Origins of the Virus

[gaiusmarius]

Once anything has been targeted by the powers that be it's day's are numbered.

i was being some what hyperbolic i do admit about the WHO, it has a large remit after all and must do a lot of good in the world. but they let us down big time with this virus. imagine if they had advised everyone to shut down all non essential travel right in the beginning, when the evidence first showed it spreading from human to human fast. that was the moment when it could have been chocked off, but no, they specifically criticized those nations that did close their borders. when that is in fact the age old solution to pandemics, you close your gates and let no one come or go till the plague is past.

Tedros needs to go and a real independent scientist with no conflicts of interest with China, the US or big pharma needs to replace him, they also need to revoke Bill Gates member state status. once you get some un conflicted leadership in there, they could clean it up and it could be a great tool again for global health.

btw, i noticed it was you Gry, who actually shared the newspaper article that linked me up to the above proposed origin theory.

 

[gaiusmarius]

Dr. Bret Weinstein: Evidence FOR And AGAINST Lab Leak Hypothesis

 

[Microbeman]

"Bats in the province of Yunnan in southern China have yielded yet more coronaviruses closely related to the pandemic virus.

Weifeng Shi at the Shandong First Medical University & Shandong Academy of Medical Sciences in Taian, China, and his colleagues studied 302 samples of faeces and urine and 109 mouth swabs taken from 342 live bats between May 2019 and November 2020 (H. Zhou et al. Preprint at bioRxiv https://doi.org/gh73mk; 2021). The researchers trapped and released all the bats, which represented nearly two dozen species, in an area covering roughly 1,100 hectares — less than one-tenth the size of San Francisco, California.

From the samples, the team sequenced 24 coronavirus genomes, of which 4 were new viruses closely related to SARS-CoV-2. One of the viruses isolated from a Rhinolophus pusillus bat shared 94.5% of its genome with the pandemic virus, making it the second-closest known relative to SARS-CoV-2. The closest known relative is a coronavirus called RATG13, which shares 96% of its genome with SARS-CoV-2 and was isolated from a Rhinolophus affinis bat in Yunnan in 2013.

The results suggest that viruses closely related to SARS-CoV-2 continue to circulate in bats and are highly prevalent in some regions, the researchers say. The findings have not yet been peer reviewed."
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00502-w

So where do you think those isolated viruses ended up for further study? Does it walk like a duck?

 

[St. Phatty]

Chris Martenson & Newsweek spelled it out, partway, about 9 months ago.


Now we just need a press release from the NIH, going public about their 2x $3.7 million contracts.


And maybe to inject Fauci with Sodium Pentothal and ask him some questions.


Covid19 is not a natural organism.

 

[Chi13]

this is the most plausible and complete explanation for covid 19 i have read to date. took some browsing, but i found it and saved it here for your information. if you know of an equally complete and compelling paper showing the totally natural, random nature of this event then please share it.

A Proposed Origin for SARS-CoV-2 and the COVID-19 Pandemic

https://www.independentsciencenews.o...d-19-pandemic/

Gaius, can I ask how you are qualified to make that assumption that this is the "most plausible and complete explanation for covid 19"? I mean are you a virologist, epidemiologist, or even a scientist? Seems to me that you spend the time to search for articles that support your preconceived view. I'll bet it "took some browsing".The article is non peer reviewed from what I can find out. I am not qualified to fully understand what they outline in that article at an academic level, and I bet no one else here is either. Until there is any actual evidence I am going on with the most likely explanation.

Does anyone have any actual evidence that this escaped from the lab? It seems the WHO are the only ones who have actually been there and looked into it in any great detail. They have concluded that it is extremely unlikely to have escaped from the lab. I know the WHO is particularly unpopular with a certain demographic, but there's no other organisation that is likely to do this work that I'm aware of.

Viruses and diseases have gone from animals to humans throughout history, long before labs. We live in times of increased population, close contact with animals, both wild and domestic, especially in countries such as China. These things are going to happen from time to time as they have in the past.

If any evidence does become available that actually points to a lab accident/ release I am happy to accept it. At present there is nothing but theory; a lot of which seems based on politics.

 

[aridbud]

As far as i can determine, SARS2/covid19 is the only virus that enters human cells using ACE2 receptor sites. There are viruses that enter through the ACE2 receptors in other animals however. This article explains why this is important and why it makes his virus so dangerous.
https://theconversation.com/what-is...-treating-covid-19-the-experts-explain-136928

If I was going to design an efficient and lethal virus, that is the pathway that i would use. Although the virus is classified as a respiratory virus because that is how it’s spread from person to person, it acts as a vascular virus because of its method of entry and its internal method of destruction.

I say this to demonstrate its uniqueness and its ability to do real harm, both on an individual basis and within a larger population.
While I believe the virus probably originated in a natural environment, the information i provided above makes me question its origin more than i otherwise would.

Another possibility is a combination of natural origin combined with a laboratory mishap/escape. There are virus hunters that search through natural habitats in South America, Asia and elsewhere. They seek out wild bats, birds, etc looking for unique viruses. They then take these viruses and study them in a laboratory. I believe i read that the Wuhan lab is/was involved in such research.

I also remember reading that the world military games were held in Wuhan in September, 2019 and there was a mysterious respiratory illness circulating amongst the athletes. If the virus were brought to Wuhan during the games, it could easily imagine that it would take a month or two to hit the critical levels that were seen in China in December’19/January’20. So, another possibility was that it actually originated elsewhere, but the parabolic spread occurred in Wuhan. There is precedent, as the “Spanish Flu” actually is believed to have originated in Kansas, although during the pandemic, it was believed to have originated in Spain.

Excellent article! Was talking to RN friend tonight of respiratory droplets and cleaning, as it's spread through vapors. Then she touched on the

To maintain morale, World War I censors minimized these early reports. Newspapers were free to report the epidemic's effects in neutral Spain, such as the grave illness of King Alfonso XIII, and these stories created a false impression of Spain as especially hard hit. This gave rise to the name "Spanish" flu.

The 1918 influenza pandemic was the most severe pandemic in recent history. It was caused by an H1N1 virus with genes of avian origin. Although there is not universal consensus regarding where the virus originated, it spread worldwide during 1918-1919. Watched the PBS special on the 1918 pandemic, and seems to have originated from a chicken farm in Riley, Kansas as Amynamous mentioned.

Influenza A viruses have infected many different animals, including ducks, chickens, pigs, whales, horses, and seals. However, certain subtypes of influenza A virus are specific to certain species, except for birds, which are hosts to all known subtypes of influenza A viruses. Currently circulating Influenza A subtypes in humans are H3N2 and H1N1 viruses. Examples of different influenza A virus subtypes that have infected animals to cause outbreaks include H1N1 and H3N2 virus infections of pigs, and H7N7 and H3N8 virus infections of horses.

Lots of gnarly viruses caused by bats and rodents. Black Plague, anyone? Bats and rodents are considered high-risk viral reservoirs — a source for diseases that can hop over to humans, and sometimes lead to epidemics. Some scientists have even argued that the animals have certain traits that increase the likelihood of spillover events from animal to people, and that they should be monitored more closely as a result. But a new analysis suggests that bats and rodents are “unexceptional” in their propensity to host viruses that infect humans. Again, labs studying animals.

 

[gaiusmarius]

Gaius, can I ask how you are qualified to make that assumption that this is the "most plausible and complete explanation for covid 19"? I mean are you a virologist, epidemiologist, or even a scientist? Seems to me that you spend the time to search for articles that support your preconceived view. I'll bet it "took some browsing".The article is non peer reviewed from what I can find out. I am not qualified to fully understand what they outline in that article at an academic level, and I bet no one else here is either. Until there is any actual evidence I am going on with the most likely explanation.

Does anyone have any actual evidence that this escaped from the lab? It seems the WHO are the only ones who have actually been there and looked into it in any great detail. They have concluded that it is extremely unlikely to have escaped from the lab. I know the WHO is particularly unpopular with a certain demographic, but there's no other organisation that is likely to do this work that I'm aware of.

Viruses and diseases have gone from animals to humans throughout history, long before labs. We live in times of increased population, close contact with animals, both wild and domestic, especially in countries such as China. These things are going to happen from time to time as they have in the past.

If any evidence does become available that actually points to a lab accident/ release I am happy to accept it. At present there is nothing but theory; a lot of which seems based on politics.

you funny you know that? i said it was the best explanation, that I HAD READ! hello?

i also asked for any articles making an equally convincing case for a natural coincidence being the origin. you say a big coincidence of nature is the most likely explanation, tell me why? how do you know whats likely or not? you say that i can't make the call and i agree, which is why i didnt. you on the other hand seem to feel secure enough to claim the opposite is true, with no explanation for the passaging, no explanation for the way it seems to be made for humans even though it comes from a bat. there are so many strange things about this virus that believing the natural coincidence explanation requires just as much imagination as thinking it could be a lab leak. in fact the lab leak explains things much better and is more plausible under the facts as we know them.

show me your best evidence pls, im happy to be convinced by convincing arguments. show me the study you think proves the natural coincidence theory of origin. show me the evidence you used to come to the conclusion that you know the most likely answer.

BTW. Tedros the compromised WHO boss has just come out and said that the lab leak theory needs investigating. he also said that the Chinese refused to provide RAW source data. so sure, take that shady, year late, WHO investigation for the truth if you like, ill wait for the raw data to make my opinion.

 

[gaiusmarius]

did you guys read, yesterday yahoo ran an article saying the cdc recons its time to put away all the sanitizers and stop all the crazy disinfection of surfaces in private settings. i realized months and months ago that washing your hands with soap is all you need. have not used a drop of hand sanitizer since 6 months. it was never logical to believe covid could spread through surfaces, had that been true, we would be in a real pandemic with 10 to 20% mortality or more. it was always about sharing air for prolonged periods and finally the authorities are admitting it.

2 days ago i read a British minister saying it was time to accept that we wont be getting rid of covid and that life must go on anyway.

with any luck sanity will return before we are fully stuck in the authoritarian surveillance state nightmare they are building for us, for ever.

 

[Amynamous]

did you guys read, yesterday yahoo ran an article saying the cdc recons its time to put away all the sanitizers and stop all the crazy disinfection of surfaces in private settings. i realized months and months ago that washing your hands with soap is all you need. have not used a drop of hand sanitizer since 6 months. it was never logical to believe covid could spread through surfaces, had that been true, we would be in a real pandemic with 10 to 20% mortality or more. it was always about sharing air for prolonged periods and finally the authorities are admitting it.

2 days ago i read a British minister saying it was time to accept that we wont be getting rid of covid and that life must go on anyway.

with any luck sanity will return before we are fully stuck in the authoritarian surveillance state nightmare they are building for us, for ever.

I read that and was bothered by it. While droplet/aerosol transmission appears to be the predominant method of human to human spread, it doesn’t necessarily mean that fomites are not responsible for some transmission, does it? We’ve been told for decades that colds and flu viruses are spread through fomites. Is this not the same for Sars2? Or is Sars2 special in some way that makes it more susceptible to environmental conditions than other viruses.
My questions are rhetorical and I expect that eventually we will know the answers.

As an aside, i disagree with the “authoritarian state” narrative. In my opinion, the primary job of government is to keep its citizens safe. This was true in the pandemic of 1918-1920 and is equally true today. While the degree of the shutdown mentality seems more extreme today, the masks mandates, social distancing and vaccination protocols(for other diseases) appears no more severe today than they were last century.

 

[gaiusmarius]

I read that and was bothered by it. While droplet/aerosol transmission appears to be the predominant method of human to human spread, it doesn’t necessarily mean that fomites are not responsible for some transmission, does it? We’ve been told for decades that colds and flu viruses are spread through fomites. Is this not the same for Sars2? Or is Sars2 special in some way that makes it more susceptible to environmental conditions than other viruses.
My questions are rhetorical and I expect that eventually we will know the answers.

As an aside, i disagree with the “authoritarian state” narrative. In my opinion, the primary job of government is to keep its citizens safe. This was true in the pandemic of 1918-1920 and is equally true today. While the degree of the shutdown mentality seems more extreme today, the masks mandates, social distancing and vaccination protocols(for other diseases) appears no more severe today than they were last century.

well its easy to explain, the virus particles they find on surfaces are dead, they are not able to cultivate a live virus from any samples taken from surfaces, even in an infected persons home the surfaces did not allow a live covid virus to be cultivated from it.

with flue its a different story, they can grow it from samples taken from surfaces.

 

[gaiusmarius]

i don't think police were busting kids birthday parties in the Spanish flue? i don't think anyone was promoting complete tracking of the population, police were not arresting people for going to the beach, baby showers were not shut down in private home by the authorities. you didnt lose your right to go outside, you didnt lose your right to assemble and hold meetings with your community about important issues. you didnt get told, get this experimental vaccine and put this track and trace app on your phone so we can track and trace your every step, or we cancel your human inborn rights. neighbours were not informing on each other for having more then 5 people at their home either if im not mistaken. people did what they did to protect them selves out of self preservation. today governments are using violence and coercion on anyone not doing what the government idiots think is for the best, with no regards for human rights. from a 2 weeks shut down to flatten the hospitalization rate to over a year to achieve i do no longer know what. it has to stop. im too fucking old to go marching in the street, but im getting to the point where i will have to join the youth and support them fighting for their rights back. governments better take note, when someone like i get to that point, its not a good sign. i never protested anything except weed laws in my life.

 

[Amynamous]

i don't think police were busting kids birthday parties in the Spanish flue? i don't think anyone was promoting complete tracking of the population, police were not arresting people for going to the beach, baby showers were not shut down in private home by the authorities. you didnt lose your right to go outside, you didnt lose your right to assemble and hold meetings with your community about important issues. you didnt get told, get this experimental vaccine and put this track and trace app on your phone so we can track and trace your every step, or we cancel your human inborn rights. neighbours were not informing on each other for having more then 5 people at their home either if im not mistaken. people did what they did to protect them selves out of self preservation. today governments are using violence and coercion on anyone not doing what the government idiots think is for the best, with no regards for human rights. from a 2 weeks shut down to flatten the hospitalization rate to over a year to achieve i do no longer know what. it has to stop. im too fucking old to go marching in the street, but im getting to the point where i will have to join the youth and support them fighting for their rights back. governments better take note, when someone like i get to that point, its not a good sign. i never protested anything except weed laws in my life.

We can agree to disagree. I believe the primary purpose of government is public safety. I also believe that my right to be safe from others is more important than someone else’s right to go to the beach or their right to have a birthday party or engage in behaviors that threaten my safety. Iirc, the supreme court has repeatedly supported this opinion during/after the pandemic of 1918. Perhaps the current SCOTUS will overturn the previous precedents.

I am a nurse and I strongly believe in and support protective public health measures, particularly in the face of a massive global pandemic that has infected more than 133,000,000 people and killed almost 3,000,000 people around the world. I suppose that makes me biased. So be it.

FWIW, There is also precedent for the government for taking extraordinary measures against our population when posed with extraordinary threats. That occurred during WW2 when the government rationed and/or seized basic supplies, took over manufacturing and conscripted young lives in the interest of national defense. So far, the US has had twice as many casualties from covid19 than casualties from WW2 and in less than half the time. Funny, but I don’t recall any stories about people complaining about losing their “rights” to the government even though lots of soldiers lost their life and/or their liberty during that time. We got past the temporary loss of rights in the 1940’s and we will get past this too. Again, we can agree to disagree.

 

[gaiusmarius]

public health measures have to make sense, telling people they can't go to the beach because of covid is stupid, you don't catch covid outside in the sun and fresh air, you catch it in hospitals and offices and homes, you know INSIDE.

you can sure disagree with what ever you like, but i would like to note that you said the same stuff was done in the 1918 pandemic, i was pointing out how thats very unlikely. at this point you change track and seem to actually approve of the total tyranny involved in invading peoples private homes for public health reasons.

it would be 1 thing if the government rules were consistent and logical, or if we could trust them to ever give up all the new power they grabbed, but we can't.

comparing this to ww2 really deserves no comment. you seem to think only your yanky lives matter, but ww2 cost the world around 90 million lives my friend, just cause you guys got off light, you seem to forget about eryone else it seems. ever hear of the 6 million by any chance? yep that was in ww2. what about the 28 million dead Russians? also in ww2.

 

[Gry]

i don't think police were busting kids birthday parties in the Spanish flue? i don't think anyone was promoting complete tracking of the population, police were not arresting people for going to the beach, baby showers were not shut down in private home by the authorities. you didnt lose your right to go outside, you didnt lose your right to assemble and hold meetings with your community about important issues. you didnt get told, get this experimental vaccine and put this track and trace app on your phone so we can track and trace your every step, or we cancel your human inborn rights. neighbours were not informing on each other for having more then 5 people at their home either if im not mistaken. people did what they did to protect them selves out of self preservation. today governments are using violence and coercion on anyone not doing what the government idiots think is for the best, with no regards for human rights. from a 2 weeks shut down to flatten the hospitalization rate to over a year to achieve i do no longer know what. it has to stop. im too fucking old to go marching in the street, but im getting to the point where i will have to join the youth and support them fighting for their rights back. governments better take note, when someone like i get to that point, its not a good sign. i never protested anything except weed laws in my life.

My understanding is that many of the public health laws in the US stem from what was learned as a result of
the "Spanish" flu. Big pharma did not have the kind of political strength then, that it now does, which sure changed things.
You list several sad and intrusive events, and then mention governments in plural. Where did the events described take place ?
I think that we have a decent group of people here who have done an admirable job tracking this.

 

[jwm]

The lab. Definitely!

 

[gaiusmarius]

My understanding is that many of the public health laws in the US stem from what was learned as a result of
the "Spanish" flu. Big pharma did not have the kind of political strength then, that it now does, which sure changed things.
You list several sad and intrusive events, and then mention governments in plural. Where did the events described take place ?
I think that we have a decent group of people here who have done an admirable job tracking this.

indeed my list was constructed from events from all over the EU, Britain had some of the craziest stories, British cops were proudly posting themselves busting baby showers, birthdays etc. the French were very close behind, same with Belgium. even the Germans are going insane. in Spain, even now, 6 year olds playing football on the beach, are forced to wear masks, but thats after they were forbidden from going outside for many months. the one thing that will keep you healthy with a strong immune system, getting sun and exercise, they forbid for months and months, now they are surprised they have people dieing in high numbers in those places.

what about curfews, eh? what kind of insane shit is that about? as if the virus has a clock.

luckily my nation didnt ever go that far. our right to our homes inviolability from officials without a legal warrant is still sacrosanct. we never had a curfew and we were never told you can't go outside. we never had to write ourselves permission slips to go to the grocery store. our kids were always free to play outside. still, even here we have closed businesses, restaurants, clubs, bars, not even terraces are allowed, only take away. even our right to protest is being infringed here with the covid excuse, even though the highest court said they have to allow protests, various cities are just denying permits and setting the cops on people that gather anyway. recently there are more and more groups having big outdoor covid protest parties which are getting more violent towards the authorities too.

 

[St. Phatty]

As an aside, i disagree with the “authoritarian state” narrative. In my opinion, the primary job of government is to keep its citizens safe.

Not in the US, not recently.

 

[Chi13]

public health measures have to make sense, telling people they can't go to the beach because of covid is stupid, you don't catch covid outside in the sun and fresh air, you catch it in hospitals and offices and homes, you know INSIDE.

you can sure disagree with what ever you like, but i would like to note that you said the same stuff was done in the 1918 pandemic, i was pointing out how thats very unlikely. at this point you change track and seem to actually approve of the total tyranny involved in invading peoples private homes for public health reasons.

it would be 1 thing if the government rules were consistent and logical, or if we could trust them to ever give up all the new power they grabbed, but we can't.

comparing this to ww2 really deserves no comment. you seem to think only your yanky lives matter, but ww2 cost the world around 90 million lives my friend, just cause you guys got off light, you seem to forget about eryone else it seems. ever hear of the 6 million by any chance? yep that was in ww2. what about the 28 million dead Russians? also in ww2.

I agree that you are very unlikely to catch covid in the sun and fresh air, but it is still possible, especially at crowded events. Our beaches here are insanely crowded. There are good articles about different public health responses in the Spanish Flu between St Louis and Philadelphia. One closed down, the other did not. Guess which public health measures led to less deaths?
Philadelphia organised a parade.
"On September 28, a patriotic procession of soldiers, Boy Scouts, marching bands and local dignitaries stretched two miles through downtown Philadelphia with sidewalks packed with spectators.
Just 72 hours after the parade, all 31 of Philadelphia’s hospitals were full and 2,600 people were dead by the end of the week."
https://history.com/news/spanish-flu-pandemic-response-cities

In Australia the public health measures during the Spanish flu were remarkably similar to what is happening today. It broke out here due to returning troops breaking quarantine. Borders were closed, public gatherings banned (cinemas, churches, schools, dance halls), face masks compulsory. There were shortages of goods, and the health system was overrun.
https://theconversation.com/how-aust...navirus-134017

We have had various outbreaks here but Covid is mostly under control. The government resposne has been lockdowns, compulsory mask wearing etc. As the danger has changed, our government has reduced or stopped these measure, and reintroduced them where necessary. It is just rubbish to say that they won't "ever give up all the new power they grabbed". All we are seeing is a response to a health crisis. I have argued all my life around human rights, especially for the vulnerable. I really don't equate current meauses around Covid as anything to do with freedom or rights. With rights comes responsibility to other members of society. Do you want freedom to infect other people with a potentially deadly disease? That's what it seems to equate to me, and it seems incredibly selfish.

 

[Amynamous]

i don't think police were busting kids birthday parties in the Spanish flue? i don't think anyone was promoting complete tracking of the population, police were not arresting people for going to the beach, baby showers were not shut down in private home by the authorities. you didnt lose your right to go outside, you didnt lose your right to assemble and hold meetings with your community about important issues. you didnt get told, get this experimental vaccine and put this track and trace app on your phone so we can track and trace your every step, or we cancel your human inborn rights. neighbours were not informing on each other for having more then 5 people at their home either if im not mistaken. people did what they did to protect them selves out of self preservation. today governments are using violence and coercion on anyone not doing what the government idiots think is for the best, with no regards for human rights. from a 2 weeks shut down to flatten the hospitalization rate to over a year to achieve i do no longer know what. it has to stop. im too fucking old to go marching in the street, but im getting to the point where i will have to join the youth and support them fighting for their rights back. governments better take note, when someone like i get to that point, its not a good sign. i never protested anything except weed laws in my life.

For some strange reason, i thought you were an American, so i answered as if you were an American. My apologies.
I for one, do not feel “stuck in an authoritarian surveillance state nightmare”.

As an aside, by their very nature, viruses are neither living nor dead. Viruses do not eat, sleep, breath or procreate. Viruses are, simply stated, a very small piece of genetic material that is able to self-replicate if and when the conditions are right, by hijacking a cell’s internal structures. The cell is destroyed in the process and the replicated viruses then move on, repeating the process.

I am familiar with the difficulty that scientists have had with attempting to replicate the sars2 virus when collected from surfaces and have yet to read/hear why this virus is different from other virus that can spread through fomites. However, Just because scientists haven’t been able to replicate them in a lab, doesn’t convince me that when the virus lands on a surface it is incapable of replicating inside of a host. While that may very well be true, this virus has continually proven to surprise us with it’s insidious nature and i will continue behaving as if public area surfaces are contaminated.

 

[aridbud]

For some strange reason, i thought you were an American, so i answered as if you were an American. My apologies.
I for one, do not feel “stuck in an authoritarian surveillance state nightmare”. [<<<<<<Nor do I!!!!!!]

As an aside, by their very nature, viruses are neither living nor dead. Viruses do not eat, sleep, breath or procreate. Viruses are, simply stated, a very small piece of genetic material that is able to self-replicate if and when the conditions are right, by hijacking a cell’s internal structures. The cell is destroyed in the process and the replicated viruses then move on, repeating the process.

I am familiar with the difficulty that scientists have had with attempting to replicate the sars2 virus when collected from surfaces and have yet to read/hear why this virus is different from other virus that can spread through fomites. However, Just because scientists haven’t been able to replicate them in a lab, doesn’t convince me that when the virus lands on a surface it is incapable of replicating inside of a host. While that may very well be true, this virus has continually proven to surprise us with it’s insidious nature and i will continue behaving as if public area surfaces are contaminated.

Yup. Think of all the viruses that have cut lives short. Great documentary from 2012, HOW TO SURVIVE A PLAGUE. Showed Dr. Fauci as young(er) doctor dealing with AIDS crisis world wide, namely the USA. In a way, that shows lame government dragging their heels (Reagan, Bush) until Clinton took a keen interest for $$$$ for research, a better cocktail of Rx, PSA regarding AIDS.

Seems it's similar to what we have experienced/endured this past 379 days, after everything shut down mid-March.