jack mehaulf
Member
Should I get a water chiller if I do a multifeed? Auto feed set up? Sometimes my res gets alittle warm 75 80 degrees on a hot day maybe more
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NEED COCO MASTER ADVICE PLEASE PH PROBLEM
- Thread starter jack mehaulf
- Start date
jack mehaulf
Member
What kind of water set up do you have jake?
Dready_jake
Member
Simple looped half inch with open spaghetti lines with a t in the end at each plant. A 400 gph pump that kicks on for 1 min every few hours. The excess drains right back into the Rez under the table. So its a rather uncommon recirculating coco set up. If I wanted to I could put regulators and drop it down to no runoff and keeping it wet but for some reason I like the idea of recirculating the runoff
jack mehaulf
Member
I like that idea too, but don't u run into problems recircationg the dirt salty run off?
I think if I made a system it would be multi feed DTW my tent is on a raised and graded platform and my plants sit in a big flood tray with a hole on one side so the run off flows down to the holend because it is graded, and into a catch under my platform, and from there I pump it into a drain
I think if I made a system it would be multi feed DTW my tent is on a raised and graded platform and my plants sit in a big flood tray with a hole on one side so the run off flows down to the holend because it is graded, and into a catch under my platform, and from there I pump it into a drain
jack mehaulf
Member
So if I did a auto set up I think I would water for about 30 seconds each abut 3 times a day I think that will keep it wet and fresh with minimal run off?
Do you guys run your multifeed with low nute strength?
Do you guys run your multifeed with low nute strength?
I am not a specialist in coco growing, however I have a lot of plants growing in pure coco right now, and they're doing great, so here goes.
* Many brands of coco (Canna, B'Cuzz) can be used out of the bag, however it never hurts to hydrate and flush the coco first, wither with a low nutrient solution, or specific flushing agents like Canna Flush. Bricks and other sources of coco should be flushed just to make sure.
* When you're a beginner, it is best to start with nutes that are specific to growing in coco, and the line of the producer of the coco (Canna, Plagron, Biobizz) are the nutrients to start out with. That just takes a lot of variables and headaches out of the picture.
* Before you plant seeds, load up the coco with 0.6 EC of nutrient solution plus the EC of the water itself. So if for example your water is 0.6 EC, start with a total of 1.2 EC. However...
* I like to top up the EC by 0.2 or 0.3 EC (to a total of 1.5 EC), with a high PK flower hardening nutrients (I use those from start to finish), because a) cannabis has a very high tolerance level for P and K, not for Nitrogen, b) P/K help with rooting, and prevent P/K deficiencies when the plant switches to flower, and c) any issues with extra use of P/K in coco or indoors/dry air are taken care of. This complete prevents the purpling of stems (unless you have low temps that prevent p/k takeup). Add root stimulator, so the P/K are taken up even more quickly and build up in the medium even less.
* When you use filtered water, you should always add Cal/Mag drops (I use about 6-8 to a quart or liter, from Aptus but there are many brands) and micro-nutrients (I use B'Essentials, which also has amino acids and other things in it and have had no nutrient deficiency problems since doing that).
* Light. I'm growing partly indoors, partly on a balcony with full sun, and what has made an incredible difference, was the use of a very thin "early harvest fleece" from Romburg, which protects the plants from too much light or UV light, and allows them to concentrate on growing instead of repairing damage from sunburn. Plants are either growing or repairing damage, and I want them growing. The difference is incredible.
Now specifically to your problem of rising PH.
There are many things that can cause a rising PH. First of all, the nutrients that you use, especially a root stimulator like Canna Rhizotonic, which is very alkaline and can actually be used as a PH up supplement. Then, the filtering of the water may be incomplete, meaning that the buffering capacity of originally hard water is retained to some degree.
The way around that, is to prepare your nutrient solution, then let it stand for a few hours or a day (with aeration/an airstone or pump) and check the PH again. If it has gone up, you can PH it down again and that usually solves the problem. Acid eventually overcomes the water's buffering capacity.
* Many brands of coco (Canna, B'Cuzz) can be used out of the bag, however it never hurts to hydrate and flush the coco first, wither with a low nutrient solution, or specific flushing agents like Canna Flush. Bricks and other sources of coco should be flushed just to make sure.
* When you're a beginner, it is best to start with nutes that are specific to growing in coco, and the line of the producer of the coco (Canna, Plagron, Biobizz) are the nutrients to start out with. That just takes a lot of variables and headaches out of the picture.
* Before you plant seeds, load up the coco with 0.6 EC of nutrient solution plus the EC of the water itself. So if for example your water is 0.6 EC, start with a total of 1.2 EC. However...
* I like to top up the EC by 0.2 or 0.3 EC (to a total of 1.5 EC), with a high PK flower hardening nutrients (I use those from start to finish), because a) cannabis has a very high tolerance level for P and K, not for Nitrogen, b) P/K help with rooting, and prevent P/K deficiencies when the plant switches to flower, and c) any issues with extra use of P/K in coco or indoors/dry air are taken care of. This complete prevents the purpling of stems (unless you have low temps that prevent p/k takeup). Add root stimulator, so the P/K are taken up even more quickly and build up in the medium even less.
* When you use filtered water, you should always add Cal/Mag drops (I use about 6-8 to a quart or liter, from Aptus but there are many brands) and micro-nutrients (I use B'Essentials, which also has amino acids and other things in it and have had no nutrient deficiency problems since doing that).
* Light. I'm growing partly indoors, partly on a balcony with full sun, and what has made an incredible difference, was the use of a very thin "early harvest fleece" from Romburg, which protects the plants from too much light or UV light, and allows them to concentrate on growing instead of repairing damage from sunburn. Plants are either growing or repairing damage, and I want them growing. The difference is incredible.
Now specifically to your problem of rising PH.
There are many things that can cause a rising PH. First of all, the nutrients that you use, especially a root stimulator like Canna Rhizotonic, which is very alkaline and can actually be used as a PH up supplement. Then, the filtering of the water may be incomplete, meaning that the buffering capacity of originally hard water is retained to some degree.
The way around that, is to prepare your nutrient solution, then let it stand for a few hours or a day (with aeration/an airstone or pump) and check the PH again. If it has gone up, you can PH it down again and that usually solves the problem. Acid eventually overcomes the water's buffering capacity.
Last edited:
Dready_jake
Member
I was doing dtw but with only space for 5 gallons each way. It was easier to do this as 5 gals dtw in about a day and a half two days on this system and I need to leave for a week so dtw wasn't feasable for a low user input operation
OK on to the misconceptions. If you replenish the nutrients many times over a day the plants get all the nutrients they desire without ever getting a chance to deplete anything. I feed around 3-400ppms and I just went up to 4 times a day.
Without ever drying the salts remain suspended therefore am not flushing out bad salty water but simply refreshing the air and minute nutrients that were taken with fresh solution. That being said my plants drink the water with the nutrients at just about a 1:1 ratio. Just barely rising a few PPM's a day before getting diluted by top off When it gets below 4 gallons. Ph is crazy stable. I check it but rarely have to do anything. For instance after top off on day six of this Rez I added some ph down cuz it hit 6.2 and I adjusted it to 5.8
DONAJTHEIII
Member
Jack bro im no coco master but its all ive used and learned on this stuff never touched soil or anything else.
I didnt even have to read most of your post to know that you just need to relax and keep it simple. The flora series is fine although I would take out the cal mag and sub in an MG supplement its not the CA lacking at all in the GH nutes. I use tap that comes almost RO at 60-80ppm under .1ec and i only give em a cal mag shot on initial transplant and let the mg supplement replace it for the rest of the time. WATER => MG supplement=>FLORANOVA=>PH=>LET MIX/SIT
pick your route
organic coco vs sterile coco
you can kill it either way just gotta pick one way and get it dialed in.
the vets here all gave good advice 3 gal veg pot lol i dont even use that in flower
I didnt even have to read most of your post to know that you just need to relax and keep it simple. The flora series is fine although I would take out the cal mag and sub in an MG supplement its not the CA lacking at all in the GH nutes. I use tap that comes almost RO at 60-80ppm under .1ec and i only give em a cal mag shot on initial transplant and let the mg supplement replace it for the rest of the time. WATER => MG supplement=>FLORANOVA=>PH=>LET MIX/SIT
pick your route
organic coco vs sterile coco
you can kill it either way just gotta pick one way and get it dialed in.
the vets here all gave good advice 3 gal veg pot lol i dont even use that in flower
Wow. Late to this show I guess. Quite the turn out you pulled for a pH runoff question 
You'll just have to tinker, it really depends on your flow rates. I'd go with a pump that needed 1-3 minutes to really water them down.
Nutrient strength, to me, is all about buildup. If you're not getting runoff, and you're feeding multiple times per day to maximize saturation, then you're going to have to reduce the feed levels. This will also take some tinkering.
That's pretty warm. I've used frozen jugs of water to keep my temps in the lower 70s before. If you go with a cooler just remember they produce their own heat. If it's possible, you should try and keep your reservoir where your ambient/intake air comes from. If the intake is over 72 you're going to have heat issues to begin with and I'd rather see you spend the money on an AC unit to keep the room (and by extension water) temperature lower than a water cooler.
I think once a day is fine. Personally, I don't come any where near multifeeds, sometimes I'll go 2 days between feedings in my 2 gallon containers... I'm a negligent grower, sue me. But really coco has a huge tolerance for feeding frequency so as long as they aren't suffering you're fine. Multi-feeds are only really necessary when the vegetative mass up top is a lot larger than the root mass down below, like you see with rockwool.
https://youtu.be/C5tskhj8gAo
If soil is our starting point, then a naturally grown plant in 5 gallons of dirt would need to be in ~1 gallon or less of coco to really benefit from feedings more than 2x per day. I grow "2.5 gallon sized" plants in 1 gallon of coco so it affords me more time between waterings. Try to find the balance, that sweet spot. Plants grow on their schedule, by their own rules. It's good to have a plan but b ready to be loose about your feed program until you get a feel for what they really want.
He might not be. But I am. Personally, I don't like phosphoric acid in coco. I know a lot of people use it and I'm not totally on board with that either. My experiences without that product in the reservoir, versus with it, are really telling to me. Hey! that gives me an idea for another comparison grow.
The reason coco nutrient systems are coco nutrient systems, what makes them different from anything else, is their profile of elements. This isn't just an increased amount of Calcium because Coco just rinses that stuff right through. It also accounts for the Potassium that the coco will provide naturally throughout the grow and for phosphorus. Coco holds 2x-8x more Phosphorus than rockwool and we need to be mindful of this property when working with any product in the reservoir.
I approve of all organic acids (citric, fulvic, etc) and Nitric Acids seem to work really well also (Technaflora). I don't have the hard proof to back up my POV yet, but I'll work on that and see if this is just personal bias or if I've caught on to something in my own garden.
Rinse if you want to, you can remove salts left behind, because when you rinse, you gotta rinse, till there's nothing bad inside.
Rinsing probably isn't the answer. My guess is that the flora Nova just isn't doing you many favors. What's your mix look like now?
You'll just have to tinker, it really depends on your flow rates. I'd go with a pump that needed 1-3 minutes to really water them down.
Nutrient strength, to me, is all about buildup. If you're not getting runoff, and you're feeding multiple times per day to maximize saturation, then you're going to have to reduce the feed levels. This will also take some tinkering.
That's pretty warm. I've used frozen jugs of water to keep my temps in the lower 70s before. If you go with a cooler just remember they produce their own heat. If it's possible, you should try and keep your reservoir where your ambient/intake air comes from. If the intake is over 72 you're going to have heat issues to begin with and I'd rather see you spend the money on an AC unit to keep the room (and by extension water) temperature lower than a water cooler.
I think once a day is fine. Personally, I don't come any where near multifeeds, sometimes I'll go 2 days between feedings in my 2 gallon containers... I'm a negligent grower, sue me. But really coco has a huge tolerance for feeding frequency so as long as they aren't suffering you're fine. Multi-feeds are only really necessary when the vegetative mass up top is a lot larger than the root mass down below, like you see with rockwool.
https://youtu.be/C5tskhj8gAo
If soil is our starting point, then a naturally grown plant in 5 gallons of dirt would need to be in ~1 gallon or less of coco to really benefit from feedings more than 2x per day. I grow "2.5 gallon sized" plants in 1 gallon of coco so it affords me more time between waterings. Try to find the balance, that sweet spot. Plants grow on their schedule, by their own rules. It's good to have a plan but b ready to be loose about your feed program until you get a feel for what they really want.
He might not be. But I am. Personally, I don't like phosphoric acid in coco. I know a lot of people use it and I'm not totally on board with that either. My experiences without that product in the reservoir, versus with it, are really telling to me. Hey! that gives me an idea for another comparison grow.
The reason coco nutrient systems are coco nutrient systems, what makes them different from anything else, is their profile of elements. This isn't just an increased amount of Calcium because Coco just rinses that stuff right through. It also accounts for the Potassium that the coco will provide naturally throughout the grow and for phosphorus. Coco holds 2x-8x more Phosphorus than rockwool and we need to be mindful of this property when working with any product in the reservoir.
I approve of all organic acids (citric, fulvic, etc) and Nitric Acids seem to work really well also (Technaflora). I don't have the hard proof to back up my POV yet, but I'll work on that and see if this is just personal bias or if I've caught on to something in my own garden.
Rinse if you want to, you can remove salts left behind, because when you rinse, you gotta rinse, till there's nothing bad inside.
Rinsing probably isn't the answer. My guess is that the flora Nova just isn't doing you many favors. What's your mix look like now?
Dready_jake
Member
Ya it got long cuz we were all pulling different directions with different solutions lmfao
Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
Ur getting tons of good info. Snow crash is always on point.
Id add check out picos drip system in the tutorials, I think. The main things with it are keep the manifold level and keep the individual drip lines all the same length and u should have pretty equal watering to all sites. The drip line crap is cheap and easy, but one of downsides is the 1/2" manifold line is a pita to keep flat in situations. So if u want to go a little fancier u could use pvc.
Use whatever coco nutrient u want or gh at 6ml micro 9ml bloom per gallon (h3ads recipe, good read too!) Keep it at 1.2ec or less and around 5.8 ph. Anything between 5.5 and 6 and I don't sweat it.
If u keep it just chem salts in ur water res u don't need a chiller, air stone or anything. Doesn't matter if it gets warm. I wouldn't use any organic thru a drip system, or keep any organic in a res. Use it same day u mix it with organics imo.
Im with u on Idk where id be without these forums. Went from .2gpw to my best being 1.5gpw. I used to think a gpw was just some bullcrap somebody made up. Anyway to give u an idea I used to grow 12 plants per 600w in #2 pots and get 18 oz a light or about 1.5 oz per plant. Ive also used those same #2 pots and grown 6 plants per 600w vert and got 5 to 6oz per plant. Now im onto the 3.5 gallon buckets and doing 2 per 600w have got 16 oz per plant, but I think the possibility to get 20 to 24oz per 3.5 gallon pot is there. Like snow crash was saying about the rockwool with the larger plant mass than root zone. When u do it like that then multiple waterings per day is the correct strategy. But I think h3ad was just hand watering his #2 pots and getting 6 to 8 oz per plant.
Lots of different ways to grow. Just got to figure out how u want to accomplish it. The journey is a lot of fun!
Id add check out picos drip system in the tutorials, I think. The main things with it are keep the manifold level and keep the individual drip lines all the same length and u should have pretty equal watering to all sites. The drip line crap is cheap and easy, but one of downsides is the 1/2" manifold line is a pita to keep flat in situations. So if u want to go a little fancier u could use pvc.
Use whatever coco nutrient u want or gh at 6ml micro 9ml bloom per gallon (h3ads recipe, good read too!) Keep it at 1.2ec or less and around 5.8 ph. Anything between 5.5 and 6 and I don't sweat it.
If u keep it just chem salts in ur water res u don't need a chiller, air stone or anything. Doesn't matter if it gets warm. I wouldn't use any organic thru a drip system, or keep any organic in a res. Use it same day u mix it with organics imo.
Im with u on Idk where id be without these forums. Went from .2gpw to my best being 1.5gpw. I used to think a gpw was just some bullcrap somebody made up. Anyway to give u an idea I used to grow 12 plants per 600w in #2 pots and get 18 oz a light or about 1.5 oz per plant. Ive also used those same #2 pots and grown 6 plants per 600w vert and got 5 to 6oz per plant. Now im onto the 3.5 gallon buckets and doing 2 per 600w have got 16 oz per plant, but I think the possibility to get 20 to 24oz per 3.5 gallon pot is there. Like snow crash was saying about the rockwool with the larger plant mass than root zone. When u do it like that then multiple waterings per day is the correct strategy. But I think h3ad was just hand watering his #2 pots and getting 6 to 8 oz per plant.
Lots of different ways to grow. Just got to figure out how u want to accomplish it. The journey is a lot of fun!
I think you are overwhelmed with info. This is your 1st coco crop so try to keep the variables and things that require tinkering to a minimum. When you get a good healthy crop or two completed, start expanding.
I recommend:
Hand water-when the plants get big go with once a day. When you learn your way around coco then consider some automated system.
Inoculate with Great White or something similar. Do this repetedly thru the life of the crop. Forget SM-90. It'll kill you beneficials.
Forget runoff pH. BTW, what do your plants look like? Are you having problems that could be pH related or is your only problem that your runoff pH is higher than you think it should be. I've never checked runoff pH. Just make sure that what you apply is between 5.8 to 6.1.
Use Citric acid for pH Down [Earth Juice Down is one].
Quit flushing and keep runoff no higher than 30-40%. Except for preharvest, don't use plain water.
The CEC is like a bank in the coco. The coco will hoard certain things and if you use too much runoff or flush with water you fuck the CEC up and it throws everything off, causing deficiencies. If you use a top brand of coco like Botanicare, Canna, BCuzz, don't flush. These brands come already buffered [proper CEC].
Most nute lines in coco recommend tap water. If yours is shitty, mix tap and RO, filtering or bubbling the Chlorine out 1st.
Proof read your posts. A typo of yours early on confused several people causing wasted time and useless advice. And it cuts down on annoyance. Good luck. -granger
I recommend:
Hand water-when the plants get big go with once a day. When you learn your way around coco then consider some automated system.
Inoculate with Great White or something similar. Do this repetedly thru the life of the crop. Forget SM-90. It'll kill you beneficials.
Forget runoff pH. BTW, what do your plants look like? Are you having problems that could be pH related or is your only problem that your runoff pH is higher than you think it should be. I've never checked runoff pH. Just make sure that what you apply is between 5.8 to 6.1.
Use Citric acid for pH Down [Earth Juice Down is one].
Quit flushing and keep runoff no higher than 30-40%. Except for preharvest, don't use plain water.
The CEC is like a bank in the coco. The coco will hoard certain things and if you use too much runoff or flush with water you fuck the CEC up and it throws everything off, causing deficiencies. If you use a top brand of coco like Botanicare, Canna, BCuzz, don't flush. These brands come already buffered [proper CEC].
Most nute lines in coco recommend tap water. If yours is shitty, mix tap and RO, filtering or bubbling the Chlorine out 1st.
Proof read your posts. A typo of yours early on confused several people causing wasted time and useless advice. And it cuts down on annoyance. Good luck. -granger
Zarthustra
Member
Hello, I have arrived.
If I where you, I would:
Change my food to 6/9. 6ml/gal micro, 9ml/gal bloom which is around 1.4-1.5 ec. I would also increase my light output to 600 or so, whatever is between 400-1000 on the ballast. I would also only feed my plants when they're starting to dry up.
If I where you, I would:
Change my food to 6/9. 6ml/gal micro, 9ml/gal bloom which is around 1.4-1.5 ec. I would also increase my light output to 600 or so, whatever is between 400-1000 on the ballast. I would also only feed my plants when they're starting to dry up.
jack mehaulf
Member
Thanks everyone!,
fuck yeah super good advice here.
Granger2, yeah I had some whole plant yellowing in first week, that I fixed by bumping up my feeds,
they got pretty healthy, BUT I was noticing some leaves on one strain were twisting and wanting to flip the self alittle, and and that strain the leaves were also clawing upwards like a taco not to bad but alittlle,
and on a different strain I noticed the tips on a few leaves were curling down, and the. Taco downwards from the center vein.... But it is only sorta noticeable on One plant of the one strain, and that was the one that read 6.3 run off witch I thought was the best...,
DONAJTHElll, I understand it is just stressful having this be the first grow but the crop cycles are short and my next crop with be much better thanks to everyone here,
Snowcrash, that's some very nice info..
Idk Wtf my problem is really... maybe the run off is wrong but it's crazy flushing 5.5 water Thru a plant and getting gallons of runoff coming out seconds later at 6.6... it's just... confusing something is happening...
But I do think I will change my nutes next crop, this time I am going to ride out what I have and see if I can learn from it
fuck yeah super good advice here.
Granger2, yeah I had some whole plant yellowing in first week, that I fixed by bumping up my feeds,
they got pretty healthy, BUT I was noticing some leaves on one strain were twisting and wanting to flip the self alittle, and and that strain the leaves were also clawing upwards like a taco not to bad but alittlle,
and on a different strain I noticed the tips on a few leaves were curling down, and the. Taco downwards from the center vein.... But it is only sorta noticeable on One plant of the one strain, and that was the one that read 6.3 run off witch I thought was the best...,
DONAJTHElll, I understand it is just stressful having this be the first grow but the crop cycles are short and my next crop with be much better thanks to everyone here,
Snowcrash, that's some very nice info..
Idk Wtf my problem is really... maybe the run off is wrong but it's crazy flushing 5.5 water Thru a plant and getting gallons of runoff coming out seconds later at 6.6... it's just... confusing something is happening...
But I do think I will change my nutes next crop, this time I am going to ride out what I have and see if I can learn from it
jack mehaulf
Member
My solution is to relax and tinker I'm going to get my feeds down and not worry about run off and see what happends, I'm also going to let my nutrient solution bubble over night and stable before I feed,
Next run I will get 2 or 3 gal pots and get a new nutrient line up
Next run I will get 2 or 3 gal pots and get a new nutrient line up
jack mehaulf
Member
If u guys stick around I will post some pictures as soon as I figure it out!
I think I need 50 post??
I think I need 50 post??
jack mehaulf
Member
Attachments
Nice, I guess it's 50 posts to send a PM not post piks
If you would have posted piks right away it would have been easier to see the problem. Quit flushing and drowning them and drop the ec. They are overdosing on N. You'll be fine then.jack mehaulf
Member
I don't think it is a over water issue...
it's only this one plant that is falling like that I no what over watering looks like I think my nutrients are imbalanced
it's only this one plant that is falling like that I no what over watering looks like I think my nutrients are imbalanced
