Stressed plants and can't figure out why.

[Cat Jockey]

^^^ this guy has never used coco. i wouldn't listen to him.

Lol. Don't quit your day job, 'cause your mind reading abilities suck balls. I have a couple decades invested into this stuff (weed farming), and have used every substrate, including co-co, and every system (well, I haven't fucked with true aeroponics).

I used to kick out X,XXX rooted cuttings per 7-10 days from a 10,000 Watt Mother Room running 60+ strains. Yea, I ain't never done this shit before or used co-co.

Co-co is not really beginner friendly compared to other substrates and I guarantee you I can grow equal quality weed in many substrates and growing systems ...

Co-Co, overall, sucks-sucks, because of the problems it can introduce, lack of consistency between batches and it is NOT better than many other substrates. And like I said, your 'earth friendly' co-co comes from SWEAT labor ...

 

[stihgnobevoli]

sure you did brah...

It ain't some magic shit that grows 'better' weed. It is the result of someone scratching their head while looking at a big pile of coconut husks - a by-product (trash) of the coconut food/oil industry, and saying "What the fuck am I goign to do with all of this shit, and since I am a business wo/man, is there a way I can package it up and actually sell this crap?"

It is a pain in the ass, as well. Concerning the flushing of it that must be done, variances of that process in different batches, Cal and Mag lockout issues, etc. Anyone that says it grows the 'Best' weed is an intermediate grower at best and doesn't know wtf they are talking about. Okay, that's harsh, but there isn't a 'Best' substrate, There are some shitty ones, though ...

 

[Cat Jockey]

Oooh. Good one. Ya really got me there, I better just skidaddle on outta this thread and start licking my wounds. Lol.

More than happy to explain some of the problems new growers experience with co-co. Starting with the TWO biggest problems new growers face most often - overwatering and overfertilizing. Co-co increases this risk for new growers.

2007, huh? Maybe you were an old OverGrower, like myself, and have been around a while. If so, you understand how this all works, right? The vast majority of participants in 2015 on the weed forums are beginner and intermediate growers. With the explosion of medical laws, the loss of OG, Planet Ganja, etc., there are several experts that just aren't around anymore, but the ranks of the sophomore and freshmen growers swelled. Good on all of that, but there is a lot of bullshit and flat out incorrect information floating around on the forums these days. No insult to anyone, that is just the way things be, and every expert was once a beginner. No shame in the learning process.

As such, every now and again, 'fads' pop up, all the intermediate growers trying to impress the beginner growers pimp shit like co-co out, claiming it the best. These sophomore growers usually also hand out some Witches Brew of too many different nutes and supplements in the wrong proportions, and then the shit don't work to well for the beginner.

Co-co became the 'next best thing' several years ago. Add a couple pollen chuckers, like Rez (who wasn't that good of a grower) pimpin' co-co, etc., some intermediate growers acting like experts spouting off on the weed forums, and next thing you know, everyone thinks it is the shit. Co-co also adds fuel to the Cal/Mag Cult (lemme guess, you have gallons of Cal/Mag stored up in your garden), a waaaay overused and over recommended product. Botanicare's shitty Pure Blend Pro (remember when that shit became the rage?) fueled the Cal/Mag Cult, because their shit comes from the factory deficient in Ca & Mg. So then, you gotta give Botanicare more money to buy more shit from them just to make the original shit work right for Sweet Lady Jane.

But it doesn't just cost you money, it costs your plants 'cause Cal/Mag comes with a bunch of N, too (I think someone is making low N C/M these days - but you don't need a Cal/Mag supp with weed if your original nute mix is balanced and you are running the right pH range).

I haven't had a bottle of Cal/Mag in a growroom for years. Don't know if I could say that had I been using co-co. This is significant, because most people who use Cal/Mag are also running slight N toxicities. And the reason they are needing to 'fix' some type of Ca/Mg issues is because there is also a bunch of bullshit floating around about the proper pH levels for hydro and 'dirt' weed grows, like that stupid fuggin' blue pH chart of St0ney's that has been floating around for years.

I watched him make that. He was a mod on the old Hemp Cultivation forum (turned into Garden's Cure) and was having an Mg issue. The chart was a result of him 'fixing' his Mg issue (which was pH and PBP realted). And it is WRONG. And it is one of the reasons so many growers think they need a bottle of Cal/Mag.

I had a security issue a few years ago while sitting on a x,xxx plant garden. I wiped everything from every computer, phone, etc., that I had, so I don't have all kinds of neat-o pictures for you. But I did miss a CD in that process with a few pics on it.

This is what a 10,000W Mother Room looks like. That is a 24 site RDWC that is running 24 different strains on ONE nutrient solution. Not a bottle of Cal/Mag to be found in that garden, nor a Ca or Mg def on any plant in there. Looking down one row after I had just given a little maintenance haircut:



More plants in that same room. The ones you see in the back with the long stems are probably 7-8 years old in that picture. They spent most of their lives in 6" pots as Bonsai Moms. I grew them out for that room. Yes, you can obviously grow a Bonsai Mom bigger. Looks neat and unique, too, but not as high clone production due to the area of woody stem with no leaves:



Another shot of a couple plants that are many years old and were kept as Bonsais in 6" pots under CFLs:



Just another 'dirt' (PPV) Mother that was was fed a pH in the low 5's, and no Cal/Mag:



A 4X4 Ebb & Flow holding a bunch of strains in stasis with a bunch of Homer buckets lined around the tray, looking for some of that thowie:



Just taken care of some freshly rooted clones. Note the vicious guard dog on duty, keeping a sharp eye out for trouble, lol. RIP Bubbadog, RIP:



Just another tray of rooted clones, ready to go:



I was never dumb enough to ever take a picture of this Clone Room when it was full and rollin', but it held x,xxx cuttings:



A secret weapon for the veg and flower rooms:



2007, huh? Shit just ain't the same no mo' on da weed forums and hasn't been for years. Plus, my ass is over 40 now, too, so maybe that has something to do with it, but I come by every now and again, head straight to the Infirmary, and participate in a thread or two.

To try to help someone out and provide a different opinion on some things, like Cal/Mag, co-co, proper pH, etc. Now, you can use all of the co-co you want. Give me some co-co and pretty much any growing system, and I'll grow some digitty dank that will knock your dick in the dirt. But I can do that with a lot of different mediums.

I am suggesting newer, less experienced growers to stay away from co-co, as it isn't any better than many alternatives and can introduce unnecessary complications and pains in the ass for a newer grower. When that shit starts happening, growers get dejected and their harvest suffers tremendously in quality and quantity.

You are free to have a different opinion about that. But instead posting stupid-assed, childish pictures, how 'bout you present an argument as to why co-co is so fuckin' awesome overall and how it is the best thing for a newer grower to use.

And then I'll present a list of 3-4 alternative medias that will work just as well and be less of a potential pain in the ass.

 

[Cat Jockey]

Before we get another not-so-clever pic from whomever that was that was calling me an idiot to not be listened to, you are right at the line of deciding whether or not it is best to, umm, put this crop to sleep.

First, do you have access to more rooted clones that are completely healthy and have had roots showing for at least a week or so? If not, best to try to 'rescue' this current crop. Secondly, looks like an HPS but I assuming plants are still in veg?

But, you are right there where it actually might be in your best interest to start over. Once the cause(s) of these issues are identified and a new course of action is decided upon, there will be some 'recovery' period of days before the plants really get back into good vigorous growth patterns. When looking at your plants, it isn't just the leaves I am looking at. I am looking at plant structure - branching, nodes, mainstem size (and relative to branching size), etc.

You gotta Witch's Brew kickin' for a nutrient regime that I think needs to be re-evaluated. I rarely have had luck convoncing people that the best thing, in interest of their stash box, in cases like yours to start over.

They just don't want to believe me that if they can start over with healthy plants, even if they are a bit smaller and the process pushes their harvest back 2 weeks, they will have much more of a shit eating grin on their face at harvest time, for the harvest, both quality and quantity, will be better.

You are now, with everything I mentioned about those plants that I see in the state of having to polish a turd. It can be done, those plants turned around, but the only thing you will accomplish is harvesting 2-3 weeks sooner. But your quantity for sure, and potentially your quality, will be less than what I suggest.

Keep in mind, that is if you start getting those plants turned around. Again, it can be done, but you are new to this, so it isn't going to be as easy for you to do. Not being a dick, I've certainly fucked up plants in all kinds of ways. Just trying to get you, or some lurker, to consider ALL of your options to achieve the goal of harvesting the best and most bud you can on your first grow. If you have access to helathy rooted clones, it might push your harvest back a couple weeks, but you will have a better harvest if you put them ladies outta their misery and start fresh, including some training early on to get more weight per plant than the current plant structure will produce.

Provided you make some changes. Like getting an RO filter. With as cheap as they are these days, they are absolutely essential equipment. More importatn than a CO2 generator. I can go more into why. But first place you have to start, aside from your Witch's Brew, is your source water and at least knowing its pH and ppm.

 

[ghostmade]

What medium and nutrients do prefer CJ?

 

[Cat Jockey]

The medium would depend upon the system, and I don't know what the OP has going on other than a Botanicare substrate designed for self watering gardens. Maybe I missed it, but I don't know if he is hand watering or drip feed on a timer, etc. I would have a different opinion depending. And again, I ain't a total douche, I offer them as my opinions.

As far as nutrients the first place I like to take that discussion is the proper pH range for 'dirt' and hydro grows, and then build a regime from there. I also make decisions about the growing medium concerning the pH range I want the rootzone to fluctuate through and over what period of time.

Not trying to be evasive, but what I would use or suggest to someone new to all of this depends on the hand-watering, drip feed issue I don't know about with the OP. If he's handwatering, I would suggest a peat/perlite/vermiculite (PPV) mix with added perlite. That Fafard stuff in one of those pics is good stuff. I haven't used it for a couple years and it was only available a nursery wholesalers where you needed to be 'business' to buy from them. The 4 was the mix number and the p was for extra perlite.

There are multiple quality PPV mixes available to which you want to add more perlite. It is the easiest for newer grows to use, reacts well to the proper pH range MJ likes, a bazillion people have used it to grow kick ass weed, indoors and out, both proving it works and making information about growing weed with it everywhere. It is just a great place to start.

That doesn't mean I would personally always use it in every situation of 'dirt' farming, but in the vast majority I would. And I would not only use it, but it would be my go-to for ease of use and ability to produce top notch weed.

Sweet Lady Jane likes dry feet - to go through the process of getting pretty dry in the rootzone. Add more perlite to any PPV mix you buy. Not staying dry for any long period, but just getting there before watering again. I like a light, airy mix for this purpose. One the drains well, has plenty of air space for both moisture control and root expansion in the container, etc. From there, 10-15% runoff is MANDATORY every watering. What throws most people for a loop at this point, even those growing for a while, is that now you are simply playing with a hand watered, drain-to-waste hydro system and need to use the proper pH range.

I can go more into the pH with all of this, which is counter to mainstream thought (including manufacturers catering to weed growers and what they think they will buy), too.

If it is a drip feed, I would need more info before I would know what I would use. As I mentioned, RO is mandatory in 2015, for any size grow. It eliminates so many potential problems and actually makes the nutrients 'work' as intended by the mfg.

 

[Scott42012]

ph 7.9 ppm 310 from the tap. We are going to get it analyzed this week. A question about the water. If it is the water, wouldn't it have shown stress while they where in the cubes we got them in? The first few stayed in cubes for 4 or 5 days before transplant. I'm too dumb on the subject to know if that makes since.

I don't think you are being a douche CJ. I'm new to growing, I only know what I've read, and have very little hands on experience. Another thing is I don't have much control over this room. I'm working for knowledge basically. I don't think starting over is an option either. Unfortunately I'll be seeing this to the end it seems.

Drying out hasn't happened. We are having an issue with them being too wet.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

everyone doesn't run a million plants in a warehouse. some people just have 5 under a single bulb in a closet.

whatever the case this is clearly an overfeeding issue or a pH issue because his plants clearly show burned leaves and serious stress signals. doesn't take running x,xxx clones to know that. Coco is just as good as any other medium, the only learning curve i had was knowing how wet to keep it and how much was too much. aside from that it's just like using anything else. peat, plain old dirt, hydroton, rockwool, whatever.

symptoms are the same no matter what medium.

I have hardly experienced calcium issues, i have experienced mag issues. i do the same as i always did. i add some epsom salt till the issue is resolved. if it comes back i keep the epsom up at lighter feedings till i cut all nutes near the end.

never had a bottle of calmag in my life, couldn't even tell you what it looks like.

tap water tends to have a lot of calcium in it already, if my plants need more it's simply that a plant requires more than the rest. i don't go around checking my pH and all that jazz. it wouldn't make sense. all plants are in the same media getting the same thing. occams razor. obviously this one plant is just hungry.


same with this guys issues. clearly pH or too much food. simple solution check ph, stop feeding so much and flush excess. wait for plant to recover. continue feeding at a lighter dose. easy peazy.

 

[shredGnar]

ph 7.9 ppm 310 from the tap. We are going to get it analyzed this week. A question about the water. If it is the water, wouldn't it have shown stress while they where in the cubes we got them in? The first few stayed in cubes for 4 or 5 days before transplant. I'm too dumb on the subject to know if that makes since.

I don't think you are being a douche CJ. I'm new to growing, I only know what I've read, and have very little hands on experience. Another thing is I don't have much control over this room. I'm working for knowledge basically. I don't think starting over is an option either. Unfortunately I'll be seeing this to the end it seems.

Drying out hasn't happened. We are having an issue with them being too wet.

There is no such thing as too wet with coco.. this misconception needs to be put to rest. As long as there is ample oxygen it does not matter how wet or heavy the pots are.

In DWC systems the roots are suspended in water.. Would this be 'too wet'? No, because the water is highly oxygenated...

So how do we add oxygen with coco? By watering more often! It pushes out the old gasses and pulls in fresh o2 to the roots..

Again the weight of the pot is not important... the heavier the pot the more water it is holding and also less room to hold o2.. which means the heavier the pot the more your need to water/fertigate.

The symptoms you are seeing aren't from being 'overwatered' but instead under-oxygenated.. just like h3ad used to say before I believed him.

When I used to underoxygenate I would get lock outs just like you are seeing..


Water them 4 times a day and see what happens..ain't like you have anything else to lose bro..

 

[shredGnar]

Coco is not like peat... it holds enough o2 even when saturated for plants. That is why you can constantly water and they love it. In my experience with peat you do need wet/dry cycles to allow room for o2.

Not the case with coco!

Pure canna out of the bag..

 

[shredGnar]

Plus holyfuck .. where did you get this nutrient regimen?

That is a lot of stuff my friend... I would stick to the base nutes for now man.

Try h3ad's 6/9 formula or perhaps a coco specific 2 part like canna or h&g.

Focus on your environment and watering schedules then play with the additives..they truly are not necessary.

I get 2 a light consistently just using a&b nutes..

 

[Cat Jockey]

ph 7.9 ppm 310 from the tap. We are going to get it analyzed this week.

I got take care of a couple hours worth of stuff right now, but this is a huge Red Flag for me. The ppm isn't too out of whack (I am a HUGE RO/starting with 0 ppm advocate, though), but the alkalinity (and buffering capacity) is scaring me a bit more. This can cause you more problems and having you chasing your tail more than you will read about on the forums.

I'll come back in couple hours and post a bit more and reread your posts, etc.

 

[Scott42012]

Would it cause problems when they where in the cubes prior to transplant? The ones that stayed in cubes for a few days were nice and green the whole time. We watered them every 20 hours or so.

 

[HarvestMoon303]

Would it cause problems when they where in the cubes prior to transplant? The ones that stayed in cubes for a few days were nice and green the whole time. We watered them every 20 hours or so.

I would guess that the only difference is that most cubes hold a lot of water, for a long time. So, anything in a cube (particularly rockwool) will stay wet for a very long time, especially if they are seedlings or small plants.

To me, that means that the other plants dried out and the ones in cubes might have been spared beause of the moisture, but I'm just kind of skimming this thread, and a little high.

 

[open your eyes]

I'm new to growing but had the same in the early days.....tip burn cut your nutes down you'll see the change in a week

 

[Tonygreen]

Some good cal mag products out without nitrates now. Love them.

Your feed should be way simpler imho for a newer grower, simple works real good. I'd just grab a bag of maxi bloom and call it a day.
You have enough on your plate learning the medium and working your meters atm.

Co2 is probably a waste at the temps you are running as well.

Looks to me like you burned the shit out of the roots when you up potted and they slowed the uptake do to the damage, that would explain your wet pots not drying.

If your roots are locked out you can foliar feed cal mag to help em out some.

21 days? If you have clones Id cut losses and start over, this is gong to be a bitch to get finished with any decency though I hope you can for your sake. Good luck.

P.S. Your water sounds horrible dude
I would really encourage you to go the RO route if you dont have the cash atm get the maxi bloom and get a run or two in nice and easy.

 

[Cat Jockey]

Whatever your name is, I'm not really interested in a back and forth with you, as we are not at the same level concerning experiences and knowledge. You should do less thinking about how to salvage your pride and how to respond to my posts and more time open mindedly actually thinking about the things I am saying.

I have hardly experienced calcium issues, i have experienced mag issues. i do the same as i always did. i add some epsom salt till the issue is resolved. if it comes back i keep the epsom up at lighter feedings till i cut all nutes near the end.

No offense, but I do not trust your judgement on what an Mg def is. Further, I am quite familiar with the epsom salt routine. That is another product that has no business in a garden. If your plants are truly suffering an Mg def, epsom salts are a band-aid, not a cure.

Lemme guess - you run a pH around 5.8, the WORST point for Mg uptake, like most co-co users. If that is the case, big fuggin' surprise you need to fuck up your nute solution with epsom salts.

everyone doesn't run a million plants in a warehouse. some people just have 5 under a single bulb in a closet.

I consider myself an expert grower, but not the only one. Just like with doctors, physicists, geologists, heavy equipment operators -you name it-, not all experts agree on everything. There are differences of opinion. Mine, on some things, is in the minority. But I am not the only expert in that minority and often, the minority opinion is actually the more correct one.

You should stop with this whole tactic of trying to say I lack experience in areas in order to discredit my opinion. I had to post pics before, 'cause you told me I was lying. I said I had a few pics left I missed on a CD. I've done more than warehouse grows. I sure as hell didn't start out there. Like I said, I've done just about everything.

Before I had a x,xxx Clone Room, I was kickin' this sweet set-up in a closet under the stairs. This pic is 10-15 years old. It was my little clone box. Closed and open with a 15 W CFL and rockin' the awesome Jiffy Pellets, lol:



That is the closet where I started my adventure into Bonsai Moms. I kept plants no taller than about 16", including the 6" pot in that 16", for years, and then grew them out in 5 gallon buckets to 3' tall from the dirt. You can learn a shitpotfull keeping Bonsais for a few years.

This pic is 10+ years old. Original AK-47 in PPV and 5 gallon buckets. You can see I got the mix a little hot at one point, but the yellowing/flushing was intentional. Shit was pretty sticky - you can see the yellow leaf that is still supple bent over and stuck to the flower cause of the trichs:

(EDIT): You are confused in your other thread about Mg and tacoing. See the serrated tips curled up? That is 100% heat/humidity related in that room. Mostly humidity. I actually had to run a dehumidifier in that room.



This is another old pic in that same room. My first attempt at Ebb & Flow. I made the res and tray out of plywood and 2"X6"s and lined it with pond liner. That was a stupid fuckin' idea, lol, and I went plastic right after that. I was using Botanicare's shitty PBP, 'cause all of the 'forum experts', like you, said the shit was awesome. It wasn't. Guess what I added in that res?

Epsom salts

Used to keep a bag of that shit in my gardens and fuck up my nutrient solutions with it. You can see nutrient solution stress on those plants. E&F ain't that tough, but compound it with shitty nutes and bad advice on the internet and that is what you get. I was living at 10,000' and it could get cool in that room at night, hence the nice purpling you see on the leaves. Old School Colorado Sour Diesel (OG, Deisel and Chemdawg have strong Colorado ties - a tangent for a different thread ...):



I eventually grew the garden a bit at that place. Turned that flower room into a veg room. 2 weeks under the 400W on the right, 2 weeks under the thowie on the left, and then up to the Flower Room that had (4) 4x4 Ebb & Flow trays, each under a thowie. On an 8 week strain, I was harvesting one thowie every two weeks:



I've even dicked around with T5's and E&F:



See that RO filter that Bubbadog is on full alert gaurding? Everyone reading this put that on your non-optional lists, even if you are running some T5s in a closet:



I've also consulted on greenhouse grows. This guy had a college degree in plants and a 25 year successful house/office plant/tomato plant business on a couple acres. He sucked at weed farming. Seeing 9'+ tall MJ plants is cool and all, but that is some shitty weed in this picture. That's why I was asked to come in and take a look:



Yea, dude, I'm qualified to give advice on closet grows, too. Give it up.

Now, instead of figuring out some way to respond to this, maybe you should start scratching your head and asking me how come you and others run around calling Sweet Lady Jane a Cal/Mag whore with some strains really slutty about it and seem to have alleged Ca/Mg issues all the damn time that all ya'll fix with epsom and CalMag, yet I don't deal with that shit (I've had my hands on 80+ strains) and have healthy plants without one drop of Cal/Mag or one pinch or foilar feed of salt. Keep the wrong pH in the rootzone and that is where all of these bad-aids like epsom and Cal/Mag, new non- nitrate stuff or not, come from. Get it, dude?

I'm done responding to you and sidetracking the OP's thread.

 

[Cat Jockey]

Focus on your environment and watering schedules then play with the additives..they truly are not necessary.

I wanted to point out this piece of advice, as it is a good one. The environment is a waaaay overlooked component of it all. People only tend to think about light and that CO2 is some magic bullet. It is the WHOLE thing. Temp, humidity, air flow, rootzone temps/pH/etc.

That is what actually determines your nutrient regime - the environment and grow system. Plants under a 40 watt cfl in a 65 degree room with 10% humidity cannot handle anywhere near the nutes a tricked out thowie room plant could.

Nutrient regimes vary from room to room and system to system (RDWC vs Dirt as system examples). A concept completely counter to much you read on the forums that proclaims nute regimes are strain specific instead of ENVIRONMENT specific.

Realize, too, that nute companies want to sell you as much shit, at the highest price that they can get away with, regardless of necessity.

 

[Mikell]

Ask a simple question, get a simple answer eh?

Go to the coir sub-forum, if you haven't been scared off yet

FYI, I mentioned watering by weight thinking he had stunted root development, and completely forgot the mention of four weeks veg. Definitely do not advocate treating coir like soil unless I fuddlepuck up what I'm trying to say.

 

[Cat Jockey]

Ask a simple question, get a simple answer eh?

Go to the coir sub-forum, if you haven't been scared off yet

C'mon, now. I ain't done trying to scare people off co-co. Lol.

But I ain't trying to be a dick. As you point out, there is a whole sub-forum advocating the use of co-co for weed farming. On that sub-forum you will find claims about how awesome it is for weed, etc.

That's fine. That doesn't upset me. I do have a different opinion about co-co for both newer growers and for weed farming overall, though. And I will say a bit more about it all, both to make a counter opinion (that is what I give - my opinion, not a claim that I know every fuckin' thing there is to know about anything and anyone who disagrees with my opinion is wrong), and both to try to help the OP or a lurker perhaps at least pause for a moment and consider some things usually not presented, like some of the negatives of using co-co.

'Cause those are the kinds of things the OP won't find in that sub-forum. There are multiple ways to skin a cat. I don't know any of you, but I am willing to believe that people like ShredGnar pull a gram/watt using co-co. And if you are a co-co user, I'm not trying to say you are 'wrong/stupid/grow only shitty weed/etc.'

I'm just trying to present a counter point of view and argument. In the end, it is no sweat of my balls if nobody is persuaded by my arguments for leaving the co-co on the shelf of the grow shop. I'm not offended people like and use co-co. Please don't be offended if I don't like it and present some reasons why I don't like it.

To sum it up, if the OP has access to more rooted clones that are healthy, I am advocating he cull this crop and start fresh. Even if it pushes harvest back 2-3 weeks, it is more likely that the harvest will be of higher quality and quantity if he has a re-do. Fresh including a completely different approach to a nutrient regime, regardless of medium he uses, ditching the co-co and using something else like a quality PPV he adds more perlite to, and getting an RO filter ASAP. Those three things at the very least.

So, let me sum up my problems with co-co and why I think there better options for all weed farmers, regardless of skill level and experience.

• Potential overwatering. Counter to the claim you find about co-co, but tell a beginner they have a medium they cannot overwater, and, well ... No insult to any beginner. It is simply a fact that overwatering and over fertilizing are the two most common mistakes a new grower makes. I made both of them, more than once, in my own learning process.
• Which brings me to the next point. Potential over fertilizing. The risk is higher with co-co than with PPV, or other mediums, precisely because of some of the perceived 'benefits' that many claim of it, like its CEC rates, base pH range, potential for salt buildup, Ca issues, etc. This is important stuff I will cover below.
• It is only by using special nutes, epsom salts, etc., to 'fix' it that the shit is even usable without fucking up your plants.
• The shit may be more 'earth friendly' than harvesting peat, but I don't know that it is human friendly. There are not large tracts of coconut farms in the middle of Iowa. Or The Netherlands. Or pretty much any other First World country. I am not a fan of First World corporations gobbling up labor and resources of second and third world countries to sell at a huge markup. Give more of that money back to the people who need it. Greedy pricks. Can't avoid that kind of shit with just about anything we use in our lives, but since co-co is supposedly so 21st Century/Eco-Awesome/Rainbows, Butterflys & Unicorns, I wanted to point out that it ain't entirely such. It is the 'trash' of the co-co industry some entrepreneur wanted to sell and it involves First World Corporations selling overpriced products for profit off of the backs of dudes like this:

When co-co first came out, there was a lot more prep involved on the end user part. People would soak co-co in solutions of Clearex to remove salt and then sometimes in a Cal/Mag solution before using it, etc. Further, coconuts tend to like to be close to the SALTY ocean, and some people had batches of co-co that were loaded with salt that first had to be leeched out of it before the crap could be used. I'm sure mfgs have largely taken care of much of that by this point on their end - they had to or else people would stop buying it cause it was fucking up their plants.

I respectfully ask the co-co advocates to pause for a minute and think about this. About WHY it is mfgs started to push co-co on us to begin with. The shit didn't work consistently and without problems and needed to be 'fixed'. Yet they kept at it, even developing specialized nutrients to counter problems inherent in using co-co as a medium for weed.

That is all co-co nutes are - a band-aid to fix a growing medium that sucks for weed. Smart, scientificy type people work at places like Botanicare, so they figured out a way. Figured out a way to sell a product they buy half way around the world for dirt cheap and then sell you special, expensive & new nutes for it so it doesn't fuckup your plants. Why go through that whole process to being with when there are multiple mediums with which you don't have to?

Trendy? Because what'-his-name in this thread said it is the best shit there is for growing weed?

Don't buy the hype, even from other experts.

Obviously they knew they could sell the shit out of the 'sustainable/earthfriendly' aspect, and since most of the stuff comes from geographical ares that are not first world countries, they can buy the shit so cheap (it is pretty much the leftover trash of the coconut industry) and afford to ship across the fuggin' ocean (wasting all kinds of fuel - them shipping boats have some big fuggin' diesel engines burnin' gas, oil and putting out smoke)

Sri Lankan dudes pickin' cocunuts in a pic I swiped from another weed site aside, my actual biggest problem with co-co for weed farming is its base pH and the way it handles nutrients.

This is an old article by Dr. Tahir Mahmood that has been quoted on multiple sites. I just lifted it from a post in 2006, so it is at least ten years old, but that matters not for my point:

Properties
Coco coir is a proven best alternative to any growing medium.[L-the fuck-OL. Says who? What ever industry selling the shit you work for?] Its use as a growing medium outperforms any other medium used for growing vegetables, ornamentals and tree plants.[Hey Doc, what's your weed growing experience, cause preferred rootzone conditions, including pH, medium poriosity, moisture, etc., vary from species to species. I know what Sweet Lady Jane likes, and it ain't what you are trying to sell] Its soft structure promotes easy root penetration and healthy growth.[As do many other mediums] Coco coir is 100% environmentally friendly. It is a renewable resource that is consistent in quality. Coco coir has the best physical and chemical properties to promote better plant growth.[How much you get paid to write that sales copy, Doc?]

· Coco has high water-holding capacity. It can hold water up to eight times of its weight and release it over a period of time.[Not what MJ prefers. MJ likes dry feet and to go through the cycle of going from wet to dry. Not a medium that loads up with water to be continuously released over a period of time without the rootzone getting dry]

· Coco has ideal pH in the range of 6-6.7 [Ideal for what? That sure as fuck ain't ideal for Sweet Lady Jane in SOILESS mediums]

· It has excellent drainage and air porosity for better plant growth [Take any quality PPV mix, add more perlite to it, and the shit rocks for 'excellent drainage and air porosity for better plant growth']

· Coco is very low in EC and carries mostly potassium salts, which is an essential major plant nutrient [Yea. But I want to be in control of what nutrients are available in what porportions in the rootzone and different stages - not my growing medium, 'cause it ain't real smart]

· Cation exchange capacity is very good [Well, that is except with Ca. Further, cation exchange of Mg around 5.8 for MJ sucks balls, Dr. Co-co]

· Coco coir has some antifungal properties that help plants to get rid of soil borne diseases. It inhibits pathogens like Pithium [Pfft. So what?]

· Coco is very easy to re-hydrate after being dehydrated [So are a bunch of other mediums]

· It is a biodegradable source that degrades very slowly and has a life of three to four years [Still comes loaded with things that need to be 'fixed' so it doesn't fuck up your plants]

· Contains significant amounts of phosphorous (10-50ppm) and potassium (150-450 ppm) [I don't consider this to be a good thing - it takes away control over the rootzone from me. It also gives nute mfgs reasons to find more shit to take more money from us for]

...

Removal of Excess Salts (Untreated Source)

There are many untreated coco coir products available in the market, and a few that are already treated. For those untreated products, after soaking, add additional good quality water and let it stand for a few hours. This will bring out the excess of sodium and chloride in the solution. Drain the coco in order to get rid of the excess sodium and chloride. This coco is now ready for use. Use in containers or in bags for better growth of any kind of plants.

That last part is some of the shit people used to have to deal with so that the co-co didn't actually fuck up people's Sweet Lady Jane plants.

Think about that. The mfgs pushed co-co because they could make good money on it, including NEW nutrient lines, etc. More shit to sell all ya'll and try to get as much money out of your back pocket as possible. And the stoners kept up with it because its eco-friendly/sustainability made them feel all warm and fuzzy inside, NOT because it was some super-fuckin'-fantastic growing medium. In fact, it was a pain in the ass to deal with that required more work and money so it didn't fuck yo' shit up.

Co-co has to be 'fixed' before it can be used, and from there, you have to continue to 'fix' it as you use it. Although over all the way co-co absorbs and releases nutes is pretty good, it like to hold on to Ca. Think about that. Co-co is supposed to be so sweet for MJ, yet it will retain enough of the Ca you pour into it to actually fuck-up your plants unless you do something about it to counteract that process.

In addition to Ca PROBLEMS (how can the best MJ medium in the world be one that comes with inherent problems for growing weed that must be dealt with or else your plants will be fucked up?), Mg issues are notoriously found with co-co use. The biggest issue here is the pH. Big fuggin' surprise your Sweet Lady Jane plant is having issues in a situation where the rootzone is held around 5.8 and not allowed to start lower, like MJ actually prefers.

Further, the shit is prone to salt build, and salt build ups often manifest in MJ as a Ca or Mg def (usually Ca in my experiences), fueling the Cal/Mag Cult.

Now them nute mfgs got most all ya'll handing over more money for 'special' Cal/Mag they had to fix by making it low nitrate because people were starting to wake up to the fact of what I, and a small minority, have been saying for years about rampant and largely undiagnosed N toxicities in most gardens using Cal/Mag, including many 'experts' gardens.

Run the right pH, and none of that shit is necessary on 90%+ strains of weed out there.

If you haven't seen this chart that I typically refer to as 'that fuggin blue chart St0ney made', rest assured it has been around a long time and ended up getting plastered all over the weed forums. It somehow achieved dogmatic status as fact with very little proof or support.

Just Ctrl-C'ed all over the fuggin' place. Delete this shit from your hard drive, if it's there, 'cause the shit is junk, both because the 'suggested range' is wrong and uptake is not linear along a range, like his bar graph implies. Nutrients uptake at different rates and ratios at different rootzone pH levels. Big fuckin' surprise St0ney, a mod with a modest E&F grow had Mg issues he 'solved' with epsom salts in his res when he thinks the 'sweet spot' for hydro weed is 5.8:



This is a chart I believe is waaay more appropriate to follow for Sweet Lady Jane farming. Take a look at what is going on around 5.8 with Mg in soiless mediums, which co-co and PPV are:



Now, what is soil? Soil MUST have some clay and sand in it to actually be soil. Otherwise, it is a Soiless medium. That is not a minor point as the additional things in real soil that aren't in co-co or PPV affect the CEC stuff. PPV is a soiless medium, and even when you are handwatering a Homer bucket, it responds best when you use the RIGHT pH range - the one for soiless, whether soiless PPV in a Homer, or soiless hydroton in an Ebb & Flow, etc.

That's a mind blower for most - a Homer bucket of PPV with a good amount of perlite and 10-15% runoff each watering is actually a hand watered, drain-to-waste hydro system, NOT a 'dirt' grow. And the rootzone likes to be fed in the low 5s, to trend upwards from there as the PPV dries out and exchange occurs, exposing your roots to a pH range that gradually rises inbetween waterings. A good thing. And a good thing to start that process at least at 5.2-5.3. NOT 5.6, or 5.8, etc.

Co-co is soiless, but since it sucks as is as a MJ growing medium, there are 'special case' things that must be done with it, including pH and nute modification. Why do this? You can't change MJ - it will still prefer to run a range that starts in the low 5's. The fact that some decent weed can be grown only means that enough hoops were jumped through and enough money was spent to pull it off.

But why? Partly because the mfgs are sellin' that shit hard, and a bunch of people, usually NOT experts, made all kinds of claims about it on the weed forums without really knowing wtf they were talking about. Just like every other thing that pops up as the newest, latest, and greatest thing that is teh BEST thing for weed.

According, of course and usually, to masses of beginner and sophomore growers doing the Internet Forum Echo Chamber Pretending to be an Expert thing.

There is NOTHING inherently better about co-co as the OP will find direct and indirect claims of on the co-co sub-forum, and the shit actually comes loaded with issues that must be taken care of before and during use, though.

And although you can have some satisfying harvests, you will NEVER achieve full and maximum genetic expression by forcing MJ to grow in a pH range she does NOT prefer, like one has to do in co-co.

Not much more for me to say about my 'co-co opinion', lol. All ya'll digest it, if you read this far, and do with it what ya will ...