Experiencing N Def with Fish Diet

[mad librettist]

Clack, et al.

I want to make a little point about Neptune's Harvest. It's a product I use. It's also a product i'd like to replace by the time this bottle runs out. Everything clack says it true, but on top of that, the species used by neptune's harvest is a filter feeding fish called menhaden (bunker). It is the most important forage fish for striped bass, bluefish, and weakfish on the eastern seaboard. Those are the top predators - indicator species. Menhaden are the highest energy food source out there. They have more oil per gram than any other fish. We are talking whale oil replacement - we are talking wd-40.

The menhaden fishing industry is destroying stocks through a practice called purse seining. This wipes out entire schools with tens of thousands of individuals with one swipe. They spot them with helicopters. The result is not only loss of prey - it's loss of habitat and dead zones. When algae blooms bloom, guess who nature sends in? menhaden.

anyone see an unsustainable practice here? fertilizer, vitamins, chicken feed, industrial lube - how much can you expect of one fish? The heath claims are true, and more! Filter feeders don't accumulate much in the way of heavy metals, so even menhaden emulsion would be clean.

 

[przcvctm]

I guess the question is, for me anyway, if the use of fish hydrolysate were successfully boycotted, would the depletion of fisheries stop? Is it close to being the primary reason menhaden are being caught or is it just efficient use of what is left over?

If it's just making good use of remains that would be wasted, that would be a different story, for me. It would be entirely dissimilar to the argument that you might as well order and enjoy the veal because it's dead anyway. Eating the veal perpetuates the suffering. Does using fish fertilizer do the same?

 

[Zendo]

Capt.Cheeze1

CT Guy sells this specific product on his web site at an extremely fair price (something like $15.00 per lb.) and the recommended usage is 1.5 tsp. per gallon.

CC

Hey CC, do you know the addy for the website?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Hey CC, do you know the addy for the website?

Zendo

Keep It Simple Seaweed Extract

A few months back CT Guy and I were discussing his product and it my personal opinion (I'm 99.99% sure) that this product is from Acadian Seaplants up in Nova Scotia.

Acadian Seaplants is huge operation where they process kelp into kelp meal as well as the seaweed extraction products. Usually the seaweed extract product line is a wholesale only product which comes in 22 kg. packages. A handful of folks like CT Guy have been allowed to purchase these master packs and break them up into smaller units.

A pound of this product would last at least a year for most people.

It's nothing short of amazing and at his price of $13.99 per lb means that it's about 1/2 the price of the MaxiCrop powder which isn't nearly as good.

Also check out the Humic/Fulvic acid products that CT Guy sells. Exceptionally low prices - particularly on the humic acid products.

CT Guy also carries one of the best compost tea brewers in the 5-gallon size. Quite a nice unit at a low price.

HTH

CC

 

[mad librettist]

I guess the question is, for me anyway, if the use of fish hydrolysate were successfully boycotted, would the depletion of fisheries stop? Is it close to being the primary reason menhaden are being caught or is it just efficient use of what is left over?

If it's just making good use of remains that would be wasted, that would be a different story, for me. It would be entirely dissimilar to the argument that you might as well order and enjoy the veal because it's dead anyway. Eating the veal perpetuates the suffering. Does using fish fertilizer do the same?

this is hard to accept. it's a bit sophisticated for me. menhaden fishing is all for "biproducts". It's the death of a thousand cuts. You are telling me "is that any reason to stop cutting?".

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I guess the question is, for me anyway, if the use of fish hydrolysate were successfully boycotted, would the depletion of fisheries stop? Is it close to being the primary reason menhaden are being caught or is it just efficient use of what is left over?

If it's just making good use of remains that would be wasted, that would be a different story, for me. It would be entirely dissimilar to the argument that you might as well order and enjoy the veal because it's dead anyway. Eating the veal perpetuates the suffering. Does using fish fertilizer do the same?

przcvctm

The actual source (manufacturing location) makes a lot of difference.

For example in Mississippi farmed-raised catfish is a large industry. When the fish are processed into fillets and such, the remains are then processed using the enzyme process by a couple of different companies.

Up in Anacortes, Washington is the home to several ocean-going fishing vessels. The fish are brought into the processing plants in that city resulting in large amounts of fish waste. This waste is then converted again by using enzymes to break it down into a liquid.

In Baja Mexico there is plant that processes grunion (the ol' favorite Southern California nighttime fun on the beach - the grunion runs). These fish (about the size of a sardine) are caught specifically for the purpose of making fish hydrosylate.

And then there are the various fish hydrosylate products showing up from China & India, et al.

Knowing the actual source of your fish hydrosylate products can help you choose the least harmful methods/fish material.

HTH

CC

 

[mad librettist]

i'm talking about neptune's harvest.

it's done using purse seining, and it is decimating not only the menhaden but the higher order predators that depend on them, as well as the alternative food sources.

menhaden fishing needs to be reduced dramatically to save the eastern seaboard.

I can't criticize anyone's choices. I eat meat. that's already three strikes. But the sea in particular is under attack. And what I can do is show what using neptune's harvest means, so they can make a real choice rather than buy the "green" lie.

 

[Zendo]

Thanks CC! Wow, what a great link and information! I'll be placing an order shortly.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I guess the question is, for me anyway, if the use of fish hydrolysate were successfully boycotted, would the depletion of fisheries stop? Is it close to being the primary reason menhaden are being caught or is it just efficient use of what is left over?

If it's just making good use of remains that would be wasted, that would be a different story, for me. It would be entirely dissimilar to the argument that you might as well order and enjoy the veal because it's dead anyway. Eating the veal perpetuates the suffering. Does using fish fertilizer do the same?

przcvctm

Neptune's Organic Fish products do NOT use menhaden. They, like the overwhelming majority of fish hydrolysate producers, use the scraps from fish processing operations after the fillets are removed.

The fish emulsion producers do in fact use menhaden as the source for their products [cite]

HTH

CC

 

[mad librettist]

Hey thanks for setting me straight CC. I had a bad piece of info... Just did some checking, and you are absolutely correct.

But now I'm back to square one. The fillet of a top predator (the fish people tend to eat) is the "light meat", while the flesh along the back, the dark part, is most the the fat and muscle, where nasties like like methyl mercury), PCB's, etc.. accumulate most. Some official publications advise against eating this part of a striped bass. I'm unsure about organs.

By using menhaden, vitamin companies avoid heavy metals. but eastern seaboard predators are exactly the ones to choose if you are trying to find man-made contamination..

I found this bit of misleading info on the neptune's harvest site:

Emulsions...
One type of fish (trash fish)
Emulsions are made from so-called "Trash Fish" (fish that Americans won't eat), usually Menhaden is used. Menhaden is caught in harbors and rivers on the coast and are exposed to coastal pollutants. Also, lake fish used could contain Mercury and PCB's.

ahem! menhaden is no "trash fish" (that's commercial fisherman talk), and further, menhaden and other species lower on the food chain "exposed to coastal pollutants" are forage fish for "non trash" fish. So guess which of the two will accumulate the most toxins? probably the one that ate up all the toxins all the other ones ate up by eating up the others.

so... I still need to find a new product that feeds both fungi and bacteria. Or maybe not. I don't know. Seems impossible to do right by yourself and the planet these days.

from wiki:

Menhaden have been called 'the most important fish in the sea'.[11] H. Bruce Franklin’s most recent book, The Most Important Fish in the Sea: Menhaden and America[12] is an interdisciplinary study of the role of menhaden in American environmental, economic, social, political, and cultural history from the seventeenth into the twenty-first centuries.
A significant issue regarding menhaden management is that many other fish prey on them, and the management of one affects the other. This is why scientists are working steadily to better understand the methods and technologies needed to migrate into ecosystem management, a scientific discipline recognized as important but as yet unrealized. Organizations managing the species continue to work on the understanding and management of menhaden and their predators.

from this site

How does methylmercury get into the fish?
Mercury is found in all fish. Bacteria convert elemental mercury into methylmercury through a process called biomethylation. Fish absorb this methylmercury through their gills and as they feed on aquatic organisms. The toxin biomagnifies as it moves up the food chain, and a little methylmercury can go a long way in an ecosystem. As larger fish eats little fish and as larger fish live longer, the problem exacerbates. Since methylmercury binds tightly to muscle tissue, it is in a fixed position. Cooking does not remove any appreciable amounts of the toxin. The further up you travel in the food chain, the higher the concentrations will be. Therefore, large predators (tuna, shark) will have higher levels than small predators.

Here's something from the california state government

OEHHA recommends that you clean and gut the fish you catch before cooking it. Some chemicals, including PCBs, build up in the organs, especially in the liver.
PCBs are stored mainly in the fat. So you can lower the amount of PCBs in fish by getting rid of the fat. You should trim the fat, remove the skin, and fillet the fish before cooking.
It is better not to use the fat, skin, organs, juices, (or whole fish) in soups or stews.
Fat is in the back and the belly and in the dark meat along the side of the fish.
When you remove the skin, you also remove a thin layer of fat under the skin.

thanks though CC, it's never doing someone a favor to let them walk around with bad info. It would be great if someone could find out which species they use in Mass. I dont know them all but i can think of striped bass, sea bass, macherel, bluefish, flounder, pollock, and offshore stuff. All predators.

 

[mad librettist]

Capt.Cheeze1

Here's a real mine field.


And then there's the manipulation of specific auxins (a group of specific plant hormones though not all plant hormones are 'auxins' as such - pretty complicated). Kelpak for example manipulates certain auxins to achieve specific PGRs (plant growth regulators) and KelpGrow manipulates other specific auxins.

I got an irate email from he who shall not be named (his initials are ganja din) over this post. Kelpac is his favorite.

Hey,

I just noticed CC is inferreing that auxins are not PGR (Plant Growth Regulators) and that is inaccurate; see this quote from CC: "Kelpak for example manipulates certain auxins to achieve specific PGRs (plant growth regulators)".

The point where CC is incorrect is that auxins such as indole acetic acid, indole butyric acid, etc. are PGRs, as is brassinolide, triacontanol, gibrerellic acid, etc. Of those, brassinolide and triacontanol are the best for cannabis yeild response and the ones I use, both as folair. The brassinosteriod (e.g. brassinolide) is important for photon reception and increases plant response to light, including increases in rate of photosynthesis; the triacontanol can increase flower yield a great deal, over 30% in many studies.

This is where I get my PGRs, but you need to order soon, the Canadian Gov. is shutting them down!

http://super-grow.biz/Products.jsp

HTH

 

[Cave Dweller]

Did I miss something or did everyone just talk circles around his plants problems?

 

[guest2012y]

Did I miss something or did everyone just talk circles around his plants problems?

From what I'm seeing that's pretty much what happens on a lot of threads......one minute you are talking about the topic,the next minute we are all on another trip. Usually someone brings it back around to topic....or they argue. I think,or hope that the guy takes in what everyone says and then does his own research to confirm or deny suggestions or opinions. PEACE

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Did I miss something or did everyone just talk circles around his plants problems?

I certainly did not.

Thanks for asking however!

CC

 

[KnightRueben]

Hey guys,

I think this was a great thread. Discussing the production methods of the various fish products in-depth was very applicable to the topic, where I had some fish emulsion that definitely was crap.

Anyway, I followed CC's advice and I also made a little stealth tea bubbler with a bucket/pump/airstone/tea holder. I've been feeding with an EWC tea (1/5 cup per gallon EWC, 1tbs. gal blackstrap molasses) bubbled for 36 hours and then the Neptunes Harvest Fish and Seaweed right before feeding.

Although the plant suffered MUCH damage due to the malnutrition, and it was very much harmed, it is now showing much new node growth. Things seem to be turning around finally and I think I'll be able to flower her soon. I will post a pic soon.

 

[mad librettist]

Awesome!

 

[Dr.GT]

so i decided to go this route (neptune's harvest complete line) recipe #5 in the organics for beginners thread. except the 5-1-1 is discontinued, so i plan to either use organic gem or maxicrop.
but am i gathering the correct info here that this method is crap? should i reconsider?

 

[KnightRueben]

Guys I can't believe I forgot to post that pic. Plant was chopped may 1 and total harvest was about 1.25 oz out of 2 gal of soil. Pretty amazing if you could have seen her at her worst days. 75% yellow, bare, droopy, looking at me with those sad leaves.

I've got about .25 ounces left. Here's a nugshot:


Turned out just fine. Incredible recovery.

 

[guest2012y]

Once again,thanks to (CC wherever he is) for tuning all us folks in to a better trip in organic gardening.

 

[NUG-JUG]

KnightReuben- Great job man!

I saw that first pic and it was hurtin forsure. . All you need is an open mind, and a willingness to change things up and Icmag will guide you the rest of the way.