New Organic Nutrients from General Hydroponics

[Carl Carlson]

I just realized that General Organics BioMarine is a facsimile of Neptune's Harvest BENEFITS OF FISH/SEAWEED.

BioMarine®
cold processed fish

BioMarine is a completely organic fish fertilizer that encourages rapid growth, improves color, and helps increase plant’s resistance to pests. Essential proteins, oils, and nutrients are derived from a cold processed enzymatically digested fish. This supports healthy growth and stimulates microbiology that naturally improves soil integrity. BioMarine benefits all types of plants during all phases of growth, from seedling through harvest. It can be used as a standalone fertilizer or in conjunction with other fertilizers.

Neptune's Harvest...
Cold processed
Neptune's Harvest is cold processed all the way from start to finish. The fish is converted through the grinding process and by the naturally occurring enzymes that continually break down the fish into a liquid. These enzymes are still alive in our final product as well, so they are there to keep your soil alive. We then screen it to take out any remaining bone particles. Nothing else is removed from the product, and the only thing added is phosphoric acid to stabilize. It is more expensive than sulfuric or formic acid, but it is safer to use for our employees and yours and is something the plant needs anyway. This is why our phosphorus is higher than fish emulsions, on the analysis.

 

[onegreenday]

I noticed the General Organics is a lot thinner than
the BioBizz fish emulsion, if you want to compare.
Biobizz is 2-3X thicker.....

 

[mgjscdhl]

I've just started using these peticular nutrients on a white rhino cutting.
So far the plants are ok but will update when things progress.
I certainly hope they work well by themselves. I didn't get the additives. Wanted to work out my first grow with basics and later I might see if there are benefits. Is the CalMag+ something I should get though? that seemed to be something everybody liked on this thread

 

[Thundurkel]

I've got the sample pack on the way said I'm getting everything but Diamond Black and they are Quart bottles!! That's pretty awesome, I'm really interested in the Bio Bud and how it will work with Flora Nova..

 

[*mistress*]

Nutrient solution pH has litle to no affect on substrate pH.

?

yes, solution ph does affect substrate ph...

the roots exchange ions w/ the solution & the substrate.
which ions exchanged affect the ph of the substrate & thus the remaining film of solution on the collidial particles of media... roots exchange ions for ions, specific ions released back into the media & solution alter the ph of the media surfaces, where roots assimilate nutrients as a thin film of solution, on the particles of the media.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3380789&postcount=23

The pH of the environment will affect the form of the phosphate’s availability and will limit the ultimate availability of the desired monovalent form H2PO4- at normal pH ranges between 5.2 and 7.2 by converting the phosphates into the unusable form H3PO4 or the less desired divalent form HPO42-.

The phosphates will bind other available elements as well as to substrate particles and become unavailable to the plant even though they’re still showing in the system. So fertilizers must be designed not only to provide the right ratios of elements in the right amounts, but also for a dynamic environment of temperature and pH fluctuations and across different substrates.


The pH of the soil solution will affect available phosphorus as will temperature and overall concentrations of other elements such as potassium, a synergistic effect which is a ratio issue as well. The grower has to be aware of all these variables in designing a fertility program for their crop. Most nutrient lines are designed with the line in mind: in other words, the ratio, composition, source, and application rate of each component product adds to the final ratio of every nutrient that would be required by the plant.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3132801&postcount=145

pH
Optimum pH of a container medium differs with plant species but generally a pH between 5.0 and 6.5 is desirable. The pH has a major role in the availability of nutrient ions. In production systems where nutrients are added frequently in forms that are normally absorbed by the plant, the suitable pH range may be much wider than research with field soils would indicate. A pH above 7.5 usually results in chemical binding of micronutrients and a pH below 4.0 could result in toxic concentrations of ions such as aluminum, zinc, or copper. Field soils are limed to maintain the pH above 5.0 or 5.5 to reduce the possibility of such toxicities. However, the level of aluminum in soilless container media is generally too low to cause problems and a pH below 5.0 can be tolerated by many ornamental plants.
Generally, growers should mix the components together in the ratio that yields the desired physical properties, then determine the pH. Amendments to adjust pH such as dolomitic limestone should be added at the suggested rate to small quantities of the medium and allowed to incubate in moist, aerated conditions for a few days before the effect of the amendment is determined.

The pH of some components will change over time. Typically the pH of a pine bark based medium will decrease during the production cycle. However, irrigation with alkaline water can more than offset this tendency. The growth medium pH should be monitored regularly to allow for adjustments. Elemental sulfur, acid-producing fertilizers and dilute acids can be used to decrease pH. Liming material can be applied to increase pH but a change in pH from application of liming materials to the surface of a container medium is generally slow because the effect tends to be concentrated in the upper strata of the medium. For best results, amendments which are slowly soluble and slowest to adjust pH are best incorporated at the time of media preparation.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3132632&postcount=144

Another important parameter is the pH of the solution flowing through the medium, which can affect the availability of microelements and phosphate to plants.
One of the advantages of soilless culture is the ability to control pH in the medium solution. This is achieved by adding acid to the irrigation water to change the ratio between NH4+ and NO3-, which are the only two forms of nitrogen allowed in this cultivation method. It is a common phenomenon that while passing through the root system, the pH will drop slightly due to root respiration and lack of buffer capacity in the soilless medium.

&
Cation Exchange Capacity in Coco
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2594395&postcount=3
in part:

plants 'exchange' ions for ions during uptake. for every 1 potassium (k+) or ammonium (nh4+) ion absorbed, 1 hydrogen (h+) ion is released into media+nutrient solution. this is fundamentals of cations exchange... for every 1 calcium (ca++) or 1 magnesium (mg++) ion absorbed, the root releases 2 hydrogen (h+) ions.

thus, absorbtion of cation makes ph decrease, or become more acidic. why ph decreases as ammonium nitrgen 'n' is used by plant. (recalling that ph is measured via # of h+ ions in solution...). also, as plant absorbs nitrates and phosphates, more hydroxyl (0h-) and bicarbonates (hc03-) [recall baking soda to raise ph...]. why ph increases when nitrate nitrogen 'n' used by plants.

acids have excess (h+) hydrogen cations. immediately released in solution and seek negative charges strongly.

that 1 post on gh blog maybe incorrect... maybe not fully explained... maybe required further tech detail on how solution ph does not affect substrate ph...???

curious how this happen (or, not happen), when plants must exchange ions to assimilate them - directly effecting subsequent substrate ph... as different ions in solution alter the solution & substrate ph, either limiting or making nutrients available...

whatever media/method used to grow plants, the roots exchange ions for other ions.
which ions are exchange directly effects the ph of the substrate & the resulting solution.

I've got the sample pack on the way said I'm getting everything but Diamond Black and they are Quart bottles!! That's pretty awesome, I'm really interested in the Bio Bud and how it will work with Flora Nova..

they work well w/ flora n0va... & maxi series.

entire line not really required.
bio roots full strength (clones).
the fish very smelly, & remain smelly.
the kelp ok, but not required every feed.

if use all bottles & chart, lots to mix...
bottles easily spill the non-thick liquid, too. syringe = , to prevent spillage.
also, note that the caps of the containers have small hole in them...

very low ec/ppm w/ full strength...
plantys seem to like the 1/2-1 tsp fnb/maxibloom w/ the biothrive line...
can really reduce to just biothrive bloom & fnb...
maybe @ 2 tsp/gal biothrive & 1tsp/gal fnb...

though cal-nit & bio thrive bloom give very result... as the biothrive dont have any calcium in it (as is standard in most greenhouse ferts, as cal has bad reaction w/ other elements). if no ca-nit, the camg+ work ok, though seemed to make ph too high... @ least for *mistress*, which prefer 5.0-5.5 input ph...

hope this helps.

enjoy your garden!

 

[toasted1]

just wanted to say i like the products ive completed a grow with the sample pac from cut 3 weeks veg and 11 weeks flower in a 5 gallon bucket of old flushed out FFOF with some perlite and am VERY satisfide with my nugz
i used all but the marine and diamond back and didnt mess with ph or even let the tap water sit out for 24 hrs i just filled the jug mixed the nutes and waterd and the grow went flawless as far as i could tell then again ive never ran any other organic line


i will b buyn more cuz im about to run out


stay safe
1

 

[Carl Carlson]

One of the advantages of soilless culture is the ability to control pH in the medium solution.

If you think this relates to coco or peat container grows, than you are wrong. I wasn't talking about a true hydro grow.

It's not good that "soilless" and "hydroponics" are always jammed together in terms of wording and concepts, because they're not always the same thing. It clearly makes for a lot of confusion...

Water pH alone has very little impact on coco grow pH

HTH

 

[Zealious]

growing plants, not micro-organisms...

ph 5.8-6.2 seems best for plants... the gh bio thrive line generally adjust ph to 6.3-6.5... fnb goes to ~6.0 ph...

in either case, unless there is scope used to actually count & mng 'micro organisms', no way to prove/disprove their value...

can go entire season w/ absolutely no concern over myco/microbes & harvest perfectly healthy plants... no gardener harvests the micro-organisms, nor cares about them after harvest...

have found that there is no reason to have concern over them during season... the ferts feeds the plants, via cation exchange... plants absorb & process ions - not micro-organisms...

also, there are many, many, many types of micro-organisms, that survine & thrive under different conditions. hard to blanket prove that certain ph destroys them all... & if did occur, acquired nutes to directly feed plant... by-passing micros altogether...

enjoy your garden!

Never heard a old time gardener say that you are feeding the soil... not the plant.

Its all about the rhizosphere.

There is a rediscovery of old style growing going on.. all about boositing up the micro beasts.. I mean if you think about it the micros are able to breakdown elements and make them more available for the plant... thats why you wouldnt need to adjust the ph..

NOrmaly the plants roots would have to do all the work of breaking down heavy minerals into the availible form for the plant.. it takes a lot of work from the roots them selves.. thats why u need to maintain a nice ph for chemicle reactions to take place in the rootzone

this is how a hyper rhizoshpere works for a plant... u create a micro friendly zone. NO ACIDS. then you keep them happy.. and in high numbers.. no chlorine, no chemicles, no chloramines..

In return..the bio life will do all the work of the roots breaking down the minerals into an available form for the plant.. thus the symbiaotic relationship.. and the major advantage of this is that in time the roots adjust to this new enviroment and the roots become what they call lazy and the plant is able to save a lot of its root energy and place it some where else.

but please note im no expert.. but I have been reading a lot on this subject lately.. it makes sense to me.. if the biolife is doing what the roots normaly do.. then ph does not matter to the roots... all its elements are made avail by the microlife.. so the ph of the micro life is more important..

 

[Zealious]

SO i have run the GO line for a while now..

Im pretty happy..

havent quite figured it out. Im getting a lot of yellow.. here and there but we will figure it out..

Ive used alaska fish before and I can say the GO fish is amazing. Its a much lighter solution and does not smell too bad.. I actualy dont mind using it in small doses..

I seem to get better results from the fish during veg then grow by its self..

at first I was feeding every watering on the low side of the the dose because i thought with organics you can not over feed..

Im not sure aobut this.. Ive been doing every other watering and plants seem happier.. i think that even tho these are organic based formulas.. its not the same as a handful of earthworm castins or pultry manure where the plant can get what it uses... seems like this fomula is almost designed like a propitiatory chemical blend meaning they sourced organic elements to fomulate a ballanced N-P-K.. meaning there is potential for lockouts.. and probly has a lot to do with why its a 7 part and not a 1 part nutrient.

I personaly spoke with GH and they say that ORganic hydro is impossible at this stage.. Its just insanely unstable.. Drain to waste would work. and hand watering soiless mix would work but ur normal hydro system would be very unstable and it would be a waste..

as im sure they have studied this... so i trust them.

Now i want to get some opinions about the black forest stuff...

does anyone know if it is guranteed to contain micro life that is reanimated when added to soil? I mean it doesnt make sense to me..

it sounds like its just a bottled compost tea which after 48 hours all the micro life would be dead.

it probly is good for its "humic acid" tho..

anythoughts?

 

[Zealious]

I would like to add a little more..

I was using this line on about 6 dif strains.. the ones that did the most yellowing, some times brown spots showing P problems and some times just straight N def looking.. burnt curled up tips but not burn edges..

naturaly there was a great variance on how the plants took to the nutrients.. I have a couple heavy feeding plants and they showed the least nutrient problems... while my very light feeding plants showed most of the signs..

Im still trying to decide if it was a over nute or under nute problem.. but i think it was a over nute problem...

 

[Carl Carlson]

Zealious, do you have an EC or PPM meter and use it with the GO line?

I have found the CaMg+ to be incredibly rich and am wondering if others have found the same. I tried e-mailing GH but they never responded.

1/2 ml per gallon = .1 EC from a quart bottle purchased a couple of months ago.

 

[Thundurkel]

I'm hopefully getting my sample pack today, if you are talking about Diamond Black with the tree's on the bottle that is just the organic version of Diamond Nectar

 

[*mistress*]

One of the advantages of soilless culture is the ability to control pH in the medium solution.

If you think this relates to coco or peat container grows, than you are wrong. I wasn't talking about a true hydro grow.

It's not good that "soilless" and "hydroponics" are always jammed together in terms of wording and concepts, because they're not always the same thing. It clearly makes for a lot of confusion...

Water pH alone has very little impact on coco grow pH

HTH

yes, water ph does impact coco...
along w/ nutrient solution ph...
& ph of the specific coco...

may be that there are several sub-topics @ issue.

1. initial water ph
2. initial nutrient solution ph
3. media ph
4. effect of water alkalinity (bicarbonates).
5. effect of input nutrient solution on media ph.
6. accurately measuring the effects of the above.
7. determining which variable requires adjustment for optimum plant health.

The importance of substrate pH control was outlined
previously. Fertilizers applied to bedding plants may either
raise or lower the pH. Postplant pH can be controlled to a
certain degree through fertilizer selection. Fertilizers
with potential acidity will lower substrate pH while fertilizers
with potential basicity will raise the substrate pH.

One factor in selecting a fertilizer should be pH regulation.
Another factor in selecting a fertilizer should be the ammonium and nitrate content. Ammoniacal nitrogen stimulated greater leaf expansion and internode elongation than
nitrate nitrogen. However, too high a percentage of ammoniacal nitrogen (greater than 40%) can lead to ammonium toxicity problems and should be avoided.

Acid fertilizers tend to contain higher amounts of ammoniacal nitrogen while alkaline fertilizers contain a high
proportion of nitrate nitrogen. This means that if you wish to use a high nitrate fertilizer for compact growth, the substrate pH may rise over time and if you use a high proportion ammoniacal nitrogen fertilizer, the substrate pH will drop.

The pH directly affects the availability of many plant nutrients, especially micronutrients.

how fertilizer ratios/proprtions/types, all affect substrate ph & which nutrients are available to plant.

while selecting quality water is important, once the water source is made, then fertilizer selection & application directly effect substrate ph - whether the substrate be coco, peat, perlite, or 100% water in dwc...
has nothing to do w/ soil, soilless, or hydroponics, but how/which nutrients are available to the plant - or not. & @ different stages of maturity, for more this/that nute availbility

Never heard a old time gardener say that you are feeding the soil... not the plant.

Its all about the rhizosphere.

There is a rediscovery of old style growing going on.. all about boositing up the micro beasts.. I mean if you think about it the micros are able to breakdown elements and make them more available for the plant... thats why you wouldnt need to adjust the ph..

?

plants assimilate inorganic ions. that is how they use elements to make & store simple sugars (food for the plant), during photosynthesis...

water-soluble nutrients do not require microbes to 'breakdown' elements.
there is nothing to be broken down... hydroponic nutrients are available & provide all of the essential macro & micro elements that plants need to survive... no need for microbes to do anything...
but, they will be there anyway, whether gardener adds them or not... just like bacteria/germ is everywhere, whether human/animal sense it or not...

adding microbes does not 'make them more avialable for the plant'... the elements are already avaialble, @ their maximum potential for absorption - as long as the ph for those specific elements is in range...5.0-6.2, generally...

NOrmaly the plants roots would have to do all the work of breaking down heavy minerals into the availible form for the plant.. it takes a lot of work from the roots them selves.. thats why u need to maintain a nice ph for chemicle reactions to take place in the rootzone

?

roots do not 'break down minerals'... roots merely perform the process of osmosis, & permit the plant to exchange cations & anions w/ the media (collidial surfaces) &/or nutrient solution...

this is how a hyper rhizoshpere works for a plant... u create a micro friendly zone. NO ACIDS. then you keep them happy.. and in high numbers.. no chlorine, no chemicles, no chloramines..

In return..the bio life will do all the work of the roots breaking down the minerals into an available form for the plant.. thus the symbiaotic relationship.. and the major advantage of this is that in time the roots adjust to this new enviroment and the roots become what they call lazy and the plant is able to save a lot of its root energy and place it some where else.

but please note im no expert.. but I have been reading a lot on this subject lately.. it makes sense to me.. if the biolife is doing what the roots normaly do.. then ph does not matter to the roots... all its elements are made avail by the microlife.. so the ph of the micro life is more important..

roots do not break down minerals...

there is no mineral to 'break down', if the mineral is supplied in a water-soluble (or chelated) form, in ph range 5.0-6.2, & water is present.

microbes eat each other... the waste they expel is available to plants. some also eat metals, organic matter, etc... but none of them are necessary for plant life to thrive. the primary elements required for plant survival are ~17-20...

microbes are not among the essential elements of plants life.

plants can & will grow healthy w/out any concern @ all for the any micro-life in the media - if all the nutrients are supplied in full-strength nutrient solution.

'micro-life' (bacteria, fungi, nematodes, amoeba, etc, etc) can break down organic matter & eat ea other to provide basic elements to the plant - w/ no chemical fertilizers used....
...however, the element is still in in-organic form when it is absorbed into the plant - after the 'micro-life' has 'broken [it] down' into an in-organic state.

maybe...select the gardening style that fits the gardeners' desires...
whether that be aeroponic, nft, soilles mix...or, 100% organic.

all work!

enjoy your garden!

 

[ThaLonelyStoner]

Thanks for all the info in this thread I just called GH to talk about this line. They were really helpful, answered all my questions without a lot of umms and well. To me that means they really know their product. I asked about samples and they said the sample program got a little out of hand. But they willing to send samples to my local Brew & Grow and I can pick them up next week.

I really like good customer service and will reward it with my loyalty as long as the product stands up. So far my first impressions of GH is a very good one.

 

[Zealious]

Thunder- Yes sir dimond black.. I apologize.. so its supposed to be a humic acid source rather than a microbial source.. ur getting all the enzymes left behind from the composting method?

carl- yes Ive noticed high readings with my tds meter.. esp for organics... I start off with water thats about 80ppm half 120ppm tap half 6ppm ro. ph of 7.. after mixing the normal 3week veg doseage Im at about 400ppm and ph of 6.2-6.4
I keep my ph meter on while i add in each nute and I noticed most of the nutes slowly drive the ph down... however dimond black raises the ph by like .5-1


True organics would not register on a meter.. thats why this is not exactly a tru organic method.. in a bottle.. its a complete nutrient derived by organic sources instead of heavy metal sources..

but this is what makes it so versitile ..

Right mistress nicely spelled out for me I apreciate the info...

Like you say in the end.. With this line you have to chosse to go a soiless nutrient regimine or go full organic and simply boost ur soil life without hurting ur microb life...

I like the line I just need more pratice with it.

 

[Thundurkel]

I'm curious how it holds up to Flora Nova really, I got my samples today!!! Got the WHOLE line even though they said I wouldn't be getting Diamond Black but I did! So I mixed up a batch following the chart for seedlings and didn't adjust ph and I gotta say it was perfect when I checked it via drop test kit gave me that piss yellow color I wanted! Also checked the ppm's and my tap water is 157ppm and the seedling mix came out to 537ppm which is around what my other nutrient lines seedling mix came out to so far so good.

My one buddy that's a Flora Nova user thinks 10ml of this new Bio Bloom is a lot but the way it looks is it balances out to the same in price? maybe? almost? I mean it is half the price per qt give or take a dollar or two. Also the NPK is half that of Flora Nova pretty much and you use 2x as much as you would FN so makes sense to me what do you all think?

 

[Thundurkel]

You guys think it would be safe to switch to these nutes right now during veg? I've been feeding them FloraNova Grow at 5ml per gal and 1ml of Floralicious Plus and I'm in a coco perlite mix ...

 

[Zealious]

I have no experince with flora nova.. this is my first GH product.. Ive always used fox farm.

with that said.. urk i think u should switch right now... give it about 5-7 days and see what happens.. Maybe flush one week and then start on the GO line... It would be nice to see how it compares to Flora series.

It is cheaper than flora and as far as im concerned u will end up with a much healthier product in the end... I dont think there are too much heavy metals in flora series but I would trust organic sources better..

Thunder if ur simply trying to replace ur typical nutrient feeding program with a healthier organic one.. this product is for you and you will save some money. I would follow their entire chart.. but err on the soft side of things... Maybe use 5ml instead of 10ml.. Because this isnt just add as much as you want organics this is more like a reg nutrient.. And i was having some nutrient issues.. mostly a p problem..

I did start using some high p bat guano and that seemd to help.. so u might want to use that..

This next run Im thinking of trying to go full blown just add water organics... I will use the GO line as an enhancer.. to my compost teas.. then I will probly just use the kelp, and fish . My favorite product in the line is the calmag... that will be helpful.

I have been comparing the GO line fedding chart with the biobizz feeding chart.. I belive both products to be similar.

 

[Carl Carlson]

*Mistress*

the point that I'm trying to make here is that if the alkalinity (buffering capacity) of the water supply is zero (R.O or distilled) or low (some tap water sources) than the pH of that water (with nutes in it or not) will quickly change to the pH of the media, not the other way around.

5. effect of input nutrient solution on media ph.
6. accurately measuring the effects of the above

 

[*mistress*]

My one buddy that's a Flora Nova user thinks 10ml of this new Bio Bloom is a lot but the way it looks is it balances out to the same in price? maybe? almost? I mean it is half the price per qt give or take a dollar or two. Also the NPK is half that of Flora Nova pretty much and you use 2x as much as you would FN so makes sense to me what do you all think?

You guys think it would be safe to switch to these nutes right now during veg? I've been feeding them FloraNova Grow at 5ml per gal and 1ml of Floralicious Plus and I'm in a coco perlite mix ...

the biothrive line does not give that much ec/ppm, even w/ full strength... maybe gets to ~700ppm/1.0 ec (nutr@wand).

will require lot more biothrive to reach same amount of fn...since only using 5ml (1 tsp) of fnb (low ec), should balance out ~ the same...

yes, it is safe to switch to the biothrive line. they are compatible & work well together...
just, maybe, make sure to include the camg+, as neither includes calcium.
nutrient profile may be less than fn gives.
not as k.i.s.s. as just fn line.