's just what the guys that control everything want you to think/feel,helpless to a point when all it is the people need to quit being scary pussies and divided and unite already I'm talking world wide scale I know its unrealistic due to media/big corperations so I'm just plannin for the bad end result of repressing our total and absolute freedom.

 

[dagnabit]

really, have you? Do you live in Northen Cali, have you talked to growers there? Have you heard them talking about these people? I have. They know of several people high up in the tobacco companies buying land up there. Sure, it may not be in marlboro's name, but the owners and board of directors own land up there. I know quite a few growers up there that are reputable old head's that know everything that's going on. Keep on living the illusion. Keep on.

ohh shit i had nooooooo idea?!?!?!?

you know a guy that heard from an old hippy!!!!
well fuck me that is much better than the multiple f.o.i.a. documents that were released in 2008 regarding land purchases by r.j.reynolds in northern california.

all those lawyers and journalists have no idea...if i need to know what the c.e.o. of a multinational corporation is doing.....i ask an old triangle hippy.....

moving on

 

[smokesalot420]

Classic!

 

[Gdood9]

ohh shit i had nooooooo idea?!?!?!?

you know a guy that heard from an old hippy!!!!
well fuck me that is much better than the multiple f.o.i.a. documents that were released in 2008 regarding land purchases by r.j.reynolds in northern california.

all those lawyers and journalists have no idea...if i need to know what the c.e.o. of a multinational corporation is doing.....i ask an old triangle hippy.....

moving on

So, what are you trying to say here? That everyone that's not the government isn't a credible source? HAHA. Get out of here. The gov't has shown to NOT be a credible source. Global warming scam? Gulf of Tonkin? Propaganda? Credible source my ass. OR.....are you affirming that there are documents regarding land purchases by r.j.reynolds in northern california? Either way you pretty much affirm what I've said. Thanks.

Yea, lawyers, journalists, and big government. Totally the people to trust, right? They haven't steered you wrong before, have they?

Yea, go and move one, because I'm right. It's ok, don't get too butt hurt when what I'm saying becomes the clear truth. I won't hold it against you.

Maybe you should listen to a few hippies, it might open your mind a little. I'm pretty sure they have eyes too, oh, but they aren't the government, or the news corporations owned by our government, or the lawyers that work for our government so they aren't credible. You know what, let's just listen to everything the government has to say and the world will be a much better place, huh? Wanna depopulate the earth too?

 

[MoldyFrogToe]

Regulatory legalization, now that's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.

I'm not saying don't tax either. Tax it on the retail level if they like(just make sure all the taxes are appropriated back to the people the way direct taxes are supposed to be) and I think it should be regulated to 18 and older. Just don't give the rest of the power to the state. Leave the regulations open beyond that. Let anyone grow as much as they want without the expense heavy licensing and regulatory scheme created in this initiative...oh yea, that's right, if they did that no paper trail and less money for the state and they won't collect those nice license fees every year...the blackmarket will still thrive because people will trade and sell to their friends. They don't want that. When you create strict regulations it creates a head start for the people with big money to come in that can create those paper trails and can be tracked much easier. That's how they make sure they get their money.

What don't you guys get? This isn't about your freedom, it's about the money. California is broke as a joke, otherwise this bill wouldn't even be getting talked about right now.

Let's call this what it is. Limited Decriminalization with heavy regulatory and licensing scheme to make money for the state. There will be new laws created after this too if passed that will still be putting people in jail. The jailing of people won't stop. You do know that for every person in jail the state gets federal grants? They make money off of you being in jail.

We know it's about money to them.
And this is why we have leverage on them for legalizing.
It's about freedom to us. Win-win situation. We have em by the balls in this sense.

Once legalization goes over well, the rest of the country will see it as an opportunity.
And, we can have an opportunity to show that this is just like alcohol - no - safer than it!

Clearly your standards are set unrealistically high.
You're hurting the movement because of that.

Everything that is commercial in this country is regulated.
What is your point?
Why do you guys demonize this stuff right off the bat?
Don't you see every other commercial market?
Free market = consumer demands = competition = quality & transparency.

You guys automatically assume the world will be taken over by big scary corporations. Toughen the hell up.
As a consumer I have countless options for beer. For food. For cars. For fertilizer.
And you know what? I call their consumer lines and tell them exactly my expectations of their product, if those are not met.
If it's not met I don't buy their crap and I let em know clearly why, because that's how the business world works. I'm in control, not them.

Obviously we know the jailing won't stop from the federal level.
Does this mean we should fight legalization at the state level? No.
CA is going to set a precedent for the rest of the country just like they did with mmj.
Legalizing will therefore act to influence other states and legislation at the federal level. A great thing.

No, there is no large incentive by most rational people (especially in a bankrupt state such as CA with overflowing prisons and gang problems) in office to keep MJ-"criminals" in jail sucking up tax money that could be applied to people who actually deserve it. Sorry. Not buyin it. Tinfoilism.

Paper trails? C'mon, this is a joke. Go pay with cash if you're worried about paper trails.
Then talk to the thousands with medical records at a state level about paper trails. Weak argument, irrelevant.

You have to learn how to play this right, for the first time in a while we have an opportunity to legalize because politicians actually see the benefits.
Once the ball gets rolling it may stick.
You're fighting directly against all of that for the flimsiest of reasons.

And yes, the blackmarket will always thrive, which is assumed and therefore irrelevant. The point is, the vast majority of people will now not have to use the black market, incentives for murderous cartels & gangs to take over our country will be lessened, and prices within the black market will drop significantly. A great thing.

 

[mrdizzle]

This Bill is Majorly flawed!

Peron, co-author of Proposition 215, cites three "fatal flaws" in the Oaksterdamn U initiative . These can be described as limits, taxes, and penalties regarding minors.

Regarding the limits of one ounce and 25 square feet for personal cultivation:

"Imagine a law to “tax and regulate” alcohol that only allows for possession of up to one bottle of wine imprisoning those who exceed that amount, be it two bottles or a small collection of choice vintages. These limits guarantee confusion, harassment and black marketeering forevermore. We don’t control alcohol by imposing a 25 sq. foot limit on grape vines. But one extra gram or sq. foot of pot means jail and even worse; this initiative specifies that if accused of having too much cannabis the burden of proof is on you, not the state."

Regarding taxes:

"Singling out those who want to use marijuana for a huge excise tax is just plain unfair. It maintains cannabis as the most expensive, blatantly overpriced product on the market thus forcing most people to choose cheaper, more dangerous drugs with huge externalized costs to society as a whole."

Regarding minors:

"Sending teenagers to state prison for three years for pot is evil. This initiative mandates that 18, 19, and twenty year old minors serve three to seven year terms in California state prison for the crime of passing each other a joint or selling one another a small amount. Under this law if a 21 year old person passes a joint to a 20 year old he or she goes to county jail for six months. Likewise this measure has no exceptions for parents in their own homes from the “smoking cannabis in any space while minors are present” prohibition. We don’t lock up parents for having a glass of wine with dinner and we certainly don’t tell the kids to leave the house for the purpose of consuming any other substance so why start with cannabis?"

Peron vows that if the proponents "buy" enough signatures to get the initiative on the ballot he will campaign against it:

"This initiative is bad for parents, students and, ultimately, the effort to get the state to stop ruining lives enforcing these draconian pot laws. Initiatives create permanent statutes. This one with its petty restrictions for personal users, prohibitive unfair taxes, and mandatory state prison sentences for teen agers need be nipped in the bud. We will campaign and vote against it should its proponents succeed in purchasing the necessary number of signatures to put it on the 2010 ballot. The tax revenue it will supposedly generate is a mere smokescreen for the kids it will regulate into three, five and seven year state prison sentences."


VOTE NO!

 

[Toyot4]

"Imagine a law to “tax and regulate” alcohol that only allows for possession of up to one bottle of wine imprisoning those who exceed that amount, be it two bottles or a small collection of choice vintages. These limits guarantee confusion, harassment and black marketeering forevermore. We don’t control alcohol by imposing a 25 sq. foot limit on grape vines. But one extra gram or sq. foot of pot means jail and even worse; this initiative specifies that if accused of having too much cannabis the burden of proof is on you, not the state."

It is illegal to operate your own still (for making spirits) in america and home brewing is capped at 100gallons/year.

These regulations do exist when concerning alcohol just not a law that says you can not carry a certain amount, but if you had 100gallons of home brew in your truck i guarantee they will be asking you questions.

25sq ft is imposed as a state minimum and you can store your crop at your house no matter the size of the crop. Its paranoia to think that California is going to have resources to come into everyones homes to make sure that they aren't operating a 26sq ft garden.

remember, the ounce limit is for trafficking reasons. If California made it legal to drive around with more than an ounce on them it would make it even easier to traffic weight out of the state.

 

[Gdood9]

We know it's about money to them.
And this is why we have leverage on them for legalizing.
It's about freedom to us. Win-win situation. We have em by the balls in this sense.

Once legalization goes over well, the rest of the country will see it as an opportunity.
And, we can have an opportunity to show that this is just like alcohol - no - safer than it!

Clearly your standards are set unrealistically high.
You're hurting the movement because of that.

Everything that is commercial in this country is regulated.
What is your point?
Why do you guys demonize this stuff right off the bat?
Don't you see every other commercial market?
Free market = consumer demands = competition = quality & transparency.

You guys automatically assume the world will be taken over by big scary corporations. Toughen the hell up.
As a consumer I have countless options for beer. For food. For cars. For fertilizer.
And you know what? I call their consumer lines and tell them exactly my expectations of their product, if those are not met.
If it's not met I don't buy their crap and I let em know clearly why, because that's how the business world works. I'm in control, not them.

Obviously we know the jailing won't stop from the federal level.
Does this mean we should fight legalization at the state level? No.
CA is going to set a precedent for the rest of the country just like they did with mmj.
Legalizing will therefore act to influence other states and legislation at the federal level. A great thing.

No, there is no large incentive by most rational people (especially in a bankrupt state such as CA with overflowing prisons and gang problems) in office to keep MJ-"criminals" in jail sucking up tax money that could be applied to people who actually deserve it. Sorry. Not buyin it. Tinfoilism.

Paper trails? C'mon, this is a joke. Go pay with cash if you're worried about paper trails.
Then talk to the thousands with medical records at a state level about paper trails. Weak argument, irrelevant.

You have to learn how to play this right, for the first time in a while we have an opportunity to legalize because politicians actually see the benefits.
Once the ball gets rolling it may stick.
You're fighting directly against all of that for the flimsiest of reasons.

And yes, the blackmarket will always thrive, which is assumed and therefore irrelevant. The point is, the vast majority of people will now not have to use the black market, incentives for murderous cartels & gangs to take over our country will be lessened, and prices within the black market will drop significantly. A great thing.

Leverage, are you for real, the decision is theirs, not ours. They won't allow any initiative to pass or make it to legislation if it doesn't meet their needs and wants, so no, we don't have leverage.

You do realize that most market's are dominated by big corporations. Most of the products you see come from the same corporation, just marketed under a different name. Also, the other commercial markets out there aren't as tightly regulated as cannabis will be. You'll see even less competition. Do you know how expensive it is just to compete in the alcohol industry if you are a small time brewer? That's just with moderate regulation. Think about what even stricter laws would do to cannabis. I'm sorry, but we don't live in a business world of laissez faire economics, if we did, things would be much better. There's too much government influence for laissez faire to work.

As for big corporations taking over the world, sorry bud, that already has happened. Ever heard of Monsanto, BP, R J Reynolds, General Motors, etc?

Yes, my standards are high, and yours should be too. Stop being so willing to bend over and take what's given to you. Our founding forefather sure didn't say, "Well, I guess we'll just let Britain keep fucking us and maybe we can have some privileges. YEY!" No way. Why are you so willing to just give in? It's not like this is the only time legalization is gonna be up for legislation and even if it were, there are still better options. Like the California Cannabis Initiative. Flawed too, but still much better than Prop 19.

Yes, California will set precedent, I've said this in many posts. It won't set the right precedent though if prop 19 is passed.

Look, I don't think people should be in jail for cannabis either. This bill isn't gonna stop that though. There will be new laws that spin off from this bill that will still put people in jail. Laws that couldn't exist before. Do you think they're just gonna give up that slice of the pie...no way.

I'm not talking about paper trails in the way you think of them now. I mean paper trails for taxes. If you were to sell cannabis out of your home, you probably aren't gonna write a receipt and file your taxes. These big businesses will. That's the paper trail I'm talking about. Why do you think it'll still be illegal for you to sell your own stash? They need a system to keep track of sales so they can collect taxes.

 

[Toyot4]

Who cares if there are new laws? Live by them, enjoy your life and don't get arrested. Living by the new laws imposed by prop 19 is not going to be hard to do.

whats the big deal?

 

[Bacchus]

The other thing that is good about this bill is that it acts to directly compete with murderous cartels by disrupting the high value of and incentive to participate in the MJ black market. ...

Amen to that brother. Anything to stop the murdering Mexican cartels is the right thing to do. IMO

if you think national or multinational corporations are going to break federal law and risk asset forfeiture under rico statutes you sir are living in a "fake world".

How many time do you have to say that before these knucklehead get the message!!!!

...According to the Rand Drug Policy Research Center, the price of marijuana could fall by as much as 80 percent if the drug were made legal for individual use.

Have you ever seen who funds this group? Bias, bias bias....

... I know quite a few growers up there that are reputable old head's that know everything that's going on. ...

Great references....you convinced me I think your tinfoil hat has sprung a leak

I make my own beer the federal limit per year is 200 gallons. I have been making it for 10+ years. Do you know how many times the DOJ has asked me about if I have exceeded my limit?? NONE.

The same thing will happen with homegrown MJ. A 25' limit means that I can grow 1-2lbs per year. Plenty for me and my family.

 

[CaptainTrips]

I really doubt tc2010 will have any sizable inpact on cartels. There is still going to be a black/grey market in cali if by some miracle tc2010 passes. The only way to deal with cartels is complete legalization of everything at all levels.

 

[Travieso]

Do you guys see what Dicks plan was all along. LOL

Oakland approves massive grows; 275k per permit ... Rich Lee Wins One
<HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #935f05; COLOR: #935f05" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->The Oakland City Council isn't waiting for November to begin jumbling the legal rules. The Council's Public Safety Committee approved licensing wholesale pot growing Tuesday, 3-to-1.

KALW News reporter Ali Winston reports from that meeting that sponsors say the main reason for the proposal isn't revenue, it's safety (as their name implies): residential electrical fires more than doubled in the city in the past three years, and officials think there's a good connection between that increase and unregulated pot "grow houses."

That said, the committee proposes that applicants pay fees of over $275,000 per operation.

Approved by the committee and full City Council, four large growers would be permitted in the first year.

One grower said he embraced regulation but argued that the plan would force medium- and small-scale cultivators to close down, move, or "go back underground into the dark ages."

The ordinance doesn't yet set a limit on the size of the large cultivators

The plan also would permit Oakland's four licensed dispensaries to sell to retailers across California.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=67931

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...nclick_check=1

Last month rich lee purchased a 20 acre plot to build his new growing facilities ...

 

[MoldyFrogToe]

Leverage, are you for real, the decision is theirs, not ours. They won't allow any initiative to pass or make it to legislation if it doesn't meet their needs and wants, so no, we don't have leverage.

You do realize that most market's are dominated by big corporations. Most of the products you see come from the same corporation, just marketed under a different name. Also, the other commercial markets out there aren't as tightly regulated as cannabis will be. You'll see even less competition. Do you know how expensive it is just to compete in the alcohol industry if you are a small time brewer? That's just with moderate regulation. Think about what even stricter laws would do to cannabis. I'm sorry, but we don't live in a business world of laissez faire economics, if we did, things would be much better. There's too much government influence for laissez faire to work.

As for big corporations taking over the world, sorry bud, that already has happened. Ever heard of Monsanto, BP, R J Reynolds, General Motors, etc?

Yes, my standards are high, and yours should be too. Stop being so willing to bend over and take what's given to you. Our founding forefather sure didn't say, "Well, I guess we'll just let Britain keep fucking us and maybe we can have some privileges. YEY!" No way. Why are you so willing to just give in? It's not like this is the only time legalization is gonna be up for legislation and even if it were, there are still better options. Like the California Cannabis Initiative. Flawed too, but still much better than Prop 19.

Yes, California will set precedent, I've said this in many posts. It won't set the right precedent though if prop 19 is passed.

Look, I don't think people should be in jail for cannabis either. This bill isn't gonna stop that though. There will be new laws that spin off from this bill that will still put people in jail. Laws that couldn't exist before. Do you think they're just gonna give up that slice of the pie...no way.

I'm not talking about paper trails in the way you think of them now. I mean paper trails for taxes. If you were to sell cannabis out of your home, you probably aren't gonna write a receipt and file your taxes. These big businesses will. That's the paper trail I'm talking about. Why do you think it'll still be illegal for you to sell your own stash? They need a system to keep track of sales so they can collect taxes.

We do have leverage on this and it is the only reason anyone is even considering legalization.

I disagree with your undue fear of anything aside from completely unfettered MJ markets, your demands are unrealistic as far as I'm concerned. You are trying to create an MJ market that will never exist by thinking you're able to circumvent basic aspects of the American marketplace which are extraneous to this situation, and in the end it only hurts the advancement of MJ legislation in our favor.

 

[Yes4Prop215]

go read the bill for yourself

Quoted from above.


I really fail to see your argument here unless you are under 21. It still allows the masses that are 21 and older to finally have a taste of freedom for once. It is not perfect, but definitely a step forward. You are not going to get it all at once no matter what. I myself will be voting YES!!!

Then try to see this. Under CURRENT laws people can already smoke and have a taste of freedom. Under current 215 laws, we already have large limits, people between 18-21 can smoke it, people can carry more than an OZ outside, no 5x5 limits, you can already buy, grow, and smoke weed here in california under current 215 laws. the new legislation just adds MORE restrictions to weed and barely gives us anything in return except lower prices.