Protekt cloudy?

[EclipseFour20]

What is your definition for "siliconized"?

Let's start with this definition: The process which amorphous and silicic acid found in the soil are converted to "soluble silica"...and ultimately converted to "Plant Available Silica".

Of course all Si components are not equal, rice hull ash, diatomaceous earth, Wollastonite, and various chemical/synthetic silicates (calcium silicate, potassium silicate, etc), each have different paths/processes to become "soluble Si"--before the Si becomes "PAS".

And then we have the $/lb analysis. Why pay $6/lb for a chemical/synthetic SiO2...when $0.60/lb OMRI/Organic/natural product delivers more? You know, the old fashion "cost benefit analysis"...but now we are in the weeds and beyond the scope of this particular thread.

 

[Kygiacomo!!!]

Let's start with this definition: The process which amorphous and silicic acid found in the soil are converted to "soluble silica"...and ultimately converted to "Plant Available Silica".

Of course all Si components are not equal, rice hull ash, diatomaceous earth, Wollastonite, and various chemical/synthetic silicates (calcium silicate, potassium silicate, etc), each have different paths/processes to become "soluble Si"--before the Si becomes "PAS".

And then we have the $/lb analysis. Why pay $6/lb for a chemical/synthetic SiO2...when $0.60/lb OMRI/Organic/natural product delivers more? You know, the old fashion "cost benefit analysis"...but now we are in the weeds and beyond the scope of this particular thread.

great posts E420 even though u are beyond the scope as u say im still learning something new to help in my future decisons on what Si source i will be using. thanks for ur all ur guys posts its been super helpful

 

[mojave green]

Yah, good info. Thanks.

 

[Avenger]

Let's start with this definition: The process which amorphous and silicic acid found in the soil are converted to "soluble silica"...and ultimately converted to "Plant Available Silica".

Of course all Si components are not equal, rice hull ash, diatomaceous earth, Wollastonite, and various chemical/synthetic silicates (calcium silicate, potassium silicate, etc), each have different paths/processes to become "soluble Si"--before the Si becomes "PAS".

And then we have the $/lb analysis. Why pay $6/lb for a chemical/synthetic SiO2...when $0.60/lb OMRI/Organic/natural product delivers more? You know, the old fashion "cost benefit analysis"...but now we are in the weeds and beyond the scope of this particular thread.

So you made it up, is that why you put it in quotes? Do you own a dictionary?

I wish you would recommend amorphous DE as a great slow release source of PAS, but leave out all the made up mumbo-jumbo.

Take care, I've better things to do than this...

 

[EclipseFour20]

So you made it up, is that why you put it in quotes? Do you own a dictionary?

I wish you would recommend amorphous DE as a great slow release source of PAS, but leave out all the made up mumbo-jumbo.

Take care, I've better things to do than this...

LOL...methinks someone should grow thicker skin if he wants to play with the big boys. The more you try to look smart, the dumber you appear--

First regarding the word "siliconized", here are some definitions of the word you suggested that I made up (lol):

-treated or coated with a silicone http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/siliconized
-coated, treated, or combined with silicon http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/siliconized
-coat or otherwise treat (something) with silicone http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/siliconize
-(of a material) having silicone added. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/siliconized

Yes, I used that word "loosely" hence it was in quotes--but you get the idea. BTW, if you are aware of a more appropriate word describing that describes this process, please share it!

The process is...to convert amorphous silica (SiO2)

and/or potassium silicate (K2O3Si)

to monosilicic acid (H4O4Si)

Secondly, DE is NOT slow release form of PAS--where did you get that idea? Certainly not from me. Yeah, maybe you might not want to play with the big boys--at least until you know what you are talking about and/or grow thicker skin.

BTW...if anyone thinks I am too hard on Avenger--please remember his first post in this thread was to suggest my comments were "dumbass" and IMHO, has offered zero value to this thread. Can anyone spell "troll"?

 

[Only Ornamental]

I just overflew most posts, sorry if this is going to be a repetition.
The reason for cloudiness of potassium silicate solutions is most likely due to high mineral content in the water you use; river water is likely to be rich in lime. Silicate salts are for example incompatible with calcium and magnesium and form insoluble deposits.
You could use an ion exchange cartridge to 'clean' the river water before mixing with protekt or take some pure water with you to prepare a pre-dilution prior to adding river water or apply that concentrate directly before you water... The calcium silicate 'clouds' will still be active but need a lot more time to be taken up by the plants. Another alternative would be to fertilise directly with solid calcium silicate before you plant or switch the product. For outdoor growing, I would as well go with DE. Besides, are you sure you even need silica? Well, with the hard water you might be in a sediment or lime stone region. But if you have for example granite, mica, or clay rich soil, adding silica is like powering table salt spoon-wise into the ocean .

 

[Dkgrower]

Hey guys, dont start a pissing contest on a topic that is still not fully understood even by experts, we are to cool to do that =)

As only ornamental points out, Diatomic is not the best option since pure silica is more difficult to dissolve in the soil enviroment.

Feldspars the most commen mineral on earth and found in allmost all soils are unstabel and decompose to kaolin.

In that process mono silica acids are relased and used by plants, most of the silica found in plants come from this natural system of breaking down silica rich minerals to clay minerals.

In the studies such as those Avenger linked to, they reff a fact that is often found in plants and that is they contain more silica than would be derived from the natural decomposition of feldspars, hence plants accelerate the decomposition of feldspars n such to increase the amount of mono silica acid found in the rhizospher of certain plants, rice is the most cited exambel.


Here is a moring wake n bake thought, tropical plants since they have evolved in a more humid and warmer climate where soils contain more plant avialiabel silica "PAS", used this to focus less on fiber production.. rember that plants use silica to make small crystals inside dead cells to keep them hard, maby since cannabis comes from colder and less humid conditions have focused more on fiber to keep the plants standing..

And again i would love to raise the question if we really want to have extra silica crystals in your bud, that will stay solid and be transported to oure lungs

 

[EclipseFour20]

In the mineral/chemistry world, "amorphous means": having no real or apparent crystalline form. Here is a pic of Fossil Shell Flour magnified 7000 times--

No crystal form here. Like I said earlier, not all forms of Si are equal, some take time to dissolve (days, months, years), some never dissolve--hence having Si in the soil does not equate to having PAS. Sand (source of Si) provides zero PAS.

People smarter than "all of us" have concluded "amorphous Si" is extremely soluble in soil...from the Savant paper--(pdf page 9). For you doubters, I draw your attention to the sentence, "Thermodynamically, the solubility of silicate minerals in terms...."

On one end of the spectrum of "soluble Si" we have "amorphous Si" as the best and at the other end we have "crystalline" Si (quartz) as the least soluble. Hmmm.

Sorry, no pissing contest, but if someone with less knowledge than me....calls me a "dumbass", I will respond "in kind"--especially if it is that person's FIRST post in a thread. It ain't nice to call people names, especially without provocation (period).

 

[Avenger]

Yes, I used that word "loosely" hence it was in quotes--but you get the idea. BTW, if you are aware of a more appropriate word describing that describes this process, please share it!

Loosely, more like incorrectly. which was dumb.

the term for the process is hydrolysis.

 

[CoCoSativas]

This thread is pretty intense and now veering in a interesting direction.

Op, get a combo meter. Thats your issue man... If you are pouring in protekt into water you dont know the ph thats a issue. Its a waste of product and could be very counter productive. Protekt is like ph 12 out of the bottle. Say your water sourse has a ph of 8.5 and you arent lowering your ph before watering you are putting water in at wayyyy to high a ph.

If you are to cheap to buy a 150 dollar meter (which anyone using bottles instead of organic needs to have) general hydroponics sells a 5 dollar ph test kit. All this stuff is available online. I use a hanna combo meter, its a little black pen. I love it its quite accurate nd needed calibration one in 6 months of owning it. If you use bottles you need a meter. They are easy to use, tells you ppm, ec, water temp and ph. I preffer ec to ppm, but its a preference thing, most here in north America use ppm. I use both but preffer ec, dosent katter really ppm is a scale of ec measurment so whatever...

Dosent matter what silica you use you need to ph... Its a waste of the stuff pouring it in, its not like mixing pop syrup... If you dont want to learn the 3 button combo meter stick to organics. I used to do organic dirt. Worked great, and i never owned a meter. It was very easy, just water and cut the things down. Tasted great but i knew i could get a better yield in hydro, its a myth organic tastes better, they are both tasty if done right... Organic burns cleaner and faster.... But sativas do better in hydro so thats what i do.

Wanted to mention, badass silica showdown guys. Lots of interesting information flying around. I did alot of reaserch on hydro food before i got into it and silica was the one addative i found that made sense to use for sure. I only needed to tie one plant up this grow the rest stood, and they survived a temp spike to 105f one night without any sign it happened. Most of the grow was like 92-95 all the time, i lucked out i didnt have any heat stress issues. I like to think the silica lives up to the claims. It helps i grow sativas too, as they are quite heat resistant in the first place.

Nyway carry on fellas, but i hope everyone keeps the uyou are dumb, no your're dumb to themselves tho. You guys are passing tons of good info and it would be a shame to see the thread deleted...

 

[EclipseFour20]

Loosely, more like incorrectly. which was dumb.

the term for the process is hydrolysis.

Now we have the mystery resolved...

Hydrolysis (the chemical breakdown of a compound due to reaction with water)...hmmm, don't think so. There are two important processes that must occur--first the Si source becomes "soluble" in the soil--and secondly, the "soluble Si" is then converted to both poly and mono silicic acid (PAS).

IMHO, the word "hydrolysis" fails to explain theses processes (Si converted to PAS) any better than the word "siliconized".

Nice try Avenge...but, IMHO that word would have to be used in "quotes" as well; substitute "hydrolysis" for "siliconized" in my original sentence and the usage would not be true to it's strict definition (loosely used). As you know, there are other things going on that causes the Si to breakdown--not just a simple chemical breakdown caused by water--or maybe you don't.

Coco--I think you might read some of the Si literature I linked to in this thread, you have much to learn about PAS.

 

[Only Ornamental]

*Urgs*
pH is not the issue: Anything below 10 will result in precipitation of silica if you are above 100 ppm (~120 ppm orthosilicic acid at ambient temperature, to be precisely). Plants don't need that much. Precipitations due to pH are reversible (at least at first and will take more and more time the older they are) and will not be a real drawback.
Ask at the community for water quality, they might know, or get a quick test at an aquarium shop for water hardness, not pH!!
EDIT: Forgot to mention, DE does not affect pH.

@EclipseFour20: There are several forms of 'amorphous' silica and not all are equally well soluble. For reasons yet unknown, A) plants always 'produce' amorphous silica and B) silica from grass/monocots (for example rice bran or turf) is less bioavailable than from horsetail and dicots.

 

[Only Ornamental]

...
IMHO, the word "hydrolysis" fails to explain theses processes (Si converted to PAS) any better than the word "siliconized".

Nice try Avenge...but, IMHO that word would have to be used in "quotes" as well; substitute "hydrolysis" for "siliconized" in my original sentence and the usage would not be true to it's strict definition (loosely used)...

It's really just hydrolysis, nothing more, nothing less .
Siliconized is a pseudo-word describing organosilicic compounds and more precisely the covalent modification of a surface with silicone, organosilicates, or siloxanes. See for example HERE if you want to buy something to siliconize your mirrors so they won't get cloudy with condensation when you take a shower.

Amorphous silica is a term describing all sorts of non-crystalline silica particles, a complex mix of differently organised layers of linear, branched, and/or cyclic oligo- and polysilicate chains. These slowly hydrolyse on the surface, with highly porous material also deeper within the particles, until they reach a certain size of less than a few nm. Those form a seemingly clear 'solution' and will be hydrolysed ever faster, the smaller they get (see also Ostwald ripening) until only mono- and small oligomers remain. Of these, only orthosilicic acid is really well bioavailable. The other form of monosilicic acid, metasilicate, is usually not present at physiologic pH whereas the dimer may be resorbed but by far not as well. What happens within the plant is still a mystery.
For more insights, I have put two lengthy posts about this on the logical gardener. They still need some redaction but the general stuff, like chemistry and all, should be correct enough . Too lazy to copy-paste it in here, sorry guys 'n girls.

PS I know, no pissing contest...

 

[CoCoSativas]

Now we have the mystery resolved...

Hydrolysis (the chemical breakdown of a compound due to reaction with water)...hmmm, don't think so. There are two important processes that must occur--first the Si source becomes "soluble" in the soil--and secondly, the "soluble Si" is then converted to both poly and mono silicic acid (PAS).

IMHO, the word "hydrolysis" fails to explain theses processes (Si converted to PAS) any better than the word "siliconized".

Nice try Avenge...but, IMHO that word would have to be used in "quotes" as well; substitute "hydrolysis" for "siliconized" in my original sentence and the usage would not be true to it's strict definition (loosely used). As you know, there are other things going on that causes the Si to breakdown--not just a simple chemical breakdown caused by water--or maybe you don't.

Coco--I think you might read some of the Si literature I linked to in this thread, you have much to learn about PAS.

Oh i know im no expert on silica, at all. Maybe ive been led to believe bad information, whatever. Im not down for the showdown. Im here to watch this.

All im saying is if his ph is way outta wack its not good and probably needs to rectify that. Regardless of what the cloudyness problem is (because thats out of my area of knowledge), hes got a problem that hes not doing ph properly... Thats kinda important and id be more concerned about that myself than the cloudyness from the protekt...

My humble opinion, im still fairly new to hydro and only really go on what ive read and learned so far. Again im not here to really get involved in the scenario going down on this thread, im just pointing out an observation... Sorry to inturupt...

 

[Only Ornamental]

@CoCoSativas
You sure he's growing in hydro? Thought he's talking OD as he's taking river water somewhere upstream... And OD plus river water usually doesn't need pH adjustment (maybe soil amendment, best prior to planting).
Possible I missed something but his main concern (at least his first one mentioned) is the protekt going cloudy and not some sick plants.

 

[Dkgrower]

As you know, there are other things going on that causes the Si to breakdown--not just a simple chemical breakdown caused by water--or maybe you don't.

Hydrolysis is the chemical process that leads to silica acid, rain water contains trace amounts of CO2, that acts as a acid, that leads to decomposition via hydrolysis, where a mineral is broken down to clay, in that process silica acid is produced.

some plants can speed up that process but the mechanisme behind is still not resolved.

I know that u can see structures in those diatomic fossils but they are opac and with out any crystal structur, rember they are organic and was not created at high P-T conditions and you need that to make crystal stuctures in the silica system, not going to spam you with phase diagrams n such, but as stated before feldspars and other minerals are termodynamically more easy do brake down..

Also those diatomics are from the eocene periode and more then 30 millions year old, hence they are super stabel =P

Sorry to correct you but i think we all need to rember that we are just super smart stoners with a huge love to oure hobby

 

[Only Ornamental]

@Dkgrower
There's a tremendous difference in amorphous silica and aluminosilicate minerals . The former doesn't need an acid or a base as catalyst (besides, the pH caused by carbonic acid favors polymerisation!). Not entirely convinced that CO2 really accelerates corrosion of feldspar but I never really cared about that either... Low soil pH is also due to sulfuric and nitric acid (acid rain) and organic compounds (p.ex. organic acids, tannins, humic acid etc.). Plants and microorganisms secrete a broad range of compounds alongside enzymes which help degrade minerals. AFAIK (I may be wrong), silicic acid is mostly indirectly liberated when for example plants liberate potassium and calcium from a mineral and hence break the crystal structure. Although, this mostly leads to leaking of complex bound atoms and leads less to a complete destruction of the structure. Hence, the aluminosilicate 'backbone' stays intact longer than what's between its sheets/combs/whatever.

 

[CoCoSativas]

@CoCoSativas
You sure he's growing in hydro? Thought he's talking OD as he's taking river water somewhere upstream... And OD plus river water usually doesn't need pH adjustment (maybe soil amendment, best prior to planting).
Possible I missed something but his main concern (at least his first one mentioned) is the protekt going cloudy and not some sick plants.

Cant really rule out ph or calcium reaction without knowing ph or hardness and it its a problem. What if his riverwater is like 600 ppm cabonate? Probably not ideal to just pour in protekt... Could cause the cloudyness right? Hot tub test strips would tell you water hardness for 3 bucks for 100, i know i have a thing of them... Anyway im interested in what the problem is and would love to learn. If im off and someone tells me, lucky me i learned somethin new.

He may not be growing hydro, but if you mix hydro nutrients together and make a solution to pour into dirt plants you are still making a hydro solution right? Ive never used hydro food in dirt but you do still ph it right? Forgive me if my understanding is off, im kinda going off how my coco works and it needs a properly phed when using bottles of netrients...

Anyway i would love to let you phds figure this out, cause its way above my head. Its pretty interesting and im just goint to watch from here on out cause this stuffs making my head hurt...

 

[Dkgrower]

@Dkgrower
There's a tremendous difference in amorphous silica and aluminosilicate minerals . The former doesn't need an acid or a base as catalyst (besides, the pH caused by carbonic acid favors polymerisation!). Not entirely convinced that CO2 really accelerates corrosion of feldspar but I never really cared about that either... Low soil pH is also due to sulfuric and nitric acid (acid rain) and organic compounds (p.ex. organic acids, tannins, humic acid etc.). Plants and microorganisms secrete a broad range of compounds alongside enzymes which help degrade minerals. AFAIK (I may be wrong), silicic acid is mostly indirectly liberated when for example plants liberate potassium and calcium from a mineral and hence break the crystal structure. Although, this mostly leads to leaking of complex bound atoms and leads less to a complete destruction of the structure. Hence, the aluminosilicate 'backbone' stays intact longer than what's between its sheets/combs/whatever.

Sorry if my english is bad, but when did i say that silica n feldspars where the same, i got a master degree in geology so your comment made me smile

4KalSi3O8 + 4H(+) + 18H2O ----> Si4Al4O10 + 4K + 8Si(OH) reaction where feldspar gets hydrolysed to clay with subsequent release of kalium and mono silica acid or PAS

I will stop here since you really dont care and its off topip, but i still stand on my point that feldspar rich rock, volcanic n granites are better to add than diatomite.

 

[Kygiacomo!!!]

I just overflew most posts, sorry if this is going to be a repetition.
The reason for cloudiness of potassium silicate solutions is most likely due to high mineral content in the water you use; river water is likely to be rich in lime. Silicate salts are for example incompatible with calcium and magnesium and form insoluble deposits.
You could use an ion exchange cartridge to 'clean' the river water before mixing with protekt or take some pure water with you to prepare a pre-dilution prior to adding river water or apply that concentrate directly before you water... The calcium silicate 'clouds' will still be active but need a lot more time to be taken up by the plants. Another alternative would be to fertilise directly with solid calcium silicate before you plant or switch the product. For outdoor growing, I would as well go with DE. Besides, are you sure you even need silica? Well, with the hard water you might be in a sediment or lime stone region. But if you have for example granite, mica, or clay rich soil, adding silica is like powering table salt spoon-wise into the ocean .

hmm i didnt even think about mixing up a bit here at the house and then taking it with me. i live in the hills of the appalachian mountains so im guessing they are all sorts of lime. the soil im using right now is happy frog/ocean forest on all my plants except 4 which is in living soil. i had to dig a bunch of new holes this year bc i did more plants than last year. i never use the local dirt bc its all old blue or yellow clay. i just dig holes and replace the empty hole with the above potting mix's. i got 1 quart left of protekt and i will use it up till its gone then i will be switching to the DE for future grows..

Edit: yo can u give me a link to the logical gardener. i am a member there as well