Tutorial Organics for Beginners

[vonforne]

Hey guys, I'm fairly new to icmag, but I was an avid overgrower. I was wondering how long my nutrient solution would be good for sitting in a covered res with an air pump and airstone. I'm using liquid age old bloom, LK, and blackstrap molasses with a touch of humic acid derivative. Will it be good for 72+ hours?

Thanks for any pointers

I would not go beyond 36 hours. Your rez will start to build up bio-slime and ten your problems will start.

V

 

[vonforne]

great resource! thanks!

i've been growing my vegetables organically in containers for years. i always figured i'd grow my herb the same way!

I do a very similar feed as described in the OP using fish emulsion and kelp/seaweed extract.

this has surely been addressed a hundred times, but i'm still looking for the best source of phosphorus to boost my fruiting/flowering yields/quality. any fish/kelp users got a third magic food?

also plan on starting a worm compost, although i know that wont be ready for at least a grow cycle or two. my friend has had excellent results from feeding with compost tea.

Compost tea is a must!! From start to finish of your grow cycle.

If you are looking for a boost during flowering.....try K-Mag Natural better known as Sul-Po-mag @ 1 TSP per gallon of water every other watering.

V

 

[vonforne]

Ive consistently had horrible leaf issues using RECIPE #1 mid-late flower. I've read many posts by trusted posters of this section promoting various amendments so I ended up mixing per gal LC MIX

(bold = modification of RECIPE #1)

1 TBS blood
2 TBS bone
1 TBS kelp
1 TBS jersey greensand
1 TBS azomite
1 TBS rock phosphate
1 tsp sul-po-mag

I let this mix "cook" for 6-8 months turning at least once a week and allowing it to stay moist. I Followed the Lacto B guide here also and wet it with that once at recommended dilluted rate. Anything I put into this mix seems to burn / become crispy within 12-18 hours of transplant. Moneys tight and no local stores carry EWC this time of year.

So far I've lost a BB Mom put into 50% LC mix 50% mix listed above, and these 2 seedlings which are in 2 GAL LC mix 1 GAL modified recipe #1 appear to be in trouble as well. Any ideas on what I should do?

I would bet you made a mistake in your math some were. You should not have any problems with the items you mentioned unless you miss counted on amounts. Too much of anything could cause problems.

Keep us posted.

V

 

[asdmo]

von do u have any suggestions on how to brew the tea?
ive been growing my plants for 1 month now without any teas with lc mix #1... Ive looked around and i see the 5 gal pvc method and the airstone ones, which do you prefer??

 

[vonforne]

I'm making some Lc #1 and I have blood, bone and kelp, but I wanted some tips\suggestions on how to incorporate some new things into it. I'm mainly just poor at math so the amounts to add get confusing with more ingredients, but I really want to spruce it up a tid bit. The amount of soil i'm making;

5 cu ft. Canada Sphagnum Peat
3 cu. ft. perlite
2 cu. ft. ewc\compost
Total=10 cu.ft., so roughly 70 gal.

LC #1
5 cups blood
10 cups bone
5 cups kelp.


I want to incorporate neem seed, alfalfa, and cottonseed meals. soft rock phosphate, glacial rock dust, azomite, and maybe get some sul po mag...no guanos or 'feeding' teas, just top-dressing EWC, and watering with ACT, or seaweed\fish hydrosylate....if needed in veg. Also I was wondering if I should just drop the cottonseed meal since I heard it can come from farms that use pesticides? It's just really cheap..

I was thinking of cutting back on the blood (since it's gross) with seed meals..I can get flax seeds which i can blend up to a meal plus the above mentioned ones. Ditto on the soft rock phosphate instead of bones.

I guess in a nutshell what amounts of each of these elements should I add to each Cu. Ft. of my 10 cu. ft. of Lc #1

Thanks

I li8ke to add a little of everything.

Example- for N 1 TBS Alfalfa and 1 TBS Blood meal or Fish meal.

You will be best served by diversity......as much as you can get.

And yes cotton seed meal is not the best as far as pesticides go.

With the rock powders you cannot go wrong. Mineral diversity works wnders and lasts a very long time in the soil mix.

Rule of thumb to start with is 1 to 2 TBS per gallon.

16 TBS = 1 cup

V

V

 

[Yoric]

You will be ok. The pellets work just fine. Are you sure it is pellets or granular?

V

It's the consistency of pearock... perhaps a little smaller. Larger than sea salt, smaller than pearock. Not smooth on the sides.

Thank you very much for the response!

 

[vonforne]

von do u have any suggestions on how to brew the tea?
ive been growing my plants for 1 month now without any teas with lc mix #1... Ive looked around and i see the 5 gal pvc method and the airstone ones, which do you prefer??

If you only have a few plants then the Fish tank aerator with an airstone used in 1 to 2 gallons of water will be just fine. I only have a few plants.....not more than 10 usually these days so the fish tank aerator works just fine for me. If you have more than that then the PVC version works great. Here is a web link when you can get instructions on haw to build your own.

http://www.microbeorganics.com/

 

[vonforne]

It's the consistency of pearock... perhaps a little smaller. Larger than sea salt, smaller than pearock. Not smooth on the sides.

Thank you very much for the response!

Granular. You will be fine, I use a granular to feed my worms in their bins.


No problem with the help......that is why we are here.

V

 

[vonforne]

P guano?
as in high in phos?
Good for Flower right?
Thats what I planned on getting.


I have read some things about tea making, and that doesn't seem like something I would be great at doing lol. Unless it's easy and cheap I don't want to invest into making tea's like that.

I'm just looking for a way to add guano to my plants that are just hopping into Flower and it seems like adding a top dressing is the easiest way to go.

thanks!

Get a 2 gallon bucket
Fill with 1 gallon water
Add 1 handful EWC
1 TSP Molasses
Bubble for 24 hours @ 70 degrees


and you have just made a Compost tea.

It is so easy a caveman could do it.

V

 

[vonforne]

grapeman

The Excite Seaweed is a brand of Acadian Seaplants, Ltd. The label should read Excite Seaweed Soluble Seaweed Extract 1-1-17 [cite] which is the same exact product as the Acadian Marine Plant Extract Powder 1-1-17 [cite]

Acadian Seaplants, Ltd. is the registrant and Excite is one of the labels. They have another label for a liquid product that starts with an 'F' but I can't recall the name. Another good product.

The brochure that I picked-up a couple of years had an suggested application rate of 1.5 tsp. per gallon which was for a foliar application. That is the amount that I use for irrigating - I don't increase it.

Very good product and widely used by the organic farmers in this part of the world as well as the Acadian Seaplant's Organic Kelp Meal.

HTH

CC

Speaking of seaweed........I found a distributor for Kelpak here in Germany. I will be ordering some soon.

Just wanted to say Thank you for that tip CC. I can´t wait to try it out on my next run.

V

 

[grapeman]

Speaking of seaweed........I found a distributor for Kelpak here in Germany. I will be ordering some soon.

Just wanted to say Thank you for that tip CC. I can´t wait to try it out on my next run.

V

V - I've gone back to Acadian from KelPak. I still use Kelpak (I got a 10 years supply with 5 gallons) but only early on in veg at a 2% solution as a soil drench. More cyto's in kelpak but I like the overall look of my plants thru the entire cycle with Acadian. CC may have a different take, but that's my 2 cent observation from here deep in the desert.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

V - I've gone back to Acadian from KelPak. I still use Kelpak (I got a 10 years supply with 5 gallons) but only early on in veg at a 2% solution as a soil drench. More cyto's in kelpak but I like the overall look of my plants thru the entire cycle with Acadian. CC may have a different take, but that's my 2 cent observation from here deep in the desert.

grapeman

Here's what I like about KELPAK - it's minimally processed, i.e. there is no chemical extraction processed used. They use a mechanical extraction process where the material is pressed out of the kelp mass.

Here's what I do not like about KELPAK - from their documentation they manipulate some auxins (hormones) to increase root development. While they don't name them specifically, it's a pretty safe bet that they talking about IAA (Indole-3-acetic acid) and NAA (Naphthalene acetic acid).

IAA provides for cell elongation and NAA provides for cell formation - two completely different functions. These auxins were identified over 70 years ago at Oxford University and eventually were isolated for use in rooting compounds sold to commercial nurseries. All rooting products sold at grow stores will have one or both of these hormones. Usually both.

It's in that manipulation of these auxins which is giving you the best results on new(er) plants perhaps. Increased root mass.

ASL (whatever the label) uses a cold alkaline extraction method vs. the hot alkaline method used by Maxicrop. Both use the same variety of kelp whereas KELPAK uses the South Atlantic Kelp variety. ASL claims that their method provides for much higher microbial activity in their products.

Where KELPAK has gained in commercial agricultural and horticultural fields is that it's a clear liquid completely free of any matter that could clog the sprayers (aerial and ground-based) and as you know better than 99.99999% of the folks on this venue, that's a huge consideration. It's also the one used by hydroponic 'nute' manufacturers because it's clear it doesn't interfere with their color schemes. Or any of their other schemes I'm guessing.

The reason that I strongly recommend ASL is that they're one of a handful of companies processing kelp extract for health supplements, i.e. human food-grade. Obviously the product that I use (same one that you bought) isn't the human stuff but in looking at videos of the processing plant in Nova Scotia it's obvious that this is one of the most advanced in the world.

Once cautionary note - you must keep the ASL products away from moisture because it definitely will clump making accurate measuring a PITA. I speak from personal experience.

HTH

CC

 

[grapeman]

grapeman

Here's what I like about KELPAK - it's minimally processed, i.e. there is no chemical extraction processed used. They use a mechanical extraction process where the material is pressed out of the kelp mass.

Here's what I do not like about KELPAK - from their documentation they manipulate some auxins (hormones) to increase root development. While they don't name them specifically, it's a pretty safe bet that they talking about IAA (Indole-3-acetic acid) and NAA (Naphthalene acetic acid).

IAA provides for cell elongation and NAA provides for cell formation - two completely different functions. These auxins were identified over 70 years ago at Oxford University and eventually were isolated for use in rooting compounds sold to commercial nurseries. All rooting products sold at grow stores will have one or both of these hormones. Usually both.

It's in that manipulation of these auxins which is giving you the best results on new(er) plants perhaps. Increased root mass.

ASL (whatever the label) uses a cold alkaline extraction method vs. the hot alkaline method used by Maxicrop. Both use the same variety of kelp whereas KELPAK uses the South Atlantic Kelp variety. ASL claims that their method provides for much higher microbial activity in their products.

Where KELPAK has gained in commercial agricultural and horticultural fields is that it's a clear liquid completely free of any matter that could clog the sprayers (aerial and ground-based) and as you know better than 99.99999% of the folks on this venue, that's a huge consideration. It's also the one used by hydroponic 'nute' manufacturers because it's clear it doesn't interfere with their color schemes. Or any of their other schemes I'm guessing.

The reason that I strongly recommend ASL is that they're one of a handful of companies processing kelp extract for health supplements, i.e. human food-grade. Obviously the product that I use (same one that you bought) isn't the human stuff but in looking at videos of the processing plant in Nova Scotia it's obvious that this is one of the most advanced in the world.

Once cautionary note - you must keep the ASL products away from moisture because it definitely will clump making accurate measuring a PITA. I speak from personal experience.

HTH

CC

Yep - thus my use of KelPak early in veg as a root stimulant. I use a 2% soak at planting and a once more at 1% at transplant.

But for all-around use, in my fertigation and foliar, the plants seem to respond better to acadian. At least to my eyes.

 

[rupertb]

-

 

[vonforne]

I'm pretty sure I didn't make a mistake in my math unless it could be something like measuring peat dry vs hydrated or taking into account the lime and AZOMITE in the worm bin.

I got the 3 week seedlings out of the mix and they're starting to look better. The BB that survived in the mix has minor spotting and interveinal chlorosis. I'm not panicking about this plant, it would be nice to figure out what's the problem though. I'm guessing maybe too much CA or K from rock phos/azomite/lime or greensand/kelp/sul-po-mag.

you might be correct with the K although I have never seen that before. Nice recovery brother.

V

 

[rupertb]

-

 

[Suby]

I am not a whizz at plant diagnosis from past experiences but here goes my thoery.
First off I see from your mix you have dolomite AND sulpomag thus lots of magnesium.
Second I see interveinal chlorosis, my guess is calcium.
I see the stems are purpling early, my guess is potassium.
I am not saying you have a deficienty, with everything you have in there it's not really possible.
I am saying you have an imbalance, too much magnesium can outcompete for calcium and also have an effect on potassium, all these elements are cations (positively charged Ca++,Mg++,K+).
You also mentioned in the cannabis infirmary you use RO water, I have seen some cases where RO makes elements more readily available because it's lack of minerals makes less buffering thus swaying ph and causing lockout.
You'll notice the effect in smaller plants, as they get bigger it should subside.
Try mixing half RO with regular tap water and make sure not to overwater.
Use a compost tea in lieu of plain water, I always find CT helpfull.
I repeat, I suck at diagnosing plants that are not mine but this is my semi-educated armchair scientist GUESS.
The real brains of this forum can chime in and tell me I am rusty :

 

[louie]

When do you guys think it is safe to transplant some maybe 3 ish week old seedlings (maybe a little older not sure, they have three sets of leaves besides cotyledons about 8-9 inches tall and a good root system) from 16 oz beer cups with plain Lcs mix #2 to 1 gallon pots of lcs mix #2 plus Recipe #1 (blood, bone, kelp, greensand)? Lcs mix #2 with recipe #1 in it has been cooking for about a month.

 

[Suby]

If the beer cup is nice and full of roots then I would go for it.
Wait until the beer cup is close to needing watering (not dry but almost) then transplant them into the new mix which should be moist (don't water at transplant).
This will encourage the roots to seek out the moisture in the new soil and keep you from overwatering at an early stage.
This is the way I do it anyway, I am sure there are as many trasnplanting philosofy as there are growers.

 

[vonforne]

I am not a whizz at plant diagnosis from past experiences but here goes my thoery.
First off I see from your mix you have dolomite AND sulpomag thus lots of magnesium.
Second I see interveinal chlorosis, my guess is calcium.
I see the stems are purpling early, my guess is potassium.
I am not saying you have a deficienty, with everything you have in there it's not really possible.
I am saying you have an imbalance, too much magnesium can outcompete for calcium and also have an effect on potassium, all these elements are cations (positively charged Ca++,Mg++,K+).
You also mentioned in the cannabis infirmary you use RO water, I have seen some cases where RO makes elements more readily available because it's lack of minerals makes less buffering thus swaying ph and causing lockout.
You'll notice the effect in smaller plants, as they get bigger it should subside.
Try mixing half RO with regular tap water and make sure not to overwater.
Use a compost tea in lieu of plain water, I always find CT helpfull.
I repeat, I suck at diagnosing plants that are not mine but this is my semi-educated armchair scientist GUESS.
The real brains of this forum can chime in and tell me I am rusty :

If you did not understand what Subs said in that post read this.......

[SIZE=+1]Trading [SIZE=+2]+[/SIZE] for [SIZE=+2]+[/SIZE] [/SIZE]​

In the same way that acid rain can leach cations from the soil, plants and soil microorganisms more or less "leach" the cation nutrients from their exchange sites. These alkaline nutrients are only held on the surface with a weak, static electrical charge, i.e. they are "adsorbed". They are constantly oscillating and moving a bit, pulled and pushed this way and that by other charged particles (ions) in the soil solution around them. What the plant roots and soil microorganisms do is exude or give off Hydrogen ions, H+ ions, and if enough of these H+ ions are given off that some of them surround the nutrient cation and get closer to the negatively (-) charged exchange site than the nutrient is, the H+ ions will fill the exchange site, neutralize the (- ) charge, and the nutrient cation will be free of its static bond and can then be taken up by the plant or microorganism.

The way this works specifically with plant roots is that the plant roots expire or breathe out carbon dioxide into the soil. This carbon dioxide (CO 2 ) combines with water in the soil and forms carbonic acid, and the H+ Hydrogen ions from the carbonic acid are what replaces the cation nutrient on the exchange site. The Calcium ion that is held to the exchange site has a double-positive charge, written Ca++. When enough H+ ions surround it that some of them get closer to the exchange site than the Ca++ ion is, two H+ ions replace the Ca++ ion and the plant is free to take the Ca++ up as a nutrient. Simple as that.

Now we move on to how the CEC is measured, and then, what to do with that information once you have it.

Exchange capacity is measured in milligram equivalents, abbreviated ME or meq. A milligram is of course 1/1000th of a gram, and the milligram they are referring to is a milligram of H+ exchangeable Hydrogen. The comparison that is used is 1 milligram of H+ Hydrogen to 100 grams of soil. If all of the exchange sites on that 100 grams of soil could be filled by that 1 milligram of H+, then the soil would have a CEC of 1. One what? One ME, one meq, one milligram of Hydrogen.

Let me repeat that: 100 grams of a soil with a CEC of 1 could have all of its negative (-) exchange sites filled up or neutralized by 1/1000th of a gram of H+ exchangeable Hydrogen. If it had a CEC of 2, it would take 2 milligrams of Hydrogen H+, if its CEC was 120 it would take 120 milligrams of H+ to fill up all of the negative (-) exchange sites on 100 grams of soil.

The "equivalent" part of ME or meq means that other positively (+) charged ions could be substituted for the Hydrogen. If all of the sites were empty in that 100 grams of soil, and that soil had a CEC of 1, 20 milligrams of Calcium (Ca++), or 12 milligrams of Magnesium (Mg++), or 39 milligrams of Potassium (K+) would fill the same exchange sites as 1 milligram of Hydrogen H+.

Why the difference? Why does it take 20 times as much Calcium as Hydrogen? It's because Calcium has an atomic weight of 40, while Hydrogen, the lightest element, has an atomic weight of 1. One atom of Calcium weighs forty times as much as one atom of Hydrogen . Calcium also has a double positive charge, Ca++, Hydrogen a single charge, H+, so each Ca++ ion can fill two exchange sites . It only takes half as many Calcium ions to fill the (-) sites, but Calcium is 40 times as heavy as Hydrogen, so it takes 20 times as much Calcium by weight to neutralize those (-) charges, or 12 times as much Magnesium (Mg++, also a double charge), or 39 times as much Potassium, by weight . (Potassium's atomic weight is 39, and it has a single positive charge (K+), so it takes 39 times as much K+ to fill all the exchange sites, once again by weight . The amount of + charges, the amount of atoms of K+ or H+, is the same.)

and here is the link to the rest of the write up on Cation Exchange Capacity.

http://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm

V