LED to HID equivalence formula / rule of thumb?

[de145]

If I want to replace a given wattage of HPS (for example) with LED is there a rule of thumb or formula to help choose the LED light?

(I want to use LED to grow tropical sativas and the seed seller states minimum wattage of HPS to grow them and I'm trying to get a handle on what to look for in LED to meet that.)

 

[Smoking Gun]

There is no equivalency you can use as a guide. For one thing LED technology has improved vastly in the last couple years and the LED units now are far more powerful and effective than anything on the market a few years back. Plus each company sets its arrays up differently, meaning that a 300w unit from one company may not cover the same area as a unit from another company. My best suggestion is take your time and do A LOT of research on LED units. Some units to look into are Diamond Series and HydroGrow. The technology these companies use seems to be top of the line and cutting edge. I am not saying this out of direct experience but out of several months of research.

 

[siddhartha]

An important thing to look at as well is real wattage. Some company say they are 800 watts or 1000 watts, but when you look at the real wattage it is half.
http://www.compare-led-grow-lights.com/
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=222390
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=222674

Sidd

 

[Smoking Gun]

An important thing to look at as well is real wattage. Some company say they are 800 watts or 1000 watts, but when you look at the real wattage it is half.
http://www.compare-led-grow-lights.com/
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=222390
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=222674

Sidd

This brings up the point that you should also look at the specified wattage for each diode. Any unit that uses diodes rated less than 1w are not going to be effective units; many of the good units are using 3w diodes. As for real used watts, it is important to know what your real draw is, but usually the actual draw is less than the advertised draw. However this is not really a bad thing, the light companies just round up their wattage for simple notation, not to imply their units are using more energy. If you have counted on your unit using 800 watts and it is only using 750 watts you have some safety built in for your breakers, and you haven't lost any actual efficiency.

Another thing I have found in my research is the angle of the lens is also very important. A the more narrow the beam the more effective the unit. 90 degrees appears to be the widest desired beam spread, and some companies are working with diodes that have 60 degree lenses.

 

[rives]

While I agree with both of the above posters, a very rough guide for a quality LED fixture would be around +/- 60% of an HID. My Lumigrow ES330 is substantially better than a 400w, and a bit shy of a 600w in my experience. However, I haven't seen many fixtures that approach the quality/performance of the Lumigrow equipment.

 

[habeeb]

^ agree..

I've used alot of LED over some time.. UFO / panels / kessil / lumigrow / GLH / EVO


only one that has the top quality, is kessil, but there retarded in what customers want.. kessil is a offshoot company that's coming from a place that has $$$, but is using it all wrong, I hope they get there act together, as they could blowout the competition with there fit and finish of there products.. they feel like when you buy a sony product, it seems smooth , clean lines, nice finish, seems like quality.. there also very overpriced for what wattage you get.. maybe there offsetting R&D, but I'm not buying them till they learn we need white and to go bigger watts.

lumigrow I liked also, but way to loud for my tastes, need to fit some 120 mm fans instead of these small irritating fans.. also I have a feeling, they should have updated there LED's by now.. they've had the same design for years.. I would expect them to have improved there line by now.. thing I did like is there knowing to put white into the spectrum, which kessil does not.

 

[rives]

lumigrow I liked also, but way to loud for my tastes, need to fit some 120 mm fans instead of these small irritating fans.. also I have a feeling, they should have updated there LED's by now.. they've had the same design for years.. I would expect them to have improved there line by now.. thing I did like is there knowing to put white into the spectrum, which kessil does not.

Completely agree with the comment on the racket. Supposedly the newer ones are quieter, but I haven't been around the new version. I swapped my cooling fans out to the new models, and it helped a bit, but most of the noise on my version comes from the power supply fan, and it is a sealed unit. I would like to try the Lumibars with their passive cooling.

I would think that there would have to have been some changes in the LEDs over this time period (Osram, for instance, has obsoleted at least two lines of LEDs in this time period), but there is no way of knowing since they don't publish the spec on the LEDs. I do know that they work very well, though.

 

[de145]

Thanks everyone and sorry for the accidental double post originally but unfortunately I can't delete it.

 

[Keep goin]

If I want to replace a given wattage of HPS (for example) with LED is there a rule of thumb or formula to help choose the LED light?

I would agree with rives at 60% or even push that to 75 or 80%. Just do yourself a favor and go with multiple smaller units instead of one BIG panel.

 

[LeeROI]

Completely agree with the comment on the racket. Supposedly the newer ones are quieter, but I haven't been around the new version. I swapped my cooling fans out to the new models, and it helped a bit, but most of the noise on my version comes from the power supply fan, and it is a sealed unit. I would like to try the Lumibars with their passive cooling. . .

Looks like you still get a buzzy fan on the power supply--only the LEDs are passively cooled.

 

[PetFlora]

My experience is different than Rives in that I am getting what I consider ridiculous plant development using ~ 90 true watts.

Now it is for just one plant, but that one plant is way outperforming 3 plants under my 324w HOT5, using aquarium bulbs to simulate tighter led spectrums.

As to growing sats under leds, I suggest 4 small led fixtures; one on top and 3 on the sides ~ 1 ft lower than the top led, angled at ~ 60*s, OR, snap the main stalk and train it horizontally.

Take a look at my results so far. "I" am impressed, now that I supplemented the 90w ufo (R/B) with white leds; cool white, day light and warm white. To me (and many other advanced led growers), you have to have white to OPTIMIZE your results, though people like Weezard seem to quite happy without white.

If I did not already own the ufo, I would do a diy using only a combination of one watt whites- maybe 10% 660 on a separate o/o switch for late flower only. The one watts allow the lights to be closer to the plants. High watt leds have to be farther away from the plant and due to inverse square law, they are basically a waste

 

[Keep goin]

Some units to look into are Diamond Series and HydroGrow. The technology these companies use seems to be top of the line and cutting edge. I am not saying this out of direct experience but out of several months of research.

Not to "start" anything...but I agree with MOST of your post, especially about research!!

But I would invite you to continue your research. I was recently looking at the Diamond Series to fill in my canopy. Intriguing, but upon further research...ie: math...they are SEVERELY under driving their chips. 3w chips driven at about 1.5w!!?? WHAT!? That's just admitting that your heat management SUCKS! Heat management is a KEY feature!

HydroGrow Led also has problems with heat management...I have seen one of their units taken apart..horrible! Thin aluminum sheet. Not to mention the ridiculous drama surrounding the company/ owner. Look into it...I won't go into it here!

Bottom line...add up the number of chips + wattage of chips = total watts. Then find out watt usage AT THE PLUG...if it's WAY off (like the DS) run away...

To revisit the original question...I'm getting a lot closer to the belief of 1:1 ratio. I'm thinking I need 500w of LED to truly replace my 600w HPS.

To me it's all about the PAR, and heat management (of the room), not about saving electricity. (to me anyway) Lack of bulb replacement, etc...anyone seriously thinking about dropping HPS for LED knows all the reasoning.

I think the manufacturers think the electric savings is paramount to justify the initial outlay, I just don't agree! Hence the whole "90w replaces 400wHPS"! I think everyone knows that's nonsense now! (or they should)

I currently run the Lumigrow ES330 and feel that I need more smaller units surrounding it to truly "fill" my canopy out over a 3x3 tray.
But, great heat management and they fully drive their 5w chips! And in terms of noise...? I don't know about anyone else but between air pumps, water pumps, dehumidifier, circulating fans...I am not sure how you even hear the fans in the LED panel...??

Good Luck all...research, research, research...and buy enough LED's to completely cover your canopy and not be disappointed. The tech is great...it's expensive though, get over it! It will come down as time goes by.

My 2 cents.

 

[headband 707]

If I want to replace a given wattage of HPS (for example) with LED is there a rule of thumb or formula to help choose the LED light?

(I want to use LED to grow tropical sativas and the seed seller states minimum wattage of HPS to grow them and I'm trying to get a handle on what to look for in LED to meet that.)

If this was me lol..
I would do both LED's and HPS and yes there is a rule of thumb about the distance you keep your lights from the plants . I went to LEDcanada.com and they were the only ones that had a medical cannabis chart. I would try to get the LED's that equaled 1000watts. Then go for another 1000 watt HPS ontop of that.
If you want to go for the LED's alone they are great for trichome production and they make your nugs rock hard. Got to love rock hard buds lol.. I would definately get both headband 707

 

[Arthritis_sucks]

There is no equivalency you can use as a guide. For one thing LED technology has improved vastly in the last couple years and the LED units now are far more powerful and effective than anything on the market a few years back. Plus each company sets its arrays up differently, meaning that a 300w unit from one company may not cover the same area as a unit from another company. My best suggestion is take your time and do A LOT of research on LED units. Some units to look into are Diamond Series and HydroGrow. The technology these companies use seems to be top of the line and cutting edge. I am not saying this out of direct experience but out of several months of research.

I agree, with all the tech an the quality build of advanced led lights it makes them far superior than other leds out there. Plus the few members on here killin it with them helped push me to get one myself.

 

[cateros]

I would agree with rives at 60% or even push that to 75 or 80%. Just do yourself a favor and go with multiple smaller units instead of one BIG panel.

Personally I am going with 800w of led to replace my single 1k hid.

 

[cateros]

Not to "start" anything...but I agree with MOST of your post, especially about research!!

But I would invite you to continue your research. I was recently looking at the Diamond Series to fill in my canopy. Intriguing, but upon further research...ie: math...they are SEVERELY under driving their chips. 3w chips driven at about 1.5w!!?? WHAT!? That's just admitting that your heat management SUCKS! Heat management is a KEY feature!

HydroGrow Led also has problems with heat management...I have seen one of their units taken apart..horrible! Thin aluminum sheet. Not to mention the ridiculous drama surrounding the company/ owner. Look into it...I won't go into it here!

Bottom line...add up the number of chips + wattage of chips = total watts. Then find out watt usage AT THE PLUG...if it's WAY off (like the DS) run away...

To revisit the original question...I'm getting a lot closer to the belief of 1:1 ratio. I'm thinking I need 500w of LED to truly replace my 600w HPS.

To me it's all about the PAR, and heat management (of the room), not about saving electricity. (to me anyway) Lack of bulb replacement, etc...anyone seriously thinking about dropping HPS for LED knows all the reasoning.

I think the manufacturers think the electric savings is paramount to justify the initial outlay, I just don't agree! Hence the whole "90w replaces 400wHPS"! I think everyone knows that's nonsense now! (or they should)

I currently run the Lumigrow ES330 and feel that I need more smaller units surrounding it to truly "fill" my canopy out over a 3x3 tray.
But, great heat management and they fully drive their 5w chips! And in terms of noise...? I don't know about anyone else but between air pumps, water pumps, dehumidifier, circulating fans...I am not sure how you even hear the fans in the LED panel...??

Good Luck all...research, research, research...and buy enough LED's to completely cover your canopy and not be disappointed. The tech is great...it's expensive though, get over it! It will come down as time goes by.

My 2 cents. View Image

Actually under driving the led's is not about heat management its about increasing the life of the led's if you take a look on the market you wont find a single led manufacturer that puts 336 3w leds on a board and drives them at 100% generally most run there lights at 55-60% rating to give them the long life. I kinda think the only way your gonna be able to run 1000w of leds at max voltage would be to incorporate a liquid cooling system similar to whats in high end gaming cpu's.

 

[rives]

Actually under driving the led's is not about heat management its about increasing the life of the led's if you take a look on the market you wont find a single led manufacturer that puts 336 3w leds on a board and drives them at 100% generally most run there lights at 55-60% rating to give them the long life. I kinda think the only way your gonna be able to run 1000w of leds at max voltage would be to incorporate a liquid cooling system similar to whats in high end gaming cpu's.

I'd have to disagree. LED's are more efficient at lower drive current in that they give a higher light output per watt, but their lifespan is impacted by having their internal temperature go too high. You can overheat a lightly-driven LED with a poor heat-management system and shorten it's life, or you can overdrive an LED with a superior heat-management system and achieve it's rated life. I overdrive the LEDs in my Hybrid fixture by about 40% over the nominal value, and the heat sink immediately adjacent to the LED is about 10 degrees above ambient. As mentioned above someplace, Lumigrow drives their fixtures at full power.

 

[cateros]

I'd have to disagree. LED's are more efficient at lower drive current in that they give a higher light output per watt, but their lifespan is impacted by having their internal temperature go too high. You can overheat a lightly-driven LED with a poor heat-management system and shorten it's life, or you can overdrive an LED with a superior heat-management system and achieve it's rated life. I overdrive the LEDs in my Hybrid fixture by about 40% over the nominal value, and the heat sink immediately adjacent to the LED is about 10 degrees above ambient. As mentioned above someplace, Lumigrow drives their fixtures at full power.

True I misspoke what I was more meaning is for a manufacturer its in there best intrest to make sure the panels are not only cooled properly with decent heatsinks and fans but to make sure they don't have to replace to many parts under warranty they balance the Drive current to give excellent output but not driving them to hard and with decent cooling they are more assured of the product lasting the full warranty, its that old American theory of planned obsolescence , they want to it to last a certain length of time usually 1-2 years past the warranty and with proper care maybe longer but nobody makes a product to last forever what any company wants is decent performance and have the product last a bit longer then warranty so the consumer is happy and will be a repeat customer. So what I was getting at is the some companies do drive the led's at max but it seems to me most are only driving there led's around 50-55% of the rated output they could produce with more powerful powersupplies and light drivers. For instance The HGL 336X has 336 x watt diodes so If maxed out its over 1000w but they drive it at about 55% to give the diodes excellent performance and with decent heatsinks and fans they should last the full warranty without any major major breakdowns like every light engine going at once due to faulty power supplies or something.

 

[GP73LPC]

While I agree with both of the above posters, a very rough guide for a quality LED fixture would be around +/- 60% of an HID. My Lumigrow ES330 is substantially better than a 400w, and a bit shy of a 600w in my experience. However, I haven't seen many fixtures that approach the quality/performance of the Lumigrow equipment.

this

 

[oneshot]

2 Lumigrow Pro 650's in a 4x4? Hmmmm.....gives me an idea....