ORGANIC VS INORGANIC. The great debate.

[Cannabologist]

Wait! this just in!

I have some HOLY WATER, Its organic, ALL NATURAL, and NO CHEMICALS whatsoever!

It's been blessed by only the holiest of holies over ALL the sacred sites (Medjugorje,etc)!

It WILL MAKE YOUR PLANTS GROW BETTER

It feeds the microbes! Its all organic! And frankly, your plants need it!

PM me for inquiries, only $100 per lb, bulk orders available, and IT WORKS! Or your money back!

 

[Rondon]

They can only form salts, not chelates or complexes. There's no advantage over purely inorganic salts such as nitrates (or the cheaper chlorides).
Depending on what you're trying to do/see/achieve, some organic salts such as mixed calcium lactate salts such as calcium lactate gluconate might be interesting mainly due to a comparatively high solubility with regard to other salts except said nitrates & chlorides (nothing or nearly nothing beats these two). Drawback is, gluconate/gluconic acid is a quite large molecule (still nothing compared to fulvic acid ) which means that Ca lactate gluconate (as hydrate) contains approximately 10% calcium whereas calcium nitrate (as hydrate) contains 17% and costs way over 10 times more than high quality Ca(NO3)2 or probably towards 100 times more than agricultural grade but reduces available N because it's microbial food whereas nitrate increases N. Now you can do the maths which of the two you'd sell if you were a fertiliser company. These mixed salts are mainly interesting in the beverage industry .[/QUOTE

I would argue high nitrate in sap guarantees spider mites and aphids. I would argue Cl > nitrate guarantees white flies. Hence my interest in amino or fatty acid for foliar. Fat has the advantage of 2x the energy

High nitrates doesn't guarantee a mite infestation but it certainly dangles a carrot. Also the warm glow of hps in a typical hot dry growroom....and the way the 2 spotted mite gets passed around from grower to grower through cuttings...its no wonder why mites thrive in a typical indoor cannabis growroom compared to the great outdoors. Ive never had a serious problem with Tetranychus Urticae outside. Its indoors with my warm dry lamps and high nitrogen fertilizers where they get out of hand very quickly. I regularly foliar spray every other week Mighty Wash and mix it up with Azadiractin. In between foliars of kelp/fulvic/aminos. Which Ive heard has some pest deterrent effects as well.

 

[Cannabologist]

I know people who use pesticides regularly but I STRONGLY advise against it... A good IPM plan uses pesticides only as a last resort (ie. when you have an outbreak and there are no other options... Which its usually the best option depending if its anything beyond fungus gnats, which generally persist because of overwatering)... Vacuum, strip what you can off thats bad, and cide em.

A good ipm plan for any room simply entails being kinda clean. That's really it. All those bugs and other bugs are just pooping on your plants, or not really doing much if you do have an outbreak. You can pretty much bring in pests from anywhere, or they'll just go for what they want, their food, which if your plants. Changing clothes or stripping and working nakie in a grow area I'm sure helps. And the ladies like it

A broad spectrum pesticide used according to the directions such as Azamax will take out an infestation of mites or other baddies, and should generally be as "strong" as anyone needs to go. Spinosad is more targeted to some other pests vs Aza which is very general.

If you get grey molds your environment is way off or your plants suck. If you get PM get rid of those plants you'll never get rid of it. Heh or keep it grow more plants select only the ones that never get it then get rid of everything else. Become a quote un quote "breeder". Pollen chuck those PM resistant plants. rofl

I advise against regular sprays of mighty wash, since this can simply lead to pest resistance over time if mites DO show up...


Rather, select for plants that are naturally resistant to pests> I know this isn't something easy to do, and if you have something nice, and it gets a pest, you're likely not going to throw it away.

 

[Rondon]

I use a mix up bi weekly of Mighty Wash and Azamax as my IPM. Preventative. I also throw in an occasional spray of Monterey (spinosad). Ive never had a mite resistance to Mighty Wash. It does contain pyrethrin but whatever else is in it (oils and fats) lets the mites have it. Havent had mites in a few. Of course being clean and a super clean room is number one. In between crops...bleach and water. And if ive had a mite outbreak i will light off a pyrethrum fogger grenade. Mited used to be a big problem for me. Super clean rooms...super healthy plants and bi- weekly foliars of the above. All part of my integrated pest management. Mites..thrips..aphids..gnats..all stay away. Yellow and blue sticky cards at pot level and canopy level as well to monitor. Run a tight ship with an IPM program...bugs should not come around.

 

[Weird]

hort grade mineral oil, predator mites, frass, crab shell, em-1 in flower / going into flower

I use neem meal/oil regalia occasionally in my veg but not on things going into flower

mycos in the root zone when transplanting and mycostop before replanting but after harvest and letting root mass decompose a bit (2 weeks)

 

[mushroombrew]

hort grade mineral oil, predator mites, frass, crab shell, em-1 in flower / going into flower

I use neem meal/oil regalia occasionally in my veg but not on things going into flower

mycos in the root zone when transplanting and mycostop before replanting but after harvest and letting root mass decompose a bit (2 weeks)

You ever tried Horsetail tea for PM? The skunkman mentioned it recently.

Thought you may have tried it? Use rates? Results?

Langbeinite is something I have not seen or used. And we got a "biologist" saying you have nothing to offer... Everybody has something of value if
you keep an open mind!

 

[Only Ornamental]

I would argue high nitrate in sap guarantees spider mites and aphids. I would argue Cl > nitrate guarantees white flies. Hence my interest in amino or fatty acid for foliar. Fat has the advantage of 2x the energy

Ah, I see.
Well, if you were to add calcium nitrate tetrahydrate (that's the common pharma quality, I'm not familiar with what exactly you guys get at whatever market you shop) at 850 ppm, then you'd have 140 ppm calcium and 100 ppm nitrogen. I wouldn't call that aphid too much N (spell "aphid too much" like "a bit too much" LoL).
Sure, I wouldn't use chloride either but depending on who and where, it is sometimes used.
Acetic acid isn't usually regarded as fatty acid... Can't remember if it already qualifies as short chained fatty acid or if it would need 2 or so more carbon atoms.
Anyway, I don't see why you want it for energy or from where the factor 2 comes from.
I wouldn't bother with those things but focus on assimilation or foliar penetration. The BIG advantage of nitrate and especially chloride salts of calcium and magnesium is that they all have a low deliquescence point. In other words, they become (or stay) liquid at quite low relative humidity (about 30-50%) which facilitates foliar assimilation. Calcium acetate, though highly hygroscopic, is "only" efflorescent... which means that it requires high relative humidity to "migrate". I don't know how well plant leaves will take a calcium acetate spray. BTW free acetic acid and some fatty acids are used as contact herbicides (ask google what it knows about pelargonic acid).
Calcium salts of longer chained carboxylic acids show a certain fat solubility which would be good for penetrating the leaf cuticle but they become increasingly less water soluble with increasing chain length (till they turn into soaps). One which is similar to the lactate but with somewhat better solubility in alcohols is HMB calcium.
The amino acid complexes might be advantageous here. Some are soluble in organic solvents. Unfortunately, those complexes are at best hygroscopic but not deliquescent ;( . You'd need a trick or a nearly magical mixture.
On the other, calcium is a macronutrient. Why do foliar sprays with it and not primarily fertigation/soil drench? Do you happen to frequently encounter Ca deficiencies or have troubles with calcium incompatibilities in your rez?

 

[jidoka]

Fair enough. I don't spell much of anything too well.

Edit...btw, thank you for the explanation.

 

[redlaser]

Is it lack of reading comprehension on the part of the readers??

Dickish ranting?? the guy lied saying he doesn't add chemicals, then in the same line is saying they are adding chemicals, and they don't understand anything about chemicals, molecules, atoms, science, or anything at all... they are a stupid dumb hippy telling you nonsense maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. oh my God are you serious??? You are serious. WOW... People are S T U P I D

Is it likely, brainwashing to think organic is best, and organic is magic(yes)

ORGANIC, is a MARKETING TERM.... I don't care about organic methods... If you read my posts, you'll see I've stated, derp, it "works", because derp, you are feeding plants nutrients, SLOW release nutrients... The best guys also take organic methods/practices/principles, and apply them to conventional growing, because, derp, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you add some organic substances too, like amino acids or other organic constituents like kelp products, if you know these will aid in growth and nutrient uptake??
These studies have been done for years now..

The "axe" as you so think it.. Is people BELIEVE they are doing something magic, or its all microbes, or they are rofl, feeding microbes, and they aren't. You're feeding your plants, and its that simple. CHEMICALS ARE CHEMICALS... ANYTHING ORGANIC YOU ADD IS CHEMICALS.... CHEMICALS ARE CHEMICALS DERRRRPP

WATER IS A CHEMICAL. IT IS NOT ORGANIC YOU BETTER NOT ADD IT TO PLANTS OR YOU ARE NOT GROWING ORGANICALLY, you are not using organic methodology, you are not being organic, PERIOD.

See? This debate IS OVER.


This isn't an axe, ITS CALLED WHAT IS REALTY, vs religious belief as it concerns horticulture.

Ugh..


This is why I need to hold your hands. You can lead horses to water, but you can't rehydrate the desiccated cells of dead horses after putting them in the water hoping the fountain of youth will actually work.

Crickets.

Dickish ranting is fitting.

With multiple side orders of condescending name calling.

Weakens/distracts from anything useful you may wish to make a point about.

Others may find it helpful though.

 

[brown_thumb]

If I was Slow, I'd edit the hell out of this thread. Some folks want to make everything a pissing contest. I continue to monitor this thread due to the endless useful posts but damn... all this arguing is distasteful and boorish.

 

[mushroombrew]

If I was Slow, I'd edit the hell out of this thread. Some folks want to make everything a pissing contest. I continue to monitor this thread due to the endless useful posts but damn... all this arguing is distasteful and boorish.

Tiresome is it not? I am doing a simple experiment with the intention of sharing results.

Many simply do not deserve the information at all.

The people who have contributed meaningful posts do. And it is obvious who is who.

Results will be available around Jan 15th. They will be shared via PM.

 

[Weird]

You ever tried Horsetail tea for PM? The skunkman mentioned it recently.

Thought you may have tried it? Use rates? Results?

Langbeinite is something I have not seen or used. And we got a "biologist" saying you have nothing to offer... Everybody has something of value if
you keep an open mind!

no but I have used neem meal tea as a foliar

I have found the horticultural mineral oil to have the best coverage and it has taken care of a number of heavy infestations only issue is it requires complete coverage 3 x in 9 days as it is not systemic

it does seem to kill eggs on contact as observed by loupe but I don't rely on it thus the 3 x application

 

[mushroombrew]

no but I have used neem meal tea as a foliar

I have found the horticultural mineral oil to have the best coverage and it has taken care of a number of heavy infestations only issue is it requires complete coverage 3 x in 9 days as it is not systemic

it does seem to kill eggs on contact as observed by loupe but I don't rely on it thus the 3 x application

Thanks. I have used neem in many forms. But not mineral oil.

Does the mineral oil affect the plants at all? Residues and such?

 

[Weird]

Thanks. I have used neem in many forms. But not mineral oil.

Does the mineral oil affect the plants at all? Residues and such?

it is allowed in washington states program

as far as residual I use 1.5 tbs per gallon and this works well and I have no residuals but I don't spray that close to harvest
​

 

[mushroombrew]

Thank you.

 

[Weird]

your welcome

 

[DocTim420]

...you guys are so sure about shit yet none of you understand teh context of what I say...

Exactly.

Most of us find it challenging to comprehend a string of grammatically incorrect words patched together in a series of "sentence fragments"--without any punctuation. It is not the fault of others for their failure to understand what you write, rather the problem is our ability to comprehend (understand) your incoherent writings. Gibberish reads exactly what it is...gibberish.

Many decades ago, a smart "wordsmith" told me something that went like this: Never use a "big word" when "small words" can be more efficient, while reserving "big words" for the occasions when "small words" are "ineffective". Said differently: Substituting "big words" for "small words" demonstrates nothing.

a strawman argument critiques the envelope the letter came in, the letter carrier and even little snippets of the letter out of context with the debate itself to cast the illusion that the message therefor is corrupt

I have been making the same arguments and every strawman troll, well known or otherwise has never been able to counter my experiential findings with their own unless it was a complete failure to get satisfactory results

I documented my findings and share them for free

I am one of the very few who shares knowledge without an agenda other then enlighten people about cultivation of cannabis as a medicine

none of what I share ends in the brand of weird I don't let anything I share on the internet resolve to a person or a company or a product or an ego for a reason

it is not about me it is about the plant

you use any excuse to attack me in light of this and the mods let it go on as a matter of working it out but it is why the site has lost so many contributors

what is the benefit to your action? you don't even know that is the saddest part

LOL, first you cry like a baby that "none of you understand teh context of what I say", and when I suggest it might have to do with your literacy skills (or lack thereof)...and then in classic "ad hominem" style, you respond that I was making a "straw man argument".

Let me help those who might be confused:

"Straw man argument" is when Person 1 claims X, and Person 2 argues Y (ignoring X).

"Ad hominem" is when Person 1 claims X, and Person 2 ignores X while attacking the character of Person 1.

 

[Weird]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".


see in this debate I have argued on topic and against the limited perspective of those who have an opinion about a methodology they don't have successful cropping experience in because I have experience cropping with all these methods and have formed an opinion through said experiences

you, cannabiologist, brown thumb, douglas.curtis have posted information outside of successful experience and try to back it up with science you don't understand

some of the smarter personalities with more to lose stop this little charade as soon as they realize that it outs them and the lack of true value they bring to the table

you guy, not so much

but keep attacking my character and making for some fine content

 

[Weird]

and I have plenty pics of so this wont get tiring for me

los resin

 

[brown_thumb]

Folks, if we can't all be civil and nonaccusatory then we shouldn't post until we're calm and sober. What many people don't understand is this constant bickering is very off-putting. I've been guilty of this too but I learned to not post if I'm fuzzy-minded, in a lousy mood, or drink too much.

Sorry, mushroombrew but I'm on the verge of deleting this subscription because the negative banter and insults are irritating... which largely negates all the terrific information in this thread. I'm sure I'm not the only visitor who will visit this excellent thread lesser and lesser due to visitors (as wise, practiced and helpful as they are) who constantly bitch at each other until everyone's ears are bleeding.