You have about 1000 variables to play with. Really decide what it is that is important to you. Write that shit down. Then work on it. Every. Single. Day.
You'll get the hang of it, it becomes second nature after a couple years.
SE's vertical basement
- Thread starter SmokinErb22
- Start date
You have about 1000 variables to play with. Really decide what it is that is important to you. Write that shit down. Then work on it. Every. Single. Day.
You'll get the hang of it, it becomes second nature after a couple years.
I feel your pain bud, I ran into the same thing with my last run. Not enough time to spread around and I can only veg in my small bedroom closet so I can't crank out gobs of little ones. I don't want to be captain obvious here but have you already scooted all your plants back to the far wall, even on both sides and then turned off two bulbs? Regardless, good to get an update on this grow and hope you're doing well otherwise. 
SmokinErb22
Member
I need to get organized for sure. I think a lot of things would change if I would just start writing things down.
Really though, outside of the amount of work... I'm really happy with the whole set-up. For the first time ever I'm perfectly happy with my temps... both day and night. 81f on, 73f off. That's the best day/night differential I've ever had and it really shows in the bud production. I'd love to have 75f/65f temps, but i'll take it.
RH is steady about 50%... don't really mess with it too much because all of my plants share the same air and are all in different stages. I can't do 70% RH til the end of stretch and then drop it when half the plants are stretching and other half are in full flower.
I'm leaning more and more towards large plants daily. I'm 90% sure my new goals are going to be simplicity. Large bushes, 30 gal smartpots, organic soil with some drippers.
DHF freakin' told me! He told me that it would be a lot easier if I grew fewer, larger plants. But i was so wrapped around the "plant count dictates yield" concept that worked for me so well on a smaller scale. I noted it, but had no idea what was really ahead of me. Should have listened sooner.
Not giving up. Just throwing in the towel on 300+ plants... that's just a machine that's too hungry for me to feed. I've got some ideas in my head and some extra equipment still laying around unused. Maybe one day when my veg room is up to par we'll try another version of these racks.
Really though, outside of the amount of work... I'm really happy with the whole set-up. For the first time ever I'm perfectly happy with my temps... both day and night. 81f on, 73f off. That's the best day/night differential I've ever had and it really shows in the bud production. I'd love to have 75f/65f temps, but i'll take it.
RH is steady about 50%... don't really mess with it too much because all of my plants share the same air and are all in different stages. I can't do 70% RH til the end of stretch and then drop it when half the plants are stretching and other half are in full flower.
I'm leaning more and more towards large plants daily. I'm 90% sure my new goals are going to be simplicity. Large bushes, 30 gal smartpots, organic soil with some drippers.
DHF freakin' told me! He told me that it would be a lot easier if I grew fewer, larger plants. But i was so wrapped around the "plant count dictates yield" concept that worked for me so well on a smaller scale. I noted it, but had no idea what was really ahead of me. Should have listened sooner.
Not giving up. Just throwing in the towel on 300+ plants... that's just a machine that's too hungry for me to feed. I've got some ideas in my head and some extra equipment still laying around unused. Maybe one day when my veg room is up to par we'll try another version of these racks.
damn this setup had me stoked, bummer about the cloning bottleneck
I kinda thought you were pushing your luck going over 99. mabey coco and some trees would be a better route. hope you figure it out bud.
I kinda thought you were pushing your luck going over 99. mabey coco and some trees would be a better route. hope you figure it out bud.
SmokinErb22
Member
Well, all I got to say is... Karma's latest line is absolutely fire. And I had entirely too much of it. My smoking habit has been getting a little out of control haha, that's partially to blame for my absence here....
The other part is my PC took a dump on me and I just replaced it a few days ago.
That said, I'm getting my smoking back under control (1/2 oz daily...) to something reasonable (2g/day) and really determined to take my grow to another level....
What I mean by this is that I'm a mediocre gardener, at best. I've been going about this the wrong way.. I've been trying to get bigger yields (via lights + space), when I need to be focusing on being a better gardener.
Running small containers has really let that aspect shine through.... I don't want to say I suck... but I fucking suck. I can't diagnose a plant deficiency barely. I have no idea how to mix a proper organic soil (I just use recipes and "wing it" modifications based on what I can acquire)... or rather, I have no UNDERSTANDING (I can MIX the soil just fine) of how different mixtures affect the plants.... there's a lot I can improve on.
Now growing larger plants in large no-till containers is going to allow me to focus less on transplanting/cloning/mixing never-ending batches of soil and focusing on what the plant has to say. I've grown several cuts 3-4 times and I still couldn't tell you how much they stretched precisely, couldn't tell you how long they flowered for, or anything really.
I've had so much herb on my hands, I've been smoking myself stupid. Putting an end to that... It's 9pm and I've smoked roughly a gram today. Amazing how much more energy I've had today.
Here's some pics of some of the stuff since I last posted...
The other part is my PC took a dump on me and I just replaced it a few days ago.
That said, I'm getting my smoking back under control (1/2 oz daily...) to something reasonable (2g/day) and really determined to take my grow to another level....
What I mean by this is that I'm a mediocre gardener, at best. I've been going about this the wrong way.. I've been trying to get bigger yields (via lights + space), when I need to be focusing on being a better gardener.
Running small containers has really let that aspect shine through.... I don't want to say I suck... but I fucking suck. I can't diagnose a plant deficiency barely. I have no idea how to mix a proper organic soil (I just use recipes and "wing it" modifications based on what I can acquire)... or rather, I have no UNDERSTANDING (I can MIX the soil just fine) of how different mixtures affect the plants.... there's a lot I can improve on.
Now growing larger plants in large no-till containers is going to allow me to focus less on transplanting/cloning/mixing never-ending batches of soil and focusing on what the plant has to say. I've grown several cuts 3-4 times and I still couldn't tell you how much they stretched precisely, couldn't tell you how long they flowered for, or anything really.
I've had so much herb on my hands, I've been smoking myself stupid. Putting an end to that... It's 9pm and I've smoked roughly a gram today. Amazing how much more energy I've had today.
Here's some pics of some of the stuff since I last posted...
SmokinErb22
Member
These are all pretty much (or maybe completely so) Karma Genetics gear. Mostly the latest white OG line... off the top of my head - polar bear, old grandpa scratch, white snake, white biker, brotherhood OG, c99 x biker kush
This is the disappointing run. Nothing in the genetics... in fact despite the utter neglect these received I'd put anything in here a 7/10. The disappointment is with myself, all I had to do was transplant these one more freakin' time into a larger container and they'd have thrived probably.
all pics should be pre-harvest, all fan leaves clipped. ill label anything I can identify...
Old grandpa scratch:
White biker or maybe white snake:
Brotherhood OG:
polar bear:
c99xbiker
This is the disappointing run. Nothing in the genetics... in fact despite the utter neglect these received I'd put anything in here a 7/10. The disappointment is with myself, all I had to do was transplant these one more freakin' time into a larger container and they'd have thrived probably.
all pics should be pre-harvest, all fan leaves clipped. ill label anything I can identify...
Old grandpa scratch:
White biker or maybe white snake:
Brotherhood OG:
polar bear:
c99xbiker
SmokinErb22
Member
Most current pic:
I'm currently running 2kw rather than just 1. the plant on the rear right was a hermie and was killed. replaced it with a couple more plants outta veg. plants are approx 4ft - 5ft tall (from the soil, not including container). only 2-3 weeks in flower I believe. Again no clue when I started flowering.
should be a mix of Karma's jack o nesia, trichome jungle larry smurf, blue amnesia x dream lotus, super lemon haze x blue sat. 2.2
I'm currently running 2kw rather than just 1. the plant on the rear right was a hermie and was killed. replaced it with a couple more plants outta veg. plants are approx 4ft - 5ft tall (from the soil, not including container). only 2-3 weeks in flower I believe. Again no clue when I started flowering.
should be a mix of Karma's jack o nesia, trichome jungle larry smurf, blue amnesia x dream lotus, super lemon haze x blue sat. 2.2
SmokinErb22
Member
I don't know how many of you are aware of this, but I found a really easy way to make a pretty nice organic soil mix...
BuildASoil.com
I'm really low on amendments and can't really afford full bags of everything I need, so I was looking for a solution, something similar to dank.frank's NSPB:FLF that I ran a while back - everything you need mixed into one bag, ready to go.
Well BuildASoil offers a cootz mix that can be purchased in various sizes to be mixed into x-amount of soil. Got the large (for 10 cu ft) box for $55. More expensive in the long run, but when its tight and you need to get a batch mixed...
BuildASoil.com
I'm really low on amendments and can't really afford full bags of everything I need, so I was looking for a solution, something similar to dank.frank's NSPB:FLF that I ran a while back - everything you need mixed into one bag, ready to go.
Well BuildASoil offers a cootz mix that can be purchased in various sizes to be mixed into x-amount of soil. Got the large (for 10 cu ft) box for $55. More expensive in the long run, but when its tight and you need to get a batch mixed...
GoozMan
Member
Hey man good luck with the new setup, and post more often so you don't have to write things down! Its more fun that way, plus you don't have to worry about losing your records. I think I counted 7 plants in your picture? What's your goal for this run? Plants look perfect size for this stage, right? Looking forward to watching your super chunky harvest.
And Jesus dude, 1/2 oz per day! Yeah definitely gotta cut that back. How were you getting anything done?? You'd have to be smoking during all your waking hours!
And Jesus dude, 1/2 oz per day! Yeah definitely gotta cut that back. How were you getting anything done?? You'd have to be smoking during all your waking hours!
Don't worry about the date you put the plants into flower. Since you are organic you don't flush right?
So now it is just a matter of when to take your plants. Instead of scoping the plants and damaging the buds just watch them. They should go dull white when they are about ready. Kind of like galvanized steel looks when it gets wet. When this happens check to see if the plant slows down on how much water it needs. It should need less water. That is when you start to scope the plant to get the amount of amber you want.
Big plants is the way to go if you have time issues every day. Less time tending big plants. And if your cloning is off big plants are the way to go. Big plants also help with plant count numbers as well.
One of the drawbacks to big plants is media size though. Needs a bigger pot or you must water more often. If you pot is to small you will see it with what looks like over feeding. You get the clawed leaves. This is caused by the media drying out to much and the media balance getting out of balance. You won't be able to fix the damaged leaves but watering more often will stop it from continuing further. If this happens you need to water quite a bit to flush any build up out.
So now it is just a matter of when to take your plants. Instead of scoping the plants and damaging the buds just watch them. They should go dull white when they are about ready. Kind of like galvanized steel looks when it gets wet. When this happens check to see if the plant slows down on how much water it needs. It should need less water. That is when you start to scope the plant to get the amount of amber you want.
Big plants is the way to go if you have time issues every day. Less time tending big plants. And if your cloning is off big plants are the way to go. Big plants also help with plant count numbers as well.
One of the drawbacks to big plants is media size though. Needs a bigger pot or you must water more often. If you pot is to small you will see it with what looks like over feeding. You get the clawed leaves. This is caused by the media drying out to much and the media balance getting out of balance. You won't be able to fix the damaged leaves but watering more often will stop it from continuing further. If this happens you need to water quite a bit to flush any build up out.
I think 28 plants in a 3-4k stadium (about 10-11' in total length) is a really good number. This is 2 tier on each side with 7 plants per row.
I followed JonJaffer for some time on overgrow doing this very efficiently with his suspended SWC stadium. He wasn't vertical at the time, but with horizontal wings bent upwards, but had a bubblegum variety that gave him 2lb per light in very fast flower period.
I'd monocrop that whole thing.. automate and v-trellis diagonally from the top corner of the room to an area in the middle under the lamps. Keeps everything nice to supported, and wait for the yields to roll in.
NorthernFarmer's high count stadiums were impressive, but that's a lot of plants to manage. 28 is a great number and typically only required a short 2 week veg or so to achieve the results you are aiming for.
To expand on what Ich said, I don't typically scope my plants either. I just watch them closely and normally er on the side of caution by letting them go longer. Degradation in my opinion that many speak of is nonsense.. you'd have to let a plant go a long long time to see quality loss. Lots of newbs & amateurs a like are likely in disagreement with me when I say watch the hairs, but I'm not referring to the color of them. If you watch your buds develop and swell you'll see a point in which the hairs no longer are erect on the flower, but actually become one with the bud. Almost as if the flower has swelled into the space the hairs once took up. This is typically a good indication of a proper harvest window. I don't typically need to scope my plants... I can visually tell by observing the swell/hairs. That, and they do take on a amber/ripe color that is visible to the naked eye without magnification.
Your mileage may vary, but this is my experience. The majority of growers chop too early. I'm surprised by the number of growers I see taking things down at 50-55 days. 65-80 days is typically well worth the wait despite breeder posted flower times.
I followed JonJaffer for some time on overgrow doing this very efficiently with his suspended SWC stadium. He wasn't vertical at the time, but with horizontal wings bent upwards, but had a bubblegum variety that gave him 2lb per light in very fast flower period.
I'd monocrop that whole thing.. automate and v-trellis diagonally from the top corner of the room to an area in the middle under the lamps. Keeps everything nice to supported, and wait for the yields to roll in.
NorthernFarmer's high count stadiums were impressive, but that's a lot of plants to manage. 28 is a great number and typically only required a short 2 week veg or so to achieve the results you are aiming for.
To expand on what Ich said, I don't typically scope my plants either. I just watch them closely and normally er on the side of caution by letting them go longer. Degradation in my opinion that many speak of is nonsense.. you'd have to let a plant go a long long time to see quality loss. Lots of newbs & amateurs a like are likely in disagreement with me when I say watch the hairs, but I'm not referring to the color of them. If you watch your buds develop and swell you'll see a point in which the hairs no longer are erect on the flower, but actually become one with the bud. Almost as if the flower has swelled into the space the hairs once took up. This is typically a good indication of a proper harvest window. I don't typically need to scope my plants... I can visually tell by observing the swell/hairs. That, and they do take on a amber/ripe color that is visible to the naked eye without magnification.
Your mileage may vary, but this is my experience. The majority of growers chop too early. I'm surprised by the number of growers I see taking things down at 50-55 days. 65-80 days is typically well worth the wait despite breeder posted flower times.
SmokinErb22
Member
The plant count has definitely changed since that last picture, not really sure how many I have flowering. I'll check that out tonight and post back. My goal for this run is to have the room actually full
Pretty sure I have enough plants in veg.... just gonna transplant em into 7 gallons as soon as I get some more amendments in the mail this week (due to arrive Saturday). And see, the problem with my smoking is just that. I wasn't getting anything done. Just smoking off and on all day. I pretty much hibernate during the winter months and don't go anywhere/get anything done. I've cut back to about an 1/8th oz per day, so my head is MUCH less foggy and I'm starting to come out of this funk.
The last thing you talked about has lit up some lightbulbs in my head. I'm about to post some pics, I think my Jack O Nesia is a dead ringer for what you're talking about "looks like overfeeding" I mean they're in 5 gallons but they're pretty bushy.
I'll be striving for some No-till containers... for the size of plant I want (the same size my plants are now) I feel like I'll need 15-20 gallons each to run no-till. And yeah, no flushing with my soil. Straight water start-to-finish. I'm in the process of building a tea brewer, just need to find a 55 gal drum locally. The res I tried to use to build it was just too short and wide and wasn't getting properly oxygenated.
I'm decent about when to harvest. I stopped scoping a while back and have kinda learned to just see the color with the naked eye. As long as the HPS is off its pretty easy. What I need to learn though, is what I like in terms of trich color. I've taken em at various points between 1% amber to 50% amber, but... I've not taken a single cut and harvested it at different point (1%, 25%, 50%) and compared the differences.
I feel like for the past 10 years I've just been screwing around. I've never really taken that step that crosses the line between a hobby grower and I don't want to say "professional" but for lack of better wording.... it's time to step over that line and do it right.
I agree with you on just about every aspect. I don't think I'll end up running two tier, though. 5 foot plants only leave 6" of headroom once you add the container to it. That's what I think I wanna aim for.
I may change up my layout a little and opt for multiple donuts for the larger plants. Right now they're kinda set up in an oval with 2kw blasting side by side. Stadium, with plants on the ends I guess?
And I completely understand what you mean. I don't even start looking at trichomes until most of the pistils have receded into the bud. Take a look at my Old Grandpa Scratch a couple weeks before harvest and right before harvest.
The pistils are completely swallowed up in bud when I harvest. There's times when I've had to chop early, but not usually.
SmokinErb22
Member
Now, here's the latest in my garden. These were just taken last night.
Karma Genetics Jack O Nesia, same pheno:
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Super Lemon Haze x Blue Satellite 2.2
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Not sure, would need to check. Either Larry Smurf or Blue Amnesia.
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Karma Genetics Jack O Nesia, same pheno:
Super Lemon Haze x Blue Satellite 2.2
Not sure, would need to check. Either Larry Smurf or Blue Amnesia.
SmokinErb22
Member
Can't really tell what these are yet. The last one is Jack O Nesia, the one that I said was a dead ringer for what Ichabod was describing as looked like over-fert. I feel like 5 gallons might be a bit small for these girls.
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yeh that looks like it. shows up five to six weeks into flower when they are drinking pretty heavly. it is a ph thing in the media from when it dries out. makes it so that the nutes that the plant needs are not available. then it must draw the other more available ones up first to get what it needs. that is my guess as to why it causes the claw. i just know for sure it is from to small of a pot with not enough watering. corrects itself by watering more often.
SmokinErb22
Member
Thanks a lot man. I do admit that my soils get dry enough to the point the plants wilt occasionally. I've been working towards a smaller, daily watering, like a quart of water a day or something. Wanna get larger containers all around in general, I'm trying to find a nice medium between size and price. I mean I could just get 25-30 gallon pots.. but that's a lot of freakin' dirt. I like the 7 gallon ones I have now, but I feel like 10 gallon pot is gonna be the sweet spot for me...... and then some freakin' drippers. I have no idea why I haven't set up an irrigation system yet. I've got a pump and a timer. All I need is some PVC for a mainfold and some hose/drippers.
Haven't looked at pH in a couple years now, so I never would have caught that... I just depend on the biological life to maintain it for me.
I'll definitely stay on top of my watering the next couple weeks and see if they're not looking any better.
Haven't looked at pH in a couple years now, so I never would have caught that... I just depend on the biological life to maintain it for me.
I'll definitely stay on top of my watering the next couple weeks and see if they're not looking any better.
Honestly.. I haven't really found the benefit for PVC manifolds for grows our size outside of just looking nice.
Get yourself a big mag pump, 3/4" tubing (instead of pvc), 1/4" barb connectors, and some 1/4" line and go to town. It's flexible and quick & easy to whip together in whatever configuration/layout you want. Can easily be altered to accommodate future changes.
I built some really nice square manifolds for a buddy using 1/4" barb connectors that thread into the PVC manifold, only to have some of the barbs snap off.. pain in the ass.. you've then got to drill them out, and then they are forever stuck in the manifold if you glued it all together like I did.
Don't see the benefit. Maybe I'm missing something. Better flow with PVC? If you were running against a wall or tables perhaps it would look nice and clean. Octo manifolds would eliminate the the fragile barbs that I'm referring to, but I just don't see it doing anything I can't do with a hole punch and some tubing in a quarter of the time.
Check out Smurf's Lemon thread. - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=298512
Like in this pic. He's said he's had some flow issues in far corners, but he's also got a pretty big garden he's covering. Key is large powerful pump, even tubing lengths, and definitely go 3/4".
Although.. donuts.. just little loop rings are needed for your distribution lines.
Similar to what I'm doing here.. although these are 3/32" tees for blumats instead of 1/4" barbs. You try blumats yet? Some people struggle with them, they've worked great for me. Leaving my 4k Lemon tables for 10 days in a few days. I've done it in the past..hope it'll be another testimony to the reliability and ease of blumats. They are pretty damn set it and forget it with a elevated constant pressure rez setup.
Hope you don't mind the pics. If ya do just holler and I'll edit them out.
Get yourself a big mag pump, 3/4" tubing (instead of pvc), 1/4" barb connectors, and some 1/4" line and go to town. It's flexible and quick & easy to whip together in whatever configuration/layout you want. Can easily be altered to accommodate future changes.
I built some really nice square manifolds for a buddy using 1/4" barb connectors that thread into the PVC manifold, only to have some of the barbs snap off.. pain in the ass.. you've then got to drill them out, and then they are forever stuck in the manifold if you glued it all together like I did.
Don't see the benefit. Maybe I'm missing something. Better flow with PVC? If you were running against a wall or tables perhaps it would look nice and clean. Octo manifolds would eliminate the the fragile barbs that I'm referring to, but I just don't see it doing anything I can't do with a hole punch and some tubing in a quarter of the time.
Check out Smurf's Lemon thread. - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=298512
Like in this pic. He's said he's had some flow issues in far corners, but he's also got a pretty big garden he's covering. Key is large powerful pump, even tubing lengths, and definitely go 3/4".
Although.. donuts.. just little loop rings are needed for your distribution lines.
Similar to what I'm doing here.. although these are 3/32" tees for blumats instead of 1/4" barbs. You try blumats yet? Some people struggle with them, they've worked great for me. Leaving my 4k Lemon tables for 10 days in a few days. I've done it in the past..hope it'll be another testimony to the reliability and ease of blumats. They are pretty damn set it and forget it with a elevated constant pressure rez setup.
Hope you don't mind the pics. If ya do just holler and I'll edit them out.
SmokinErb22
Member
No particular reason for the PVC. I was going to build a set-up like MisterD did here-
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=6323290#post6323290
However, I don't really need to do anything like that anymore since I'm running single-level vertical. I'll probably end up doing something similar to what you just posted.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=6323290#post6323290
However, I don't really need to do anything like that anymore since I'm running single-level vertical. I'll probably end up doing something similar to what you just posted.
