we got a product in the uk that has paclo like effects derived from seaweed, called Rocksoff, but its not paclo based
we got a product in the uk that has paclo like effects derived from seaweed, called Rocksoff, but its not paclo based
BubbaBear I've had a lot to do with the CDFA and the ODA - I was the guy that set off the alarm bells re PBZ and Alar containing products through writing some material on them. Long story short the CDFA contacted me and I pointed them in the right direction re what products to test and what to test for. This said, safe to say that the Paclo products are still very much available in Ca and Oregon. In fact, speaking to the Werc Shop the other day I was informed that 15% of the med they test tests positive for pesticides. Of this 15%, 50% is PBZ. L t me also correct a few things you've said. Firstly, about 50% of the organic pesticides and/or fungicides they tested in Europe were found to be carcinogenic and subsequently banned - so let's not assume that because something is organic it is safe. Secondly, Phosphoload, Flower Dragon and all the other chem PGR products that were yanked from the Ca and Oregon markets were all registered with the CDFA and ODA. It is a simple case of not declaring what is in these products and instead wanking on about humatic isolates, kelp extracts etc. The other thing is, that even if the CDFA and ODA do run PGR tests they can easily miss the chemical PGR if it is not tested for. For example, during the Flower Dragon and Phosphoload fiasco when Bushmaster etc got pulled they only tested for 9 chemical PGRS when there are actually over a 100. Bottom line it is as easy as hell to pass off a chemical PGR containing product and fly it under the radar because there are numerous PGRs that aren't being tested for. So for instance, there are a couple of very popular bloom boosters out there that contain PGRs and they came up clean during the CDFA sweep. What it really comes down to is that any product that changes the natural physiological processes (growth) of a plant is a PGR. It is a case of whether that PGR poses a health risk to the end user (organic or inorganic it doesn't really matter because organics can be every bit as toxic if not more so than synthetic chemicals). Mate, I'm a very experienced nutrient formulator with a very good handle on chemistry and molec bio and having looked at numerous kelp products from around the globe and having trialled these products none of them act anything like PBZ.
Re this: "Fortified with Norwegian kelp extract, which supplies organic carbon, amino acids and carbohydrates for use on most flowering plants, hydroponic plants, indoor, outdoor, or field-grown plant. Avalanche is a refined seaweed extract, yet, instead of additional synthetic, carcinogenic hormones, Avalanche purposely contains a small amount of a phosphorus compound."
Sounds familiar.
And none of these compounds/molecules would act like a PGR. BTW - what's the phosphorus compound? I mean all of this sounds impressive to the uninformed but to me it sounds all too familiar.
I know the manufacturer smart ass
Bottom line - no kelp acts like PBZ. If you want to justify using chem PGRs at least try not to sound like a pleb.
Awww man, you burst my bubble I wanted to believe in magic kelp lol. I hear you man theres all of these magical boosters and no one wants to say whats really in them and they all have some convincing mumbo jumbo b.s. sales pitch about the kreb cycle or humates or magical plant extracts. Id like to think a large company like Grow More would be upfront about chemicals like that and just take the route GH took with Bush Load and be upfront about whats in it and have it labeled for ornamentals but I could be totally wrong.
The phosphorus compound there talking about in avalanche is phosphoric acid its on the list of ingredients. You seem pretty educated on the subject, I know there are some naturally sourced and safe PGRs out there like triacontanol, what other PGRs are there that are safe?
G`day Glow
I `ve read an article by you talking about using kelp extracts with Cytokinins and Gibberellins to manipulate growth .
Can you explain the difference ?
Thanks for sharin
EB .
Wouldn't be surprised if you were the manufacturer smart ass Yeah I know loads of manufacturers - funny though pal, they tend not to give up their trade secrets. Bottom line - no kelp acts like PBZ. If you want to justify using chem PGRs at least try not to sound like a pleb.
dont be a prick - I do not use chem PGR's.
Its not kelp, it s a mirror image of a gene that acts like pac found in seaweed.
And Im not the manufacturer -Evoponics is
Just read it and what its talking about is auxins and cytokinins (not GA) at bottom of page 2 and again at top of page 3. You've also somewhat misinterpreted the data. What I'm largely discussing there is the ability of cytokinins to reduce stretch and enhance cell division. Auxins on the other hand while fantastic for root stimulation can cause apical dominance particularly when used s=during the stretch cycle at even low levesl. Again though even synthetic cytokinins such as 6-BAP act completely differently from PBZ and no kelp possesses anywhere near enough cytokinin to act as PGRs. In fact you look at the analysis of a kelp on page 3 you'll see that the bulk of it is organic matter (e.g. carbon) then nutrients and then amino acids which while beneficial particularly to plants under stress don't act as PGRs. I think you've misinterpreted what I am saying which is common when people analyze research (I have done this many times myself because all factors need to be looked at and sometimes you miss things). Basically though your initial question was:
" I `ve read an article by you talking about using kelp extracts with Cytokinins and Gibberellins to manipulate growth .
Can you explain the difference ?
Thanks for sharin
EB ."
so no I've never written an article about using kelp extracts with Cytokinins and Gibberellins to manipulate growth. I have written about the benefits of kelp as biostimulants (not PGRs) and about how auxins and cytokinins work in plants. Hope that clears things up.
Hey glow, sorry quoted this post (on a tablet) couldn't find the exact one back a page or two. So basically in your opinion then naturally occurring paclo is a myth? For many years I have always heard it was present in kelp but most companies refined it from a fungicide used in aus and the uk. From my understanding it so some kind of triaz ring thing where they separate out one part but it basically still is as dangerous as the fungicide itself'. No joke for years (like maybe 10) I have been hearing about kelp, particularly this non Norwegian kelp that is super high in it. So in your opinion that is just a fallacy and PBz does not occur in nature?
While I'm at it, Tria from bees wax, fact or myth?
G`day Glow
Much appreciated you taking the time to spell it out .
I have read that site extensively . And found some of the best written and communicated techs any where on the net .
The do`s and don`t are all spelt out .On your site .
Hurry up and get yourself 50 posts I have more questions I don`t want to derail this thread with . lol .
Thanks for sharin
EB .
Interesting, will be curious to see how it turns out. It looks like I either misquoted the hydro store guy, or maybe he just wasn't up to speed on it. Any thoughts on a copper based late flower hardener?Hey there theother, I expect myth but haven't run the numbers or been given anything credible from anyone on this thread. Nor is there a single piece of research to support that a natural form of PBZ exists in kelps (none that I have ever seen and I am continually researching actives for various projects I'm involved in). I've handed it over to a PhD biochemist pal of mine who's looking into it. His initial comment was that such a claim was "ludicrous" (actually a molec bio friend also added that "wow drugs are bad" - he has a sense of humor so don't be offended but I've asked him to run the numbers.
Tria is typically found in plant waxes. Plants such as alfalfa. I've never heard of it coming from bees wax but then I've never looked at this and it is feasible but why worry when we know Tria comes from alfalfa? No there is no kelp that is high in PBZ or anything similar at a molecular level. For myself I see this as round 3. Keep in mind that there is a lot of history here with PGR pedlars and denialists who scream foul when you point out the obvious. This mess dates back to 2003 when I and others exposed Superbud (aka Superdud) on OverGrow and Natures High (now both defunct sites) and other forums. Either way I have linked the CDFA to this thread and I expect they'll be looking into it (in fact, I'll be following up on this myself). I've also had a UK colleague buy a bottle of this wonder kelp (I wonder what's in it?) Sativa Breather talks of and we'll be lab testing it in the next few weeks. Tip is learn to grow properly - invest in blended spectrum lighting, optimize your environment and nutrition and you'll get maximum yields (above and beyond anything PBZ can provide) . For now - chemical PGRs are for losers (no nothing half wits) who have no right to be producing med. What is worse is that while it should be obvious that a product contains potentially harmful PGRs people choose to deny it because they're too slack or too incompetent to do things ethically. Cheers
Grow More Mendo Avalanche is not Palco...it is a different type of tech being Copper based
Grow More has homeland security dropping in on them randomly to check on their supply of ammonium nitrates ... They play by the rules and don't mislabel anything...
All Palco based products suck anyways