Raising Ebb & Gro buckets to increase root space

[UrbanAero]

I think you would get more budds because more root=more budds. I am planning a UC system like heaths but I found these square buckets online and all sizes from 2 gallon-5 gallon stack inside each other. I ordered the 2 gallons to sit inside the 4.25 gallon buckets, I couldnt find buckets anywhere that would work so well. check out these. I think this will be cheaper than buying a waterfarm and modifying it. also I think these buckets would benefit ebb & gro systems for people who like to D.I.Y http://www.thecarycompany.com/containers/squarepails.html

 

[brightskies]

i am sorry and i dont know if you guys have spoken about this, but raising the inner pot more than ONE inch will cause your roots to grow into the feed line, jamming up a whiole row of plants, trust me on this i been running this system for 2 yrs now and only one failure is when i raised buckets 1.75inches higher than the controller bucket, i raise the whole plant site not just the inner buckets, the issues is if the roots sit in that space of water as per instructions, they will not grow as fast, if you allow less water and more root space the roots always go out in search of more water, the roots sitting in the pool of water will not be encouraged and have no need to keep going. people's main worry is they believe this pool of water in the bottom bucket becomes stagnant, this is not true. IMHO if your going to fiddle around with raising anything, you can raise the whole outer/iner bucket plant site one inch higher than controller. i lost 6 beautiful plants because they all had roost clog up the line

Thank you for responding morris, I really value your opinion.

I'm glad you brought it up, because I was concerned about clogging on my last grow shown above. But, it didn't happen. Probably because I raised them only ONE INCH, like you said.

There was even a concave relief area around the flood hole, as though the floods kept pushing the root mass back, away from the hole. They spent their last 9 weeks with each bucket set raised ONE INCH. And still no root seeking at the end.

I might try to raise just the INNER bucket about 2" on a few of them that I have duplicates of. Maybe do it in increments over a few days. I can't see doing this as making any difference in regards to roots going up the line seeking water.

 

[brightskies]

Those pics of Heathie`s are "aquafarms" BS , and a fair size bigger than waterfarm units..........Plus , his setup`s high flow recirculating DWC , not ebb and flow buckets.......apples and oranges...

Back in my ol krusty bucket days , the standard operating procedure was a 6" netpot turned upside down for the upper 5 gal bucket ta sit on like a spacer and thought to raise it for more rootzone , but it was actually to weave soakerhose in and out of for the "air to roots" froth and spraying of the roots hangin down.........

What yas did with the split hose to tighten up and suspend the top container looks good , and every bit of rootmass yas can build till stretch is over means more upper foliage and budsites IME.......I didn`t know your first pic was right as they were flipped.......

Strain dependent , they`ll stretch 3-4 more weeks , or more indica dominant species/varietie`s slim ta none..........Gotta know your strain ta know how much rootmass yas can build till stretch is over and budset/swellage begins............

THAT determines what size container yas need once you figure out how much of a rootmass yas can grow with said strain for optimal yields..........Always filled my 5 gal buckets with roots........Roots make shoots.....period.........

You WILL needta raise the controller cuz ain`t no such thing as "air roots" unless they`re in media of some sort in the upper containers.......Look at those same pics of Heathie`s you posted and observe the original poster`s question that I answered for him on "cord roots"........

That`s what`ll happen to yours if they`re left to dry out completely above the feed level and never get juice again........

They`ll twist into cords to be ableta suck as much juice as they can for the plants needs above , and they`ll choke out the feed process guaranteed directly affecting bottom line yields........seen it many times with DWC newbies.......same thing goes for any roots hangin without bein regularly juiced in any fast hydro setup......

Just tryinta help from all them yrs of doin this Bro........Not tryin ta tell yas what ta do........

Peace.........DHF..............

Hey Man- you're the best DHF.

I corrected the Aqua Farm reference. Thank you. I was so excited I got a little sloppy. Yeah... I know that system is much different. I was just wishing.

Great advice on dialing-in the size of the root mass. I had never considered that aspect before. Last time, my first time, I just vegged them as much as I thought I could and hung on for the ride. I just wanted to grow them BIG. LOL! Must be beginner's luck.

When I spoke about air roots, I was referring to the roots inside the hydroton of the upper pot, right at the current flood line.

When you raise the buckets 1", the flood line drops 1", and those roots at the previous flood line are now dry. I think I read somewhere that they will turn into "air roots" and still serve some function. Just trying to clarify myself DHF. Not telling you.

 

[brightskies]

do you think plant do better when you go to 4" rockwool rather than straight into the hydroton?

Probably not asking me, but I clone in rockwool and then put the blocks into the ebb & gro.

I would think that skipping the rockwool would be better if you can, all other things being equal. Not to mention you gain a couple of inches of height by skipping the block- if that matters.

Just be careful and keep any rockwool above the flood line so it doesn't get wet.

 

[brightskies]

I think you would get more budds because more root=more budds. I am planning a UC system like heaths but I found these square buckets online and all sizes from 2 gallon-5 gallon stack inside each other. I ordered the 2 gallons to sit inside the 4.25 gallon buckets, I couldnt find buckets anywhere that would work so well. check out these. I think this will be cheaper than buying a waterfarm and modifying it. also I think these buckets would benefit ebb & gro systems for people who like to D.I.Y http://www.thecarycompany.com/containers/squarepails.html

Very interesting. I checked those out. I just saw a "new" (to me) bucket at the hydro shop today. It's light blue in color, square and kinda tall, and about the same size as that 4 1/2 gal. It's drilled for a 3/4 fitting at the bottom/side and comes with some kind of net pot and a spacer to keep the net pot off the bottom of the bucket. Under $10. It was odd too because it has an optional vented propagation dome top for that big bucket. Maybe for orchid growers.

I'm only going to be flowering 7-10 plants at a time under two 1K HPS, so I might try those bigger buckets on the next run.

 

[brightskies]

also, growning in 5x5 square pots with hydroton, would it beneficial to put one of the 1/2" coc mats in the tray first?

Hey Dusto- Is your objective to put the coco mat in the bottom of the outer bucket to prevent roots from seeking the drain? Or am I reading it wrong?

 

[dusto2k3]

two parts, i want the mat in the tray to keep the roots coming out of the pot to be able to stay moist. Also, I think they do better if thay have something to hold on to. Am I wrong. if so slap me and call me stupid..LOL

 

[DHF]

OK.......thought you were tryin ta raise the upper containers for more rootmass in the bottom containers but not raise feed level .........so....... if raised higher than where the fill line is on the controller , then there`d be an "air gap" between feed level and bottom of upper containers thus causing/forming "cord roots"..........

As long as feed goes up into the original intended flood level within tolerances inside the containers holding the medium , it`s all good.......

And yeah , everything above the feed level will have no choice but to become "air roots" and it tends to be a good thingy in coco setups , and not so good in e&f setups if too far between feeds......especially in mid-late flower when they drink so much......

We`ll getchas figgered out , just keep hoonin.........you doin aight.......

Peace.....DHF................

 

[brightskies]

two parts, i want the mat in the tray to keep the roots coming out of the pot to be able to stay moist. Also, I think they do better if thay have something to hold on to. Am I wrong. if so slap me and call me stupid..LOL

Yeah dusto, I had thought of that same thing before I started my system.

Even on 1" blocks, the bottom buckets still had a little water in them between feeds.

Last time, I tossed some big males that were 26" and bushy. I disconnected them from the system and drained them. They sat there for about 24 hours before they showed any droopiness at all. And still looked "OK" 30 hours later when I tossed them. They had similar roots as the pic above, with the lower pot jammed full. They lasted a lot longer than I thought they would. Just my one time experience.

I didn't have any problems with roots seeking the line. It's easier to keep an eye on only 7 plants though, so the coco mat might be good peace of mind for you, depending on your situation. That's assuming that the coco mat is indeed a "root barrier". But here we are again, that mat is going to take up precious real estate that could be filled with roots.

It depends on how big you grow your plants. I must be in the minority, so most of you guys are keeping them smaller and don't need all of that root space in the bottom of the pot anyway.

I have a 15 plant legal limit. And even then, flowering only 7 plants last time was kind of an accident because I had a lot of males. It turned out better than I thought and I'm doing 7 on purpose this time.

I don't know exactly how efficient it is growing these larger plants, or if it is at all. It sure is fun though!

The only time (twice) I've had problems with anchoring is during the transition when I put the RW blocks into the ebb & gro. Some blocks would shift around quite a bit, enough to get less water. Now, I run a wire across the tops of the blocks, anchored on each side at small holes I drilled in the top edge of the pot. This pins down the blocks and they DON'T MOVE. I never had any other problems with anchoring.

 

[brightskies]

OK.......thought you were tryin ta raise the upper containers for more rootmass in the bottom containers but not raise feed level .........clip...

Well, that IS what I want to do. LOL! I'm a little slow sometimes.

So, what you're saying is that it's BAD to have roots hanging in the lower bucket area that aren't staying wet between floods?

I'll have to go re-read the cord roots post once the hash wears off.

 

[DHF]

The new and improved version ebb and grow units drain out the bottoms and haveta be positioned just so per controller bucket level for no residual juice left in the buckets after every feed cycle......

I always used the bottom inch or so left in the bottom containers of my ebb and flow bucket setups after every feed for "safety valve" insurance against power outages to allow roots to have residual feed even if the pumps weren`t runnin in an emergency sitution.....

All roots in bottom containers needta be flooded......period........no air gaps.........

Good luck......DHF..............

 

[brightskies]

Got it. Thanks DHF for taking the time to pound it in.

I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board then and make a plan for the next grow. Maybe I can still raise the inner bucket if I raise the controller bucket too. But, that's a lot of roots that will always be soaking in water. I've got a chiller going so that would help. I'll make sure I'm not low on weed when I try it.

 

[DHF]

Bro........just lemme know your weaknesses and we`ll strengthen em....

Ebb and flow buckets are the most maintenance free systems there are , but.........they take dialage........
You`ll get there.........just holler.......

DHF...................

 

[brightskies]

Will do! You already advanced me two grades. Thank you.

 

[*mistress*]

buckets. flow

buckets. flow

1) use 4 gallon square buckets, for top buckets. the lip of the 4 gallon rest on top of 5 gallon round buckets. they fit tight, but still able to lift out 4 gallon. 4gal leaves ~2-3in below bottom of 4 gal, to inside-bottom of 5 gal...

for more than 2-3in...

2. measure desired level from the bottom of the 4 gallon bucket to the inside-bottom of the 5 gallon bucket.

3. cut piece of 2x2 (wood) to length, of desired elevation of 4gal (or any inner bucket). 4 pieces total.
attach those to the 4 sydes of the 4gal bucket, under-neath the outer lip of the 4gal.
the ends of the pieces of wood rest on the top edge of the 5gal, raised to desired highth.

the upper support is the outer lip of the 4gal, where the handles attach to, all around...

The answer to more rootmass is use bigger containers.........

...

Strain dependent, ..........Gotta know your strain ta know how much rootmass yas can build till stretch is over and budset/swellage begins............

THAT determines what size container yas need once you figure out how much of a rootmass yas can grow with said strain for optimal yields..........Always filled my 5 gal buckets with roots........Roots make shoots.....period.........

other opshuns:
Super simple ebb & flow buckets @ #91

Super Simple Sbb and Flow hydroponic setup- DIY tutorial *lots o pics* @ 1. see over-flow illustration...

adjusting the over-flow pipe adjusts the height of flow (nutrient)...

maybe 1, 2, 3 different syze over-flow pipes... attach - detach to/from pump. for different stages of groeth, or for desired heigth(s), tests, etc...

 

[brightskies]

Thanks *mistress*, I hadn't seen those links. I'll study that info. The flood height adjustment possibility sounds very interesting. Good stuff.

After having built my own controller bucket, it would be fairly easy to add a second set of float switches and have more options that way too.

 

[Eschertias]

Well, I had a crop that looked just like that, only once the roots managed to completely fill the bottom part of the pot, and work their way into the hoses, we ended up with a case of root rot so bad we nearly puked when we lifted the pots.

A combination of roots that are able to hold a large quantity of water, plus the fact that the root wad made it extremely difficult for the water to even get the hydroton wet left us with the most disgutsting case of root rot ever. This was despite the fact that we bleach the water, aerate the hell out of it with a 15 L/minute stone, and keep it a a cozy 68 degrees.

Today we moved some from veg to flower, and we used a pair of sterile scissors to cut away the entire mass sticking below the pot. I figure there is plently enough root mass in the hydroton to keep it hydrated, and if not, then we have learned that my way doesn't work.

 

[brightskies]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. I was afraid of the same thing happening, but never saw any root rot. Even though the roots were jammed in the bottom bucket, they had no desire to enter the flood/drain line.

Had you modified your buckets in anyway? Did you raise them 1" or anything like that?

Just trying to prevent the same thing from
happening to me.

 

[DHF]

You know......I`ve only heard of root rot twice in 15 yrs of indoor growing with ebb and flow buckets and both were IMO vegged too long for the size containers "causing" way too much of a rootmass in the first place........

Not sure if most folks know this , but once stretch is over the plants don`t make roots anymore , but during the stretch they build almost as much rootmass as they had before the flip......

2 1/2 gal containers will only hold so many roots , and then it`s clogging feedlines and choking down the feed that will most definately cause problems if not dealt with as said above......

Eschertias.....yours is only the second time I`ve heard of rootrot in ebb and flow buckets , and hasta be from over-vegging too small of a container IME......

My `ol bro Heathie Robinson usedta run those lil buckets in a "euro" style multi-flow setup , and when the roots hit the bottom containers he flipped to 12/12 to prevent roots from choking out the feed and runnin down the tubing and stopping flow altogether.........

Strain dependent as to how long to veg before roots grow down into the bottom containers , but it`s part of the knowledge needed to dial said setup and takes runs under your belt ta figure that out.......

Take care and good luck.....DHF............

 

[brightskies]

Good stuff DHF, thanks!