My OBBT Bucket Build

[rrog]

Rip, remind me again how you dealt with males? You used seeds or clones?

 

[h.h.]

The plant will die at the base. The top just doesn't know it yet. Covering them keeps moisture in the leaves and prolongs the inevitable.
To me this is damping off. When I Google it, damping is listed as fungal problem. I've always attributed it to potting soil that wasn't ready. Early nitrogen burn at the soil line.

 

[rrog]

Thanks H2. I valeu all observations and opinions.

The whole point of the OBBT is to have good fungal cooperation.

You don't think these drown?

 

[LadyLargely]

The plant will die at the base. The top just doesn't know it yet. Covering them keeps moisture in the leaves and prolongs the inevitable.
To me this is damping off. When I Google it, damping is listed as fungal problem. I've always attributed it to potting soil that wasn't ready. Early nitrogen burn at the soil line.

'damping off' is another term for root rot and it is not a fungus, it is a mold. The beneficial fungi in an active OBBT should be able to fight those fuckers off in their sleep!

rrog:

Mate, I didn't think it would happen but I believe you may have discovered what goes down when you use too much air flow in an OBBT. I think the massive surge of air produced by your dual-3-inch-round-stones per tub is pushing too much moisture up into the medium. Your babies have the classic signs of too much moisture, they look exactly like over-watered sprouts.

Pull them up and check the roots? If they are brown and slimy pull on them. If it is root rot then 99% of the slimy root will fall away leaving only a tiny hair-like filament.

But that would surprise the piss outta me. Root rot is anaerobic in nature. The default conditions of your mega-oxygenated tubs should kill them off, let alone all the beneficial fungus living in there.

Where you misting the plants at all? Puting glass domes over them? Adding extra mostiure in any way? If you where then try not doing any of that shit next time. If you wheren't then I'm afraid you'll have to pull your tubs apart and cut them down to a single air stone. I stuck my baby plants into my OBBTs straight out of the sprouting towel. I used no humidity domes or misting or whatever. I had my overdriven floro lamp right on top of the baby plants on even the very first day. Couldn't have been 4 inches of clearance from the top of the plants to the bottom of the tubes.

Baby sprouts usually need all kinds of help. Humidity domes, misting, etc. But in the OBBTs they need nothing. Keep everything above the soil line warm and dry, they can take it.

 

[McDanger]

Well all three seedlings are dead as doornails. I have buckets still bubbling, but lights are now off.

4 new seeds are being Ethylene treated with banana and apple.

Is there any sort of clock ticking with the OBBT? I mean, If I planted again in 2 weeks, would that be a significant step backwards or would the medium be "cooler" then?

I think the excess moisture was a potential culprit. Stems were brown and came right off. The top medium area was moist but not too moist. So I assume it was my glass cups, dunno.

My options:

#1 I could re-mix all three buckets and let them re-percolate for 2 weeks.

#2 I could let the existing (no re-mix) medium cook for 2 more weeks (been 2 weeks already) while the Ethylene does its thing on the new seeds.

#3 I could plant seeds today. No Ethylene treatment.

I think next round the seedlings will go in earlier. I think that should make for a more stable entry into the soil. What do y'all think?

Thanks

I had a problem getting the seedlings to root directly into the OBBT also. I rooted in a small cup and put an empty cup in the bucket so when I transplant all you have to do is drop the whole rootball into the space left by the empty cup. They seem to acclimate slowly to the new medium then take off.
I don't know anything about the ethelyne, but I don't think you need to remix the medium, just maybe get the seedlings a little more established before putting into the bucket.
My medium is HOT also, but I have not had any problems associated with that.
I also don't think you need to worry about watering thru the overflow, I just pour the water right on top at the base of the plant and have had no problems caused by that.
Here are some pics of the recent build

 

[rrog]

Thanks LadyL. Hello McD.

Yes humidity domes and spritzing. That's why I thought water. Also, the seedlings were planted in the mud of some cooled off fine composted soil. So maybe not much aeration in there while the roots were just coming out. Just next to the roots, I mean.

I think the transplant area needed to be a bit more open and airy.

Here's my plan. Love any feedback:

I think I'll designate a receiving area for the seedlings in the OBBT. A small mix of soil + vermiculite. Maybe 1/2 cup of this finer medium. I'll create these areas now so they can incorporate into the OBBT micro-life.

Second round of seeds started with Ethylene. I was going to continue with this for 1 week, then sprout (with Ethylene) for a few days more.

Should I feed the microlife over the next 2 weeks? I can add LactoB, and/ or add some molasses.

Then plop them in again. I'd really like to avoid the intermediate cups of medium and insert straight into the OBBT.

This sound reasonable? My biggest question is about the percolating OBBT. Will it lose steam over time here? Been cooking for 2 weeks total. The current plan will have a 4 week old medium. That OK?

EDIT: I may look at closing off 1 of the 2 stones per bucket.

Thanks for the help.

 

[h.h.]

I don't think it was a fungus or a mold. I get the same symptoms from cheap potting soil when the manure isn't fully processed. He wasn't fully incubated as Rip mentioned.
I don't know about the domes either. I only use them in the winter or mainly to keep the birds off. It may have been from the leaves staying too wet. Maybe too hot from lack of circulation. I couldn't tell much from the pics.

 

[rrog]

Thanks h2. Doesn't sound like you feel waiting a couple weeks will hurt the medium.

 

[LadyLargely]

*nods* aha, yea, I would definitely point a finger at 'too wet' given this info.

A little plug of dirt/vermiculite should root babies really nicely. Airy enough to keep them healthy but dense enough for their tiny little roots to keep from drying out.

There should be no issue with your long-incubated tubs. Feed them if you wish, but they've got enough food to live for years. I've actually been talking to user FromDaBrush OG. He copied my technique verbatum, but because of technical setbacks his tubs sat and incubated for more than a month before plants went in.

It sounds like his OBBTs actually benefited from the extended incubation. Given what I've read by user ganja din lately it makes a lot of sense. I think the delay will do nothing but benefit your microbes.

Your modified plan sounds really good. I'm shocked and at the same time endeared that you are continuing to muddle through and are determined to root straight into the buckets. Most gardeners would have said 'fuckit' and used a peat pellet long ago. I admire your conviction sir, good luck with this next shot at liftoff.

 

[McDanger]

Thanks LadyL. Hello McD.

Yes humidity domes and spritzing. That's why I thought water. Also, the seedlings were planted in the mud of some cooled off fine composted soil. So maybe not much aeration in there while the roots were just coming out. Just next to the roots, I mean.

I think the transplant area needed to be a bit more open and airy.

Here's my plan. Love any feedback:

I think I'll designate a receiving area for the seedlings in the OBBT. A small mix of soil + vermiculite. Maybe 1/2 cup of this finer medium. I'll create these areas now so they can incorporate into the OBBT micro-life.

Second round of seeds started with Ethylene. I was going to continue with this for 1 week, then sprout (with Ethylene) for a few days more.

Should I feed the microlife over the next 2 weeks? I can add LactoB, and/ or add some molasses.

Then plop them in again. I'd really like to avoid the intermediate cups of medium and insert straight into the OBBT.

This sound reasonable? My biggest question is about the percolating OBBT. Will it lose steam over time here? Been cooking for 2 weeks total. The current plan will have a 4 week old medium. That OK?

EDIT: I may look at closing off 1 of the 2 stones per bucket.

Thanks for the help.

Hey rrog,
I don't think the microherd uses up the nutes, it just converts them to a form readily available to the plant, if I understand correctly. (if not, somebody please set me straight)

 

[rrog]

THanks LadyL,

I'm quite convinced this is the best growing system there can be. I also feel there's benefit from the roots hitting bio-active medium asap. I need to idiot-proof this for me, and maybe others can learn from my newb errors.

But all in all my support of the method hasn't wavered. It's just that there are many variables, and running too close to max on some parameters has dangers.

Cooking the medium down further makes sense. (Thanks for that verification LadyL McD) and all that air may not have been the best, and I may close off one stone and just leave 1 per bucket running. I may add the second stone later when roots abound a bit more. But I have soooo much air I'll have to blow some through empty lines.

 

[magiccannabus]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about how soil outside works, and I've noticed all soil is layered. Each layer tends to work a bit differently, and if the right combination of layers is there, the plants thrive. Would OBBT benefit from adding in a third or fourth layer? Where would they go? What would they be made of? Maybe I'm chasing a wild goose here, but just thought I'd mention the idea and see if anyone had thoughts on it.

 

[LadyLargely]

Hey rrog,
I don't think the microherd uses up the nutes, it just converts them to a form readily available to the plant, if I understand correctly. (if not, somebody please set me straight)

Sortof. The idea is that the microherd doesn't use up nutes that the plants use. They do still 'eat'.

The plants, as we know, consume elemental nutrition. N-P-K along with micros and traces. Plants like this sort of stuff because they make their own food and need the basic building blocks to do so.

Fungi and bacteria on the other hand can't make their own food, so N-P-K and such are useless to them. These members of our OBBT ecosystems instead prefer to consume carbohydrates and other material.

As a side effect of consuming their preferred food the fungi and bacteria 'purify' the N-P-K nutrition! They scrape the elements away from their preferred food (they don't want to eat that nasty shit) and shove them off to the side. By doing this they make said elements readily avaliable for the plants to consume!

So its not that the microherd doesn't consume the nutes you add, they just don't consume the parts of the nutes that the plants want to use. They just eat up the other bits of the organic ferts. This is why I like additives like Molasses, Kelp or Alfalfa Meal. They are great for cannabis but they also contain loads of carbohydrates that the microbes love to eat!

I've been doing a lot of thinking about how soil outside works, and I've noticed all soil is layered. Each layer tends to work a bit differently, and if the right combination of layers is there, the plants thrive. Would OBBT benefit from adding in a third or fourth layer? Where would they go? What would they be made of? Maybe I'm chasing a wild goose here, but just thought I'd mention the idea and see if anyone had thoughts on it.

Hmmm... Interesting! Treat the OBBT bath like a water table found in nature, then layer matirial on top of it like the layers of naturally-occuring soil.

Doing this could, in theory, harbor a greater variety of microlife and perhaps facilitate more flexible and powerful soil chemistry processes. It could give the OBBTs a softer and more natural setup. The only trouble is you would have to find new, different yet still suitable matirials to make up these layers. I've worked hard enough to get just the current OBBT medium to work right. It would mean more research and experimentation to find new ingredients that are still low-density enough to make an OBBT fly.

Could be worth the effort though! Like your line of thinking here MC, exactly the sort of thing needed for these early experimental days in the OBBT's life. Keep the brain-joices flowing!

 

[rrog]

Should I throw a bit of molasses water on my buckets while they perk for another two weeks?

 

[h.h.]

The greatest difference from a natural setting might be more sand around the water table. In playing with unorthodox mixes I've found with the air flow finer particles settle and pack where they become anaerobic.

 

[rrog]

I think fine particles are to be avoided at all cost

 

[LadyLargely]

really fine stuff like sand can compact and cause issues. This is why I really like a large-grain chunky vermiculite. The little accordion-shaped volcanic granules grips super-fine particles that come from soil or additives like greensand. Fine particles can be ok, just don't use too much and choose them wisely. Soil is a mega-fine particle base but its essential to our technique. Stuff like ash and sea solids could also be highly beneficial.

rrog:

I think you should give them a nice heavy 1.5 Tbsp per gallon dose of molasses shortly before the next round of plants go in. Whatever you use to top off and moisten the medium before planting. The molasses tends to burn off really quickly and 'wakes up' the bacteria colonies, spiking their population.

You must remember, even with nute levels a bit lower than mine your microsphere has a lot of consumable material on its plate. You don't necessarily want to feed them a steady diet of volatile, easy-to-digest stuff like molasses. As they run out of quick-feed easy access carbohydrates they set to work on the more difficult-to-digest stuff. This is where you get the really cool obscure amino acid action from the fungus do digest crazy things like rock dust and char. There are benefits to be had from making your microbes work for a living. Molasses is good for a jump-start, but we've loaded up with kelp up front that is nearly as easy for them to use. Just let it sit and become soil, the little ecosystem will chug along and continue to stabilize and raise availability of the organic nutrition.

 

[rrog]

Very sensible LadyL. Thank you. The buckets are still bubbling during the 2 week wait here.

Would a dose of LactoB + Molasses have any benefit during that soak?

 

[magiccannabus]

Could be worth the effort though! Like your line of thinking here MC, exactly the sort of thing needed for these early experimental days in the OBBT's life. Keep the brain-joices flowing!

hmmmm..... do you think we could aerate brain juices?

 

[rrog]

LOL!