What's new
  • Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
  • Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!

Respect?

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
Also the effect of capitalism and materialism. Parents work more and are home less in a relentless pursuit of income to satiate ones life through the collection of property as a means of prestige.



http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...s-narcissism-increasing-among-young-americans



Narcissism
is a serious social and psychological problem. The term refers to an inflated view of the self, coupled with relative indifference to others. People who are high in this trait fail to help others unless there is immediate gain or recognition to themselves for dong so; often think they are above the law and therefore violate it; and readily trample over others in their efforts to rise to the “top,” which is where they think they belong. A world full of narcissists would be a sad world indeed. We humans are, by nature, social animals; we absolutely depend upon one another’s good will and care. Narcissism is bad not just for society as a whole, but also for the individual narcissist. People high on this trait are often unhappy, angry at the world because of the world’s failure to recognize their superiority. They are generally incapable of forming the kinds of deep, meaningful, lasting relationships with others that we all need in order to live happy, emotionally secure lives.

The characteristic that perhaps most distinguishes non-narcissists from narcissists is empathy. Empathy refers to a capacity and tendency to experience life not just from one’s own point of view but also from that of others, to feel others’ joy and sorrow, and to care about others’ wellbeing. Specialists in moral development consider empathy to be the foundation for human compassion and morality.

For the past three decades or a little more, researchers have been assessing both narcissism and empathy using questionnaires developed in the late 1970s. The questionnaire designed to assess narcissism is the Narcissistic Personality Inventory (NPI). If you want to see what it’s like, and even test yourself on it, you can find it here (link is external). The questionnaire designed to assess empathy is the Interpersonal Reactivity Index, which you can find here (link is external). As you can see, if you do check these links, the questions are pretty transparent. If you wanted to, you could easily fake yourself as low in narcissism and high in empathy, or the reverse. However, most people (even those high in narcissism) apparently answer pretty honestly and accurately. Many research studies have shown that scores on these questionnaires correlate reliably with real-world behavior and with other people’s ratings of the individuals. For example, those who score high in narcissism have been found to overrate their own abilities, to lash out angrily in response to criticism, and to commit white-collar crimes at higher rates than the general population.[1] Those who score low in empathy are more likely than the average person to engage in bullying and less likely to volunteer to help people in need.[2.]

Over the years, these questionnaires have been administered to many samples of college students, and analyses that bring all of the data together reveal that the average narcissism score has been steadily increasing and the average empathy score has been steadily decreasing ever since the questionnaires were developed [3.] The changes are highly significant statistically and sufficiently large that approximately 70 percent of students today score higher on narcissism and lower on empathy than did the average student thirty years ago.

What accounts for this historical rise in narcissism and decline in empathy? There is no way to know for sure, based on the data, but there are lots of grounds for speculation. One possibility that comes easily to mind is that the changes simply have to do with the ways that people respond to questionnaire items. Maybe students are more honest now than they were thirty years ago in admitting selfish or uncaring tendencies. That’s perhaps the rosiest possible interpretation, because it suggests that the change is not one of increased narcissism but increased honesty. Most people who do this research, however, reject that explanation, because other evidence suggests that the tendency to try to look good on questionnaires (which are filled out anonymously in these studies) hasn’t changed over the years and because other means of assessment, which would be harder to fake, also tend to reveal an increase in narcissism and decline in empathy.[3] So, most of the speculation has to do with changes in the world in which young people are growing up.

Some of the speculation has centered on the misguided “self-esteem” movement that began to take shape in the 1980s.[4.] Parents, teachers, and others involved with children were advised to build up children’s self-esteem through frequent praise. Many parents, especially, began telling their children how beautiful, smart, and generally wonderful they are, or began bragging about their kids to others in front of them. Television programs for kids featured songs about being “special” and lessons to the effect that “you can be anything you want to be.” In competitions, everyone got some kind of trophy. Perhaps some of that actually got incorporated into the thinking of young people growing up in this era. They may to some degree have grown up believing what they were told. To the degree that they did, they would become narcissists, because the things they were told are exactly the kinds of things that narcissists believe about themselves.

Another possible culprit, which makes even more sense to me, is the increased pressure on children and adolescents to achieve, where achievement is defined as beating others in competitions.[5.] When achievement is defined as getting the best grades in school, getting into the best college, winning individual sporting competitions, and the like, then the focus of thought is on the self and others are seen as obstacles, or as people you must defeat, or as people you must manipulate to serve your ends.
If the purpose of a child’s life is to build a strong résumé, as many parents seem to believe, then, of course, the child is going to grow up “looking out for number one” and not have much time or concern for others. In these conditions young people might volunteer for causes that will look good on a résumé, but not take time to help others purely out of compassion, where it will not show up on a résumé.

Closely related to the increased pressure to achieve is the decline in play. Those of you who have been reading this blog regularly know that I have been much concerned by this decline. Over the past several decades, we have witnessed a continuous and, overall, dramatic decline in children’s freedom and opportunities to play with other children, undirected by adults.
In other essays I have linked this decline to the well-documented rise in depression and anxiety among children and adolescents (here) and to the recently documented decline in creativity (here). Free play is the primary means by which children learn to control their own lives, solve their own problems, and deal effectively with fear and anger—and thereby protect themselves from prolonged anxiety and depression. Free play is also the primary means by which children maintain and expand upon their creative potentials. Now, I suggest, free social play—that is, play with other kids, undirected by adults--is also the primary means by which children overcome narcissism and build up their capacity for empathy.

Play, by definition, is always voluntary, and that means that players are always free to quit. If you can’t quit, it’s not play. All normal children have a strong biological drive to play with other children. That’s part of human child nature—an extraordinarily important part of it. In such play, every child knows that the others can quit at any time and will quit if they are not happy. Therefore, to keep the fun going, each child is motivated to keep the other children happy. To do that, children must listen to one another, read into what they are saying, and, in general, get into one another’s mind so as to know what the other wants and doesn’t want. If a child fails at that and consistently bullies others or doesn’t take their views into account, the others will quit, leaving the offending child alone. This is powerful punishment that leads the offender to try harder next time to see from others’ points of view. Thus, in their social play, children continuously practice and build upon their abilities to empathize, negotiate, and cooperate.

Moreover, children, unlike adults, are rarely effusive in their praise of one another. They have little tolerance for anyone who thinks that he or she is “special,” or is in some way above the rules, or is a natural leader who should get his or her way all the time. Playmates are often highly skilled in deflating one another’s egos, through such means as humor and insults, or through outright rejection if those means fail.

Consistent with this view, correlational studies have revealed that children who engage in more social play with other children demonstrate more empathy, and more ability to understand the perspective of others, than do children who engage in less such play.[6] Moreover, several short-term experiments conducted in preschools have shown that when some children are provided with extra opportunities to engage in social play, those in the extra-play groups later exhibit higher performance on various measures of social perspective-taking and ability to get along with others than do those in the control groups.[7]

Children’s strong drives to play came about, through natural selection, to serve many purposes. As I have explained in previous essays, play is a means by which children practice creativity, practice taking charge of their own lives and solving their own problems, practice rule-following and impulse control, and practice the art of regulating their own emotions. And, as part of all this, play is also how children learn to live socially, on an equal footing with their fellow human beings. Nature’s way of insuring that we survive as social beings was to implant in us, as children, a powerful drive to play with other children. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, in recent decades we have been making it harder and harder for children to find opportunities to do that without adult interference. If we want to reverse the trend toward narcissism, we must find new ways to allow children, once again, to spend great amounts of time playing freely with one another
 

BlueBlazer

What were we talking about?
Veteran
When I was a teenager, I thought most "old" people were dumb. The older, the dumber.

As I got older, those folks seemed to get smarter. By the time I got "old" the "really old" folk I used to dismiss as rambling relics seemed to become very wise indeed.

My youngest son is 33 and he is always telling me that he remembered some shit I told him when he was a kid that he dismissed and realizes now that I was right.

I think there is a definite shift in our society away from thinking of others and concentrating on self. I notice this most often driving. Being polite to let folks out into traffic seems to be rarer and rarer. And when did it become the thing to react to a lane change signal by speeding up instead of slowing down? It's sad that when you do let folks in, they are hesitant because that's not normal behavior anymore.

Oh, and I yelled at some punk kids to get off my lawn today too. :biggrin:
 

stoned-trout

if it smells like fish
Veteran
no ...when I was a kid we were afraid of our parents if we got disrespectfull...yeehaw...I blame the parents of todays children and the breakdown of family values
 

WelderDan

Well-known member
Veteran
I was always respectful of my elders... Raised that way. When I was young (20's) I was more disrespectful to my peers. Now (my 50's) I give everyone, both younger and older respect, unless it isn't shown in return. Then I get on your ass. If you want it, you reciprocate. If you don't reciprocate, I got no time for your shit and will tell you so. Then you have to earn it back. Seems to work for me. I show the younger guys at work respect, and they respond to that, as do the older guys.

Respect is earned. You show it, you get it. You get it, you show it. There are the exceptions, but it works for me.
 
Bit of a 1 sided view imo, it's all cyclical as was said b4.
Same shit was said about every gen b4 by their parents, n all those problems "solved" by the last gen were also in place because of them and the previous, so how's that deserve more respect than what this gen is accomplishing.
Hippie kids protesting n dying didn't stop nam any more than this gen freed the weed in accordance to the fact that they were there when it strted in the 1st place n were as much in "power" n control as the claim of this gen not being in any.
All it is is a result of how hard it is to keep track of when ones perspective changes really.
The perspective's nothing new either just different from what it personally used to be, but same shit as the last gens.
Best off not caring a lick about generations, we're all crap.
lol Hell even "the greatest generation" as they so aptly named themselves lol stopped Hitler, but only after letting him go on until they HAD to for risk of their own.
Better off just waiting for the nxt gen so you can spoil the grand kids n turn them into the little shits your kids'll bitch n moan about. lol ;)

cheers,....................................gps
 

Runt

Member
You also get the respect you earn. Getting older doesn´t mean you know it all and if you look down on kids they´ll see you as a middle aged know it all and it will gain you no respect. Kids also hate grownups that act "cool" -at least we did. Disrespectful behaviour is often just a sign of insecurity. My kids friends say I´m cool but I disagree as I´m not -I just listen to their side of the story before giving mine.
 

t99

Well-known member
Veteran
You old farts are still complaining? Did you run out of prune juice or something? "Back in my day...." no one cares. Quit crying and go take a nap. And no, you should not be driving, you're going to kill someone!:moon:
 

BlueBlazer

What were we talking about?
Veteran
You old farts are still complaining? Did you run out of prune juice or something? "Back in my day...." no one cares. Quit crying and go take a nap. And no, you should not be driving, you're going to kill someone!:moon:



Go clean your room.
 

armedoldhippy

Well-known member
Veteran
You old farts are still complaining? Did you run out of prune juice or something? "Back in my day...." no one cares. Quit crying and go take a nap. And no, you should not be driving, you're going to kill someone!:moon:

get a haircut and a job! plus, hand over your weed, you smoke too damn much. oh yeah, could you loan me a few bucks? your mother and i are going to a movie & need cab fare...:biggrin:
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
It is hard to have a view of generational cycles when you are young, as you either are exposed to generations of people or you survive generations of people or a combination thereof.

Understand humanity doesn't cycle like laundry in a washing machine, because humanity changes based on environment and populations, so the cycles gain momentum in directions.

If you knew the WWII generation for example, there was a deep honor for democratic patriotism. As generations continue mores and values, change, but not necessarily evolving.

Let your plants grow too big for their pots they decline because the environment (the container and soil) also dictates the success of the plant.

In terms of society, society shapes the container for humanity to either thrive or collapse within, and since we are self aware and communicating its on us to keep the container relative to the plant, or in other words our societal mores and values will either lead to our survival or collapse.

These days American materialism has created a spirit of narcissism that is a serious cancer among our society.

I am not saying the old guard has it right, society is a co creation of young and old and all those in between and the direction we shape it in, most definitely matters.

Hard to see stuff like this if you worship at the alter of self, aka materialism

It is an empty foundation that leaves many people empty at the end of their days, something that has been written about long ago by sages and wise men.
 

blastfrompast

Active member
Veteran
Honestly it is parents today.

I have a 6yr old son, he has been raised from day 1 that manners and respect are not outdated concepts. Work isn't a 4 letter word either around my homestead.

Now compare that to some of his friends I have met....and once I meet the parents I UNDERSTAND EXACTLY why they act like they do...NO structure...no telling the "NO"..and nothing but freebies..

My son gets an allowance, he has had chores to earn this allowance starting at 4.5yrs old... Garbage, feeds the dogs, etc. In return he has a wallet with cash in it that he knows he can use to buy anything from a new toy to LUNCH for his MOM (this impressed me)...

He picks rocks out of our gardens in the spring before planting (roto-tilling new beds always knocks a few up...and helps with planting....

Next spring he is going to be a "partner" in a market garden biz with me and his grandpa.... He knows work = GOOD things.....

Is he spoiled...I'd say so.....but it is rightfully earned.

And tho we will cut him some slack with certain things, if he should disrespect his mom....he KNOWS there will be repercussions whether it is the loss of his Toys for a few days, or other privileges.

Cause and Effect is a great motivator.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
I raised my kids the same, wait til mainstream integration, then the challenge is dealing with a world that lowers teh bar for self satisfaction and interest.
 

Croissant

Member
Basically there was a societal shift in identity that was manufactured through public relations and marketing. Where once our narcissism was aimed at collective identities like the nation or ethnicity it shifted to the individual realizing ones "trueself" through consumerism.

So where once it was common place to think the nation had a duty to the people and thus people had a duty to the nation, which could easily mobilize a populace to war. Then with the baby boomer generation it became common place to think individuals have a duty to "realized their potential," and if they fail it is the fault of the individual.

Now on some level gen y and the millenials realize its total bullshit and that's why everything has become so ironic because irony provides the proper distance that we can mindlessly consume but we don't have the opporutunities of the boomers so we realize that potential through social media images. Then we consume ourselves trying to live up to those images trying to realize someone elses potential that is suppoced to be our own. This causes us a deep sense of guilt so we focus on "wellbeing" and "living mindfully" to create an image to identify with of us realizing our potential by creating distance from this guilt of just being a mindless consumer and to convince ourselves that we are acutally doing something.
 
Last edited:

barnyard

Member
C'est bon Croissnat.

Marcuse observes of industrial society, as did Marx of industrial capitalism, the progressive development of commodity fetishism. "The people recognize themselves in their commodities; they " (p. 11)find their soul in their automobile, hi-fi set, split-level home (and)kitchen equipment" (p. 9). "If individuals find themselves in the things which shape their life, they do so not by giving, but by accepting the law of things-not the law of physics, but the law of their society"
 

Croissant

Member
exactly barnyard.

the youth know its bullshit but we convince ourselves we are realizing our "true self" by attempting to "stay positive" while still acting on behalf of realizing the power relations that exists between the commodities themselves. We get upset with ourselves and other because we don't feel we are living up to the potential enjoyment the commodities demonstrate in the images that inform us of their power relations. The old identify with an image from a certain time that has passed and the young are just desperately trying to keep up with the current "cool" or "successful" image as it passes us up and the young simply don't have the opportunities the boomers did to realize the image of enjoyment and success.

So, in the age where it is the individuals responsibility to realize the image of success and with less access to the old signifiers of success the signifiers will become more and more superficial, such as body image modification, and fleeting such as the feeling you get from watching cute kitty videos, and less tethered to the material such as fetishized states of being like the "mindfulness" and "positivity" self policing nonsense.

The youth are trapped in the narcissistic ideals of the boomer generation without the same opportunities to realize those ideals and even when they do they can only do so ironically or in the name of some exoticized culture as all authenticity has been drained of those ideals that still continue to function. Also new signifiers of success, like a cool tattoo, are still defined by the boomers ideals but disregarded as frivolous by the older generations which is a major source of resentment. So the youth want the authenticity of the past yet we know it has led us to the brink of envorinmental catastrophe and we feel ineffective to create the changes necessary to enjoy the quality of life of past generations so naturally the youth are upset at past generations about it.


The main mistake I see people make is mistaking issues that have to do with commodity fetishism with individual responsibility. The physical object once produced becomes a commodity which is an imagined virtual object imbued with our conciousness and we relate to the physical object through the virtual and the virtual objects or commodities relate to each other on a level we are not fully conscious of, but informs us of who we are, who others are and how to relate to physical reality.

they-live-we-sleep.jpg
 
Last edited:

CoCoSativas

Active member
Was I, were we, really as disrespectful to people when we were young as the newer generations are?

I even married an Asian partly because I liked how the Asian people respected the wisdom and experience of their elderly, so treated them thusly.

But young people these days seem to look at older people with disrespect and blame. Especially the millennials. I never have liked using labels like that to describe anything, but that one kinda describes it and conveys my meaning anyway.

But it's not just the millenials that are doing that, that apparent disrespect seems to span all the of the newer "generations" too.

It's like they think they are the reason for this newer acceptance of cannabis. That's just not true. Sanjay Gupta is not a millennial. Obama's not a millennial. Hardly anyone in a power position is a millennial.

My God, the older generation stopped an immoral war (Vietnam) through protesters dieing and continual picketing , etc. My generation were instrumental in getting a President who thought he was above the law removed (Nixon). This stuff happening now isn't at all because of the young, although their voices are heard, they are not the ones making the changes.

I get that young people are like that. I was one. I just don't think we were that disrespectful.

Not everyone is like that. I'm 25 and while I'm a jerkoff sometimes everyone is. It's not a new thing. Sure lots of kids are dicks these days but if your post is about respect it's a 2 way street.

I go out of my way to treat my elders with respect. Lots of cool old stories old timers share plus we are all human we are all young then get old so I understand everyone deserves respect.

Except pricks who needs em? Trash em all you want young or old...

Don't you think it's disrespect to lump a whole age group together and sit there droning on about what you did. Guess what I build shit for a living. Maybe not as glorious to you as chanting stop the war but we have our own accomplishments, you might not see it buy young people my age (25+) are the new faces in buisness, sports art and music. We are doing shit I'm sorry it's not enough for you...

I'm confused how marrying a Asian factors into this... I mean I get the respect thing but no part of it was the fact they are very subservient in relationships?

The original post makes me feel weird... Idk if it's real or just some pot stirring

Lol edit this is in the old timers zone I just saw it in new posts... I'll just leave you guys too it... sorry
 

waveguide

Active member
Veteran
croissant - i use the terms "referential" and "areferential" to describe authority/authorisation of memetics..

..don't resent the older generations, how much "choice" they had or have isn't apparent or pertinent to your experience..

..i regret not noting a chinese hermetics text, which described the lethality of "all" or at least, any incidental thing... how a single word can kill you.. a single anything.. so many things the mind catches and hangs on to (by habit?) where it should flow on. spend all day thinking about some dumb bullshit if you're not careful kinda thing.

in a way, the modern generations have an advantage in that this trap bullshit is so apparent.. (if only it wasn't the foundation of like everything in the entire world already..)
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
Words only have as much power as you are willing to give them, the human virus of pass the buck starts and stops with me and you.

Disrespect is not a solution it is a sign of possessing the same apathy for fellow humanity that they accuse the generation before them of.

When people evolve past the absolute idiocy of think blame is a solving problem tool we can get past marginalization of humanity by humanity.

If it is a real problem then there is a real solution, cause and effect is what needs to be observed, and to that a pragmatic and fair solution, the actualized as synergy, which drives society to more of the same, as blaming just drives people further away from it.
 
Top