Lets compost

[Scrappy4]

Now that it is spring, I thought we could use a compost pile thread, to get tips on making it and it's use. Any input, questions, tips, whatever is welcome. I'll start it with my story.

I have two compost piles, both are now active despite our cold spring. (upper midwest) One pile, actually it is in a large smart pot type sak. I bought two of these saks, one is used for soil mixes, one for compost.

http://www.compostsak.com/

The sak pile is nice and hot, despite our still freezing temps. It is mostly oak leaves and pine needles from the fall, mixed with some old grass clippings. It just sat there since mid winter when i filled the sak up from my main pile.

To get things started this spring in the sak i added some used soil from a grow, roots and all, the left over glob of earth juice grow that i had to cut open a bottle to get it out, a half bottle of fish emulsion, (the ej and fish were mixed in a bucket of water, then poured on the pile) some left over ewc tea, and the two main starters, alfalfa meal and some bakashi. When the bakashi went in, it started heating up right away. In a week or so it went from looking like leaf fragments, to looking like soil. although i probably did not need it that much, i turned it daily for two weeks or so. If you look closely you still can see small fragments of pine needles and small bits of leaf, the alfalfa looks like ash. All in all, it is starting to look and feel like spongy moisture holding soil, and is nice an black in color. I assume it will be ready to mix with grow soil in a month or two, just in time for using in my veggie garden along with my indoor garden.

The other pile, is simply a pile of leaves/clippings. In the fall i pick up my leaves with the bagger on the lawn mower. I empty the leaves on a section of my yard, then run over the leaves several times to break the leaves into smaller pieces. Through out the winter i add veggie scraps, coffee grounds and the like from the kitchen. I used to let it sit untouched till the next fall, then till it in my veggie garden as partially broken down cold compost. The soil/microbes then broke it down further over the winter. By spring planting time it was mostly soil.

To get this pile heated up faster and for more thermal compost, i added alfalfa meal. Once we got some rain the pile started to heat up, and now looking at it from my window, despite having two inches of fresh wet snow, the pile has generated enough heat to melt the snow on top of it.

I'm actually kind of excited about all this......scrappy

 

[mad librettist]

Lets compost

you gotta keep them oak leaves out of there and into their own separate pile. otherwise they really hold up the show.

 

[Scrappy4]

you gotta keep them oak leaves out of there and into their own separate pile. otherwise they really hold up the show.

Without oak leaves there is no pile. The pile is over 90% oak leaves. I'm just using what is readily available to me......scrappy

 

[jaykush]

ill be making a new fungal compost pit soon, ill take pics and post if i remember.

you gotta keep them oak leaves out of there and into their own separate pile. otherwise they really hold up the show.

i don't think so, i got oak leaves in just about every compost pile. they make good long term organic matter. fungi love them too.

 

[mad librettist]

I'm sure you can scrounge up some compostable materials in the 3 years it will take oak leaves to break down lol. Yes they are absolutely more nutritious than other leaves, but they are not quick. They need fungi to break down because of all the lignin. Fungal=slow.


If you gotta use 'em - shred 'em. With lots of processing you can compost an oak leaf in 6 months, but that same processing will break down a maple leaf in a month and a half. (shredding anything favors bacteria)


If I had lots of oak leaves I would have a separate pile for them, and when half done they would go in the hot piles.

 

[pinecone]

Very useful discussion. My soil is "glacial till" (clay and rock) and I haven't had much luck with my veg garden as a result. With an eye toward getting a good garden going next year, I started gathering a bunch of yard waste from my neighbors. It is mostly leaves with a lot of oak in there. I have huge piles of this stuff in my backyard now, but it is not heating up (very cold here in the Midwest now). Do you guys think it will get going if empty a bottle of fish into a 5 gallon bucket poor it over the top - or will have have to wait until I can get some grass clippings going? Is there any chance that this stuff will be decomposed enough to plant in this year?

Pine

 

[mad librettist]

Scrappy's heat is from the bokashi if his pile is 90% oak leaves. Maybe check craigslist to see if anyone needs to get rid of some bokashi?

Otherwise grass clippings are awesome but it's early even for cool season grasses to be putting on weight.

 

[Scrappy4]

I've been using oak leaves for compost in my garden since I bought this place in 97. I went organic in 07. Until this year, I piled them in the fall, added grass clippings and veggie scraps occasionally, then after fall harvest, tilled the leaves from the last year in the garden. I would have 6-8 inches of leaves on the whole garden that were ground in. By spring they were 90% incorporated in the soil. My garden was yellow beach sand in 97, now it is black and full of organic goodies.

This year is my first serious attempt at thermal compost. With the bakasi and alfalfa meal added the shredded leaves break down in weeks......scrappy

 

[mad librettist]

oak leaves in weeks?

I'll believe that when I see and feel the free-of-shredded-oak-leaf humus.

Maybe the oak leaves I've known were all special?


Ever go to a suburban forest with oaks in the late spring? The only leaves around are oak leaves. What happened to all the other leaves? Lots of people (I'm not saying anyone here) "only have oak leaves" because everything else is gone. They pile up because of the high lignin content.

lignin content is a huge factor in substrate degradability, and oak leaves come with lots of it.

 

[greenmatter]

Very useful discussion. My soil is "glacial till" (clay and rock) and I haven't had much luck with my veg garden as a result. With an eye toward getting a good garden going next year, I started gathering a bunch of yard waste from my neighbors. It is mostly leaves with a lot of oak in there. I have huge piles of this stuff in my backyard now, but it is not heating up (very cold here in the Midwest now). Do you guys think it will get going if empty a bottle of fish into a 5 gallon bucket poor it over the top - or will have have to wait until I can get some grass clippings going? Is there any chance that this stuff will be decomposed enough to plant in this year?

Pine

i have the same thing going on every spring. you are on the right track with the fish juice. getting some fresh N into the pile is what you want to do. growmore make pelletized urea, i don't use the stuff on my plants but if you water a sleepy compost pile with it it wakes it up fast. cheap too!

 

[Scrappy4]

Very useful discussion. My soil is "glacial till" (clay and rock) and I haven't had much luck with my veg garden as a result. With an eye toward getting a good garden going next year, I started gathering a bunch of yard waste from my neighbors. It is mostly leaves with a lot of oak in there. I have huge piles of this stuff in my backyard now, but it is not heating up (very cold here in the Midwest now). Do you guys think it will get going if empty a bottle of fish into a 5 gallon bucket poor it over the top - or will have have to wait until I can get some grass clippings going? Is there any chance that this stuff will be decomposed enough to plant in this year?

Pine

Pine, in the 80's I had a pond dug on my property. From the pond I filled 3 acres of land with clay from the hole. Despite hundreds of pounds of fertilizer and grass seed, it barely could grow grass.My county extension office recommended gypsum to break the soil up enough for grass to grow, the cost was prohibitive so I went with the second choice, alfalfa. I bought a couple of those huge round bales of alfalfa from a farmer, then he disked it in. The alfalfa allowed air in the clay, and added nutrients to allow grass to grow on what looked like modeling clay...scrappy

 

[pinecone]

Maybe check craigslist to see if anyone needs to get rid of some bokashi?

Good idea, but no dice.

Pine, in the 80's I had a pond dug on my property. From the pond I filled 3 acres of land with clay from the hole. Despite hundreds of pounds of fertilizer and grass seed, it barely could grow grass.My county extension office recommended gypsum to break the soil up enough for grass to grow, the cost was prohibitive so I went with the second choice, alfalfa. I bought a couple of those huge round bales of alfalfa from a farmer, then he disked it in. The alfalfa allowed air in the clay, and added nutrients to allow grass to grow on what looked like modeling clay...scrappy

How much does one of those big rolls cost - and can you find people to deliver it? My other option would be to see if I can get someone to dump some horse or cow manure over here.

Pine

 

[mad librettist]

I got it from Jaykush that sweet potato as cover will break up your clay. I haven't tried it myself but Jay's description sounded good enough that I have been suggesting it to people I know with yards, so I can use one as a personal test case.

you should plant some sweet potato!

 

[greenmatter]

you gotta keep them oak leaves out of there and into their own separate pile. otherwise they really hold up the show.

i wish i was lucky enough to have oaks. i have both compost and leaf mold piles in the works all the time. my leaf mold piles are just that leaves only, and they take forever to break down. if i use the same leaves as "browns" in the compost piles they are gone fast. the way i always understood it was that the compost pile had lots more bacteria at work while the leaf mold was getting worked on by mostly fungus. is this wrong?

 

[greenmatter]

Good idea, but no dice.



How much does one of those big rolls cost - and can you find people to deliver it? My other option would be to see if I can get someone to dump some horse or cow manure over here.

Pine

a good place to score alfalfa is at a feed store. 50 Lbs. pelletized runs about 10 bucks. cost more than scrappy's solution but it will fit in the trunk.

 

[mad librettist]

i always understood it was that the compost pile had lots more bacteria at work while the leaf mold was getting worked on by mostly fungus. is this wrong?

well the experts always make it sound like only one thing is going on at a time. I think that's accidental on their part.

leaf mold is a fungal process, yes, and the slower you do it the more fungal it is. when you shred leaves, you increase surface area - advantage bacteria.

Think of a stump. The wood inside the stump is not accessible to bacteria, even the lignin degraders. But a fungus can get in. But what if you grind the stump, not just to dust but into pulp? well now you have given bacteria lots of surface area. This doesn't mean that thermophilic aerobes can suddenly eat lignin (they can't AFAIK), it just means that what is edible for bacteria in that material is now a thousand times more exposed..

BUT - mechanical processing doesn't make lignin digestible. AFAIK certain anaerobes do it, or fungi do it (or animals teaming with microbes - like termites).


I haven't said oak leaves are bad to compost. But for someone trying to get a hot pile going who needs compost anytime soon, oak leaves are a poor choice.

 

[Scrappy4]

Good idea, but no dice.



How much does one of those big rolls cost - and can you find people to deliver it? My other option would be to see if I can get someone to dump some horse or cow manure over here.

Pine

My cost in the 80's was a case of beer. I have seen near where i live now a farmer with three small rolls of what looks like alfalafa for $40, but really just go to a farm that has alfalfa fields and ask. Sometimes personal contact is best for great deals....scrappy

 

[pearlemae]

Just some more info to the compost pile. You can and I do compost just about every thing. DO NOT compost meat, bones, and pig poop. The meat and bones will attract varmints that you don't need or want. Pig poo because of cross over contamination, pig to people germs ie" swine flu.
I compost newpapers, where I live the ink is soy based, cardboard makes a nice brown,vacuum cleaner dirt, hair, and any thing else that will break down. If you can place a top over the pile or bin it will keep the rain from washing away the beneficial nutes. Keep your pile moist like a wrung out sponge and turn it for O2 the more O2 the happier the critters are. Check with your county extention agent if your in the states, they have tons of free info on composting and most all other aspects of gardening most have Master Gardeners to answer questions and give advice, check them out.
:smoweedJust a question how do you move those bags of wet compost when they are full, or turn what in them? just askin.

 

[Scrappy4]

a good place to score alfalfa is at a feed store. 50 Lbs. pelletized runs about 10 bucks. cost more than scrappy's solution but it will fit in the trunk.

I used alfalfa meal for my compost piles. ($12 where i live) On the my compost pile with mostly leaves, the alfalfa meal, once wet, is really a good catalyst to break down the leaves, but slower than the pile with bakashi added, for sure. But for larger areas part of the benefit using alfalfa whole, is the stems and sticks create air pockets in the clay, that the finely ground meal would not......scrappy

 

[Scrappy4]

All this reminds me of a story from back when i bought the alfalfa bales. I first asked a neighbor that was a retired farmer where to get alfalfa. He said the loft of my barn is full of it, take all you want for free. The loft had alfalfa that had set for years. Nice and rotted I thought, perfect. I backed in my truck, climbed up to the loft and began pitch forking it down to my truck. In a few minutes, I could not breath, the dust seemed toxic, my eyes swelled up and i could not breath, and i had to quit. Turns out the farmer caught pneumonia twice trying to shovel that alfalfa out and quit trying.....scrappy