Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[led05]

Stem Centers

Stem Centers

So...

I feel like every time I harvest, my very best has a slight hollow center, surrounded by a beautiful cellulose layer (almost, almost like honeycomb) and stem wall but a definitive hollow core, surprisingly even and about a paper clip in diameter.

People used to love the "hollow", probably still do, but many realize what it means, deficiency, mainly Ca I/ we say ... is this really right... maybe a paper clip hollow center?

I believe this to be true for C3 annuals, or is it 4 SLO... a joke bud

Did u use my soil recipe for starts and tree pots for perfect roots? I'm having dome issues on a few lemon trees, need help, serious



My point is often missed, I believe a small opening in the stem indicates a near perfect nutritional flow, what say u....

 

[reppin2c]

Slow I think I need to add 2.23 ppm B. I'll retest in the spring when I til in the cover crop. I have some soil with good numbers I'm gonna spread and 100 yards of top soil coming from T-ride....its pretty ritzy lol.

Led they say that hollow stems are a B issue. But Ca/B you know. Im pretty sure DJ short started the hollow stem thing and then people selected for plants that didnt utilize Ca or B well.

 

[growingcrazy]

I wouldn't hesitate to triple that quantity... I have applied as high as 8ppm without issue.

 

[EasyGoing]

Yea, B isn't even getting started until over 4ppms.

 

[EasyGoing]

My point is often missed, I believe a small opening in the stem indicates a near perfect nutritional flow, what say u....

I have never agreed with this. Solid stems for the win IMO. I think without a doubt, hallow stems would be bad for sure. Just a pin hole...... Maybe you are on to something.

 

[jidoka]

Slow I think I need to add 2.23 ppm B. I'll retest in the spring when I til in the cover crop. I have some soil with good numbers I'm gonna spread and 100 yards of top soil coming from T-ride....its pretty ritzy lol.

Led they say that hollow stems are a B issue. But Ca/B you know. Im pretty sure DJ short started the hollow stem thing and then people selected for plants that didnt utilize Ca or B well.

sulfur goes in now right. with that ec you got no microbes to kill. so pH down right now and build micros hard after that.


tainio now has a p solubilizing bacteria

 

[slownickel]

Doki,

Never had ANY luck with sulfur. Maybe some sulfuric acid, but powdered or pelletized i have never seen change.

Remember that one cation always pushes out another cation.

Had there been a real analysis using the correct procedures, who knows, maybe all that Ca is available! Doubt it. In ag guessing is for losers,so many folks are willing to guess on big issues. Drives me nuts.

Maybe we should sell those magic 8 balls that tell you yes or no.... probably get better answers than that K meter. LMAO

 

[slownickel]

So...

I feel like every time I harvest, my very best has a slight hollow center, surrounded by a beautiful cellulose layer (almost, almost like honeycomb) and stem wall but a definitive hollow core, surprisingly even and about a paper clip in diameter.

People used to love the "hollow", probably still do, but many realize what it means, deficiency, mainly Ca I/ we say ... is this really right... maybe a paper clip hollow center?

I believe this to be true for C3 annuals, or is it 4 SLO... a joke bud

Did u use my soil recipe for starts and tree pots for perfect roots? I'm having dome issues on a few lemon trees, need help, serious



My point is often missed, I believe a small opening in the stem indicates a near perfect nutritional flow, what say u....

Obviously a small pin hole is better than a gaping pipe. And who knows, maybe you have a pheno that won't close up.... or.... maybe you didn't have enough B. (this is a B def) not Ca. However, with that said, you could have adequate B and not enough Ca to get B uptake and you will still have hollow stems.

Remember. You can NEVER recuperate from a Ca deficiency. EVER. You can recover from all other deficiencies, Ca no.

In perennials and annuals, hollow stems are an issue. Never really thought it through on C3 vs C4. I will start separating my observations. Good point!

When I see a tree cut down, I always look at the centers for core rot (B deficiency) so that I can tell what is happening in the soil in that area.

Not sure I saw your perfect root recipe. Post it again.

Love to help you with your lemons!

 

[jidoka]

Doki,

Never had ANY luck with sulfur. Maybe some sulfuric acid, but powdered or pelletized i have never seen change.

Remember that one cation always pushes out another cation.

Had there been a real analysis using the correct procedures, who knows, maybe all that Ca is available! Doubt it. In ag guessing is for losers,so many folks are willing to guess on big issues. Drives me nuts.

Maybe we should sell those magic 8 balls that tell you yes or no.... probably get better answers than that K meter. LMAO

Factored into my thinking is the fact that all of the cations combined do not "overfill" the Cec. If they did I would agree with you. The fact that there is still a little room for H on the Cec sites encourages me

Reppin is a big boy. He will make up his own mind and you or I will learn something

My biggest concern is can we get o2 in that soil or not. If we can't minerals don't mean shit

I love me magic 8 ball. It got me through more than one t/f test

 

[Limeygreen]

Elemental sulfur (dust) can help acidify soil if you have the microbes but the S will bind with your Mg and Calcium, if your saturation of ca is below 65 or so you will leach out calcium with S before any Mg, this is not the problem for you.

I would agree though as I have dumped 50 kg on roughly and 30 x 30 area to see if I could get the pH down for a chance to grow acid loving crops, problem was it didn't move the pH in two years aside from a couple 0.1 up, whereas where I did gypsum, potassium sulfate and rock phosphate (calphos and Spanish river carbonatite) the pH dropped a couple .01. I tried mixing in a few bales of sphagnum peat moss to bump up some organic matter at the same time (organic matter is 5 in my clay soil). Even with a cec of 14, calcium at 75% and Mg at 20% the pH didn't go down. Either I didn't get the sulfur where it needed to be for the microbes to turn it into sulfuric acid (this is my guess as I just top dressed when I should have tilled it in 6 inches) or there is another trick to it.

The only reason sulfur can lower pH is the bacteria than can process it turn it into sulfuric acid, it can take 3 months (in every aspect of ideal) to a year to see some change so it can also be easy to over do it and go too far, I would suggest working it in 6-8 inches if you are going with sulfur but do not apply more than once a year. If you're noticing your Ca saturation drop take into account your sulfate in gypsum if you plant to apply that, although calcitic lime is a great one to add when sulfur isn't needed.

 

[slownickel]

Factored into my thinking is the fact that all of the cations combined do not "overfill" the Cec. If they did I would agree with you. The fact that there is still a little room for H on the Cec sites encourages me

Reppin is a big boy. He will make up his own mind and you or I will learn something

My biggest concern is can we get o2 in that soil or not. If we can't minerals don't mean shit

I love me magic 8 ball. It got me through more than one t/f test

If you want to aerate a soil, run a subsoiler in 36 inches or so and with a real soil analysis treat the soil for 36 inches of depth discing in gypsum finishing up with raised beds to maximize air space.

Get enough gypsum on there and forget about pH.

Or forget all of that and do what all the Colorado alfalfa guys do and drown the place in sulfuric acid.

 

[jidoka]

Like I said, Ima choose option 3...let my friend, who I respect, make up his own mind. And if shit goes sideways be there to help if I can

 

[slownickel]

Like I said, Ima choose option 3...let my friend, who I respect, make up his own mind. And if shit goes sideways be there to help if I can

Let me understand this. Someone posts their lousy analysis in this thread, I make comments and you are picking the options? LMAO.

And then if they screw up, you will be there to help? Maybe if you guys all got together, you could run those K meters in series and get a super K meter...

 

[EasyGoing]

I know this is off topic, sorry.

Anybody know a concentrate artist that is good, and doesn't already have a legal business? Please let me know in PM's. SlowN?

Carry on please.

 

[jackspratt61]

Jack,

The only way to run a mix like I am discussing organically, is to build it up with enough organic P PRIOR to planting. Trying to catch up with liguid bone meal works, but is expensive and large quantities are often needed.

This is why it is so critical to have a real set of numbers, make a real plan, work the plan and then check your analysis from time to time to see if you are getting where you want to go.

In regards to light weight mixes...I've been submitting my soil samples without any aeration added. The results show cec values in the mid 30's. If I add aeration components after testing what effects does that have to cec,overall nutrient availability,ph etc.? Currently am using perlite only at 33%.

Am I correct in not testing an inert component (perlite)in the initial mix?

 

[jidoka]

Dang it...my magic 8 ball said wire them in parallel

 

[reppin2c]

Jack- I sift my samples and weigh them as is for ammendments

So yes I am a big boy and even when people tell me exactly how to do it, i find a simpler way. Sometimes I have to learn the hard way as I am this morning after trying to drink with my mom last night. Seen alot of people fail and I've kept up many times...there are no winners.

I'm gonna add alot of amendments, till deep as I can and we will see the results. I'm pretty sure I will be just fine and some people will learn something. I will for sure I just hope it's not a hard lesson, i hate those ones. Either way I'm not gonna let the door hit me on my way out. This CO gig is coming to an end. Im gonna get what i can while the getting is good.

Edit The best part is my employee is headed to work with the excavation crew. I'll be left with my wife, buddy's wife and father in law to clear the trees on the hemp plot. My father in law is older then the land were clearing, he's getting dimetia and I may have to put him down lmao

 

[slownickel]

Had a request on how I calculate base saturations using the M3 and AA@8.2 (which was discussed before, but what the heck).

It is real simple.

I only utilize the Ca number from the AA@8.2 which is the only element which will set up for the most part in carbonate form. K, Mg and Na from M3 are utilized along with the Ca from AA@8.2

I don't use H estimates, instead I lime to fix the pH if necessary and aim at 80 to 87% Ca depending on whether the soil is sandy or heavy....

 

[MountZionCollec]

Following.

 

[HappyTreeFarm]

Yea, B isn't even getting started until over 4ppms.

The B levels don't match up from logan to spectrum. i had a B level of 1.5ppms from logan and when i tested the same soil at spectrum the B levels were 5ppms