LED Lab 2009

[knna]

AFAIK, pigments and chloroplasts used to capture light from 610 to 680nm are the same. Differences in absortion are due to the higher or lower affinity to each wavelenght. As they are the same light capturing organs and pigments, i doubt using differents red wavelenghts does any difference in absortion. What matter is the total irradiance along the red spectrum. Im talking only about light absorbance/reflectance/transmitance.

Transmision from antenna pigments to the central Photosystem happen in femtoseconds. As pulsing in femtoseconds is way beyong our technical capabilities, i think pulsing will have little impact on absortion, while it has a negative impact on LEDs efficiency (due the on pulse current is higher).

Scientific studies about light pulsing has showed little improvement, and only for short pulses, always below 200microseconds, and generally for about 100microseconds pulses and lower. Other on pulse durations results on reduced photosynthetic efficacy. And for those shorter pulses that may result on a photosynthetic efficacy improvement, is the gain higher than the loss on LED efficiency? For the LEDs on sale currently, not (at least, if we take their nominal current in mind). Maybe on the future...

About alternating pulses of different wavelenghts, its a very interesting concept, but it seems difficult to configure a system to do it on a way very short light pulses gets sincronyzed to not light together.

 

[Weezard]

Hey, bud! Got a nansecond?

Hey, bud! Got a nansecond?

YES!!!!

I was thinking of pulsed light in multiple wavelenghs as well!
Let me know what you come up with, my head needs a break for a day or two.

Thanks Knna.
Make that 100 us pulses.
Synchronization is easy.
Just use the built in delay of a phototransistor to kick the next wavelength from the previous pulse.
Won't get down to femtosecs, but, nothin's perfect.
And I'm not lookin' for absolute efficacy either.
Li'l betta, be good enough to make me happy.
If no get even a li'l betta?
Fine, I learned sumpin'.
An end in itself.


A'ight BJJB.
'spect to see you here bright an early monday morning with 6 new ideas.:wink:
Or...
Off with his meds!

Weeze

 

[billyjojimbob11]

I agree Wez, only way to find out is to test.

This article is not directed at plants in particular but read about the efficiency of lasers particularly in their use of Microscopy. What interest me is molar extinction. I believe this is what I am reffering to. The maximum of one molecule to absorb light. This is one part that got my attention. Is it possible that this is what is happening when we see our leaves turn red from gray (when I have not excited a leaf beyond its molar extinction it appears grey or brown with red led, but more intensity it becomes red a slighlty darker or longer red wavelength than I am feeding it, then with more intensity its becomes same color a the led. This is dye saturation, Its saying basically it has all the cherry coolaid it can drink!
This apparently has been a problem with lasers for years.
I dont know if we are on to something, but we must cross this off the list of potential problems by testing. BTW, leaves and most green matter in general can absorb far more 660nm red than it can 625 before reaching molar extinction.

Anyways, I will end this night with some small but potent led fuel'd buds which reminds me that all is not lost. But before you become stones out of your mind please read...


http://www.olympusfluoview.com/theory/fluorophoresintro.html

"Because of the narrow and wavelength-restricted laser spectral lines employed to excite fluorophores in confocal microscopy (see Table 1), fluorescence emission intensity can be seriously restricted due to poor overlap of the excitation wavelengths with the fluorophore absorption band. In addition, the confocal pinhole aperture, which is critical in obtaining thin optical sections at high signal-to-noise ratios, is responsible for a 25 to 50 percent loss of emission intensity, regardless of how much effort has been expended on fine-tuning and alignment of the microscope optical system. Photomultiplier tubes are the most common detectors in confocal microscopy, but suffer from a quantum efficiency that varies as a function of wavelength (especially in the red and infrared regions), further contributing to a wavelength-dependent loss of signal across the emission spectrum. Collectively, the light losses in confocal microscopy can result in a reduction of intensity exceeding 50 times of the level typically observed in widefield fluorescence instruments. It should be clear from the preceding argument that fluorophore selection is one of the most critical aspects of confocal microscopy, and instrumental efficiency must be carefully considered, as well, in order to produce high quality images.
In confocal microscopy, irradiation of the fluorophores with a focused laser beam at high power densities increases the emission intensity up to the point of dye saturation, a condition whose parameters are dictated by the excited state lifetime. In the excited state, fluorophores are unable to absorb another incident photon until they emit a lower-energy photon through the fluorescence process. When the rate of fluorophore excitation exceeds the rate of emission decay, the molecules become saturated and the ground state population decreases. As a result, a majority of the laser energy passes through the specimen undiminished and does not contribute to fluorophore excitation. Balancing fluorophore saturation with laser light intensity levels is, therefore, a critical condition for achieving the optimal signal-to-noise ratio in confocal experiments."

 

[bf74]

heres my led grow

heres my led grow

pics. pics, pics I probably could've crammed another 12 plants, there were 7 just rooted clones-4 blueberry, 3 g13 durban poison

 

[Weezard]

Odd reflectance.

Odd reflectance.

Sweet snaps!
I'll have to print that and read it in the hot tub in the morning.

Meanwhile here's the reflected light from my 730nm. source.
Was a bear to get.
Camera didn't know what to do.

Regards,
Weeze

 

[bf74]

Hello weezard, thank you for the compliment. It is a pain getting decent pics, but when you do it's worth it. Cool pic, I've heard alot about black-lights lately, I'm going to have to dig a little deeper. This thread is a god-send. Thanx for the info. peace

 

[billyjojimbob11]

BF, fantastic huge colas, some of the fruitiest Ive seen! Can you describe your setup?
Thanks
BJJB

 

[bf74]

BF, fantastic huge colas, some of the fruitiest Ive seen! Can you describe your setup?
Thanks
BJJB

Thank you very much, this was truly a labor of love.Fascinated by the subject, I purchased 1- homebox xs , 1-90w tri-band spectrum ufo, 2- 45w red/blue panels 1-14w r/b panel, 1-ufo satellite system- covers 3" outside diameter of ufo- holding-7 5w 660nm red bulbs + 1 15w growspot. I also added 2 12w- 1 "pure" white- 1-warm white cree bulbs( 1w diodes) The strains were 4- dutch passion blue-berry clones, and 3 g13 durban clones. All were put into flowering as soon as rooted. I fed w/ half strength botanicare bloom, with the addition in mid-bloom, of Open Sesame-half strength once again. I loved this set-up, I didnt mind moving the bulbs around constantly. I didnt have to worry about the cubesdrying out on me.And I saved 50% on nutes.And I was happily suprised by the 3oz yield.For the grower with space and heat issues this is the way to go.The smoke was smooth and sweet. peace

 

[Weezard]

Nice!

Just checked out your albums.

You know what your doing.
Did your homework, Brah.
Taught me something.
I really appreciate that
Save this lazy buggah some work an' ya got a pal fo' life.:friends:
I've been vegging for weeks.
Let my girls get quite big before bloom time.
Top buds were good.

Got mostly "popcorn" from the lower branches.
Will be cutting some clones today!
Mahalo!

Weeze

 

[bf74]

High power Light Emitting Diode technology has improved tremendously in the past few months, in my opinion offering great potential for micro growers. Emitter luminous output and efficiency have near doubled since much of the LED posting around here, and likely will improve even more by the time current units reach the grow light market. Cost is dropping rapidly too. Any other DIY electronic types here building your own setups or considering it? Looking for serious discussion of LED growing, photosynthetic spectrum, optics, wiring, where to buy, etc.

To begin with, why do so many LED grows reportedly fall short of HPS or CFL? Several possible reasons come to mind:

* misunderstanding of lumens, PAR, radiant flux, mcd, etc. how much usable light are plants actually getting? marketing hype may vastly overstate it.

* photosynthetic action spectrum and LED wavelengths - what quality of light are plants getting? it seems that more experimentation is needed in this area for cannabis, including UV and IR effects.

* less efficient older LED's - comparing watts alone hardly tells actual light output.

* cost - grower may tend to use less light than if cost were not a factor.

Much to consider in designing a LED setup; power supply and drivers, what wavelengths and how much of each, thermal management, which manufacturers... anyway I plan to start one soon and welcome any input. LedEngin has high power 660 nm deep reds, apparently hard to find until now. Blue and royal blue K2's and such are widely available, as are whites. I like the idea of running a little white in the mix, since they have a blue peak to help keep internodes short in flower and also have a wide band elsewhere to cover accessory pigments' possible needs:

http://icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=187&pictureid=1044

Eye safety... most blue and white high power emitters come with a warning, but worth repeating here: do not stare directly into them... 'nuf said.

Going with almost all blue and royal blue for veg, not sure yet what ratio of blue to red and deep red for flower. And does UV really make a worthwhile difference in resin production? High power 400 nm are available cheap now, but somewhere I read that 320 nm UVB is what supposedly counts. Open to suggestions

I'm totally with you on the white led tech.I used 12-1w "pure" white cree diodes, and 12-1w warm white cree diodes, so 24 out of 220w led were white in my system,7 orange-the rest good ole red and blue.The ufo had the new tri-band spectrum.The blues were provided at a 3-1 ratio in the panels I had for side lighting.They were the standard 225 panels-45weach. But the whites were added last about week 3 of flower, and then-bang-things took off. Check out my gallery if you get a chance, I think in some of the earlier photos none of the white bulbs made it on site yet-you'll notice the difference in the color of the photos. As for uvb, I'm using that now in a hps/led/reptiglow uvb grow, I think theres something to this, Igot mad trichs at 3 weeks flower!But who knows I've also read that 660nm increases trich production, and I've certainly boosted that up for that grow.At least all the elements are there for a controlled experiment, eventually. Thanx for starting this thread, peace

 

[bf74]

Sweet snaps!
I'll have to print that and read it in the hot tub in the morning.

Meanwhile here's the reflected light from my 730nm. source.
Was a bear to get.
Camera didn't know what to do. View attachment 6401

Regards,
Weeze

whats up weeze? I was wondering if you were using one of those twist cfl blacklights. peace

 

[bf74]

Do not use the CFL "blacklights", they do not rely on heat to produce light and as a result produce little/none Far-Red....Use the incandescent ones made with wood's glass...the 'red' actually gets filtered out of these bulbs and their R/FR ratio is very high...That is if you want to adjust the R/FR ratios, most people say its all about the 'blue and red'...

They actually make all my black clothes appear deep deep red, a cool but useless fact that proves they produce FR, I'm guessing the cfl ones don't do that....

thank you, I was at home depot, in the bulb section of course, and the cfl caught my eye- pretty packaging gets me every time, thanks again for saving me from a bad purchase. peace

 

[Weezard]

Nope, I'm not that "green"

Nope, I'm not that "green"

whats up weeze? I was wondering if you were using one of those twist cfl blacklights. peace

Nope!
It's not the UV I'm after.
Plain old, garden variety, 60 Watt party light.
The incandescent B.L .puts out much more Far red, than UV.
The don't filter out the IR because the bulb already runs very hot.
The Far red is a by product.
We can barely see it, or it would get filtered out too.

Smoking Shogun published a graph a few posts back.

Regards
Weeze

 

[bf74]

Nope!
It's not the UV I'm after.
Plain old, garden variety, 60 Watt party light.
The incandescent B.L .puts out much more Far red, than UV.
The don't filter out the IR because the bulb already runs very hot.
The Far red is a by product.
We can barely see it, or it would get filtered out too.

Smoking Shogun published a graph a few posts back.

Regards
Weeze

Thank you, good stuff.I sure coulda used you guys around a few months back. You should see the cardboard box of impulsively purchased bulbs in my loft.

 

[deltronZER0]

hey guys, love the idea of growing with LEDs, but hve close to no experience wiring and no knowlege about LEDs and lighting for the most part
saw these:
http://www.growlight.cn/9W-grow-light.asp
and these
http://www.growforfree.co.uk/epages.../Shops/es108873_es120127304033/Products/StemM
do either of these look like quality units, specifically the first link
They would be supplementing a 400 watt hps in a grow cab. I was thinking getting some blue led grow lights would help keep my plants nick and stocky and squat

 

[bf74]

heres a link to get ya started- I did something similar to this guy with great result

heres a link to get ya started- I did something similar to this guy with great result

hey guys, love the idea of growing with LEDs, but hve close to no experience wiring and no knowlege about LEDs and lighting for the most part
saw these:
http://www.growlight.cn/9W-grow-light.asp
and these
http://www.growforfree.co.uk/epages.../Shops/es108873_es120127304033/Products/StemM
do either of these look like quality units, specifically the first link
They would be supplementing a 400 watt hps in a grow cab. I was thinking getting some blue led grow lights would help keep my plants nick and stocky and squat

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu6KrL...1ABC3A5EB637253DA/dokkie-s-led-test-grow.aspx

 

[bf74]

one more thing

one more thing

these ufo's can be bought cheap on e-bay, 200US shipping included. I got 2 on there and they work great. Check out my gallery for a couple examples. The bulbs you posted seem high quality, as cant attest to that as I've never used them. As long as you're hitting that 660nm mark, you should be fine. Contact the manufacturer and demand specs, have them e-mail them to you. You really have to watch these manufacturers. Upon closer inspection the first link you posted caught my interest, those bulbs look damn good, and they have the 1w diodes- good research

 

[bf74]

this guy is a genius check this link out

this guy is a genius check this link out

http://www.ledgrow.eu/

 

[bf74]

Nice!

Just checked out your albums.

You know what your doing.
Did your homework, Brah.
Taught me something.
I really appreciate that
Save this lazy buggah some work an' ya got a pal fo' life.:friends:
I've been vegging for weeks.
Let my girls get quite big before bloom time.
Top buds were good.
View attachment 6472
Got mostly "popcorn" from the lower branches.
Will be cutting some clones today!
Mahalo!

Weeze

You are a gentleman and a scholar, Mr Weeze, thank you for the kind words.And yes, just rooted clones are the way to go.The one thing I noticed about these leds, is that you end up with very little to no stem, and call me crazy but I noticed the bud -leaf ratio increased at least 2-fold. I hardly had enough leaf for a couple bowls of bubble. I'm going to post a few links- I truly can not take any credit for any of my success, I merely built on the work of men far more knowledgable than I. BTW- beautiful bud- the colors are amazing.

 

[bf74]

I got alot of knowledge out of this thread

I got alot of knowledge out of this thread

http://www.marijuanagrowing.eu/autos-led-cf-guide-led-home-build-leds-boost-trics-t28041-360.html