LED Lab 2009

[billyjojimbob11]

Ivy,

Tis what it says, only place I could find Q2 or Q5's
http://www.ledrise.com/product_info...EE-X-RE-Q5-LEDs--960lm--90--176---12-30V.html

But after looking at the retail site
http://www.leds.de/p511/LED_strips_...ine_Plus_warm_white_8_Cree_Q2_LEDs_960lm.html

Now after looking at them closer, I think they are Q2's. Shit! Oh well, hard to find them anyways, 90degrees, no lense needed they ship to US. Bought 2 of em. They also have red OSRAM's already on a strip unless you want to build your own.

I will also add some 5w 660 ledengins as well. This should cover the best leds for growing. We will see.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

 

[OperationIvy]

Q2, Q5

Q2, Q5

Ivy,

Tis what it says, only place I could find Q2 or Q5's
http://www.ledrise.com/product_info...EE-X-RE-Q5-LEDs--960lm--90--176---12-30V.html

But after looking at the retail site
http://www.leds.de/p511/LED_strips_...ine_Plus_warm_white_8_Cree_Q2_LEDs_960lm.html

Now after looking at them closer, I think they are Q2's. Shit! Oh well, hard to find them anyways, 90degrees, no lense needed they ship to US. Bought 2 of em. They also have red OSRAM's already on a strip unless you want to build your own.

I will also add some 5w 660 ledengins as well. This should cover the best leds for growing. We will see.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

So is www.ledrise.com false advertising? I visited the link and it does say Q5. Personally I was thinking of doing something similar to you by adding 660 LedEngins. With either the Q2s or the Q5s it looks like you are getting the luminous flux that is desirable but you are losing out on the color we're looking for. For example the Q2 Warm White has a CCT of 3500K vs the top bin P4 which runs at 3000K. As you move further towards the reds it seems that you also loose luminous flux. I don't know if I settle for the Q2s over the P4s. I would rather loose 7 flux lumens in exchange for a 500k shift in the right direction. *this pertains to a bloom array of course. I don't know if going with say a P2, which has an ideal color output, would be worth the sacrifice because it would be better to just compensate with some of those 660s. Basically I am making the case for the P4 009E7 bin if you can find it. Thoughts?

 

[OperationIvy]

I also have question about ordering LEDs. Say the company doesn't provide the exact bin and gives you a "short" datasheet for say a Cree XR-E P4 listing it with a CCT of 2600K-3700K. Now Cree's datasheet lists KIT NUMBERS within each Bin model, P4 Q2 P2 etc. etc.
Each kit number is labeled with a different CCT and these varying up to 600K. If I am going to sacrifice luminous flux to go with a P4 instead of a Q2 for example, I would want the correct kit number and corresponding CCT rating. Seems like the toughest part of building an array is knowing what you're getting from the distributors. Too bad we cant just order from Cree direct. KNNA if you see what I'm trying to get at here could you try to break it down?

 

[billyjojimbob11]

Yea, Im a little pissed about it. I know there are Q2's out there @2600k, from what I gather, they are hard to get, and colors vary even within the bin I guess.
I agree, but Cree will never sell direct to the pub. I'll keep searching, I know a guy on the flashlight forum had 2 2600k Q2, but a guy snatched them up both pretty quick.
Pleaze let me know if someone can locate some of these, usually they are on a star, and thats fine by me.

 

[knna]

Any product you buy already built giving the rating on K CCT always have some range of variation. Simply, no any manufacturer guarantee you a given color bin and flux bin, on bulk orders. So companies doing them try to use same bins for each lot of lamps, but usaully there are 4 color bins used for each color tone.

Often, LED manufacturers guarantee a tigher range of color bins than the full range of "Coolwhite", "Neutral White" and "Warm White". Generally, they guarantee a bin into a 4 grouped bins (together on the cromaticity diagram). Each tone (Coolwhite, WW, etc) has about 12 bins. Smaller groups of 4 bins cover about 300 (WW) to 600 K (CW). Really 300K is not too much. Tolerance of K rating of HIDs have a tolerance of about 150K.

Those bulk orders, for preproduction, gets the better prices. If you want a given bin, most distributors accept orders for exact flux and color bin. I can get almost any Cree bin being served, but always ordering full reels of 500 LEDs. Getting an exact flux and color bin implies a surplus cost, but not excessive. If people want i order a given flux and color bin avalaible (in production), i can get it. But I can only guarantee it in case i can order a full reel. So i would need to have confirmed enough people interested. In the case of the better bins for our application, i would order a full reel in any case, as surely they will be sold.

Anycase, Ivy, send me a message of what color and flux bins you are interested, and ill see if i can find it. Sometimes the distributor has a broken reel of that color and there is no need for a large order. For a generic code as the 009E7, there is no any problem.

Looking the Ledrise page, i think they say they use the higher bins avalaible. As the highest being served currently is Q5 in volume (higher R2 is avalaible in small amounts), they state it. But for Warm whites, highest bin being served is Q2, so for sure they arnt using WW Q5.

I stated previously that i prefer to use CW tones, of the lower K ratings. Im currently using color bin WG (5700-6350K) and WH (5000-5700K).Of course i dont see wrong at all to use WW. But Neutral Whites (3700-5300K) are already giving similar amounts of green and yellow and only a little less orange, while giving a larger blue peak. I would use Neutrals instead of WarmW. They are avalaible on Q3, and WW, on Q2. Respect to radiometric efficiency, both top bins are using the same top bin blue chip, and lm difference is more due to different LER of each spectrum than to one giving more light than the other.

I think that if you are going to use whites together with Reds, Neutrals are a more complete match than WW. You are going to lower the average K rating by adding red, easily to 2000K.

 

[OperationIvy]

Thanks KNNA,
That was pretty much what I was thinking myself. I started to drift towards the WWs but it just makes more sense to use the Neutrals. I feel that with the enhanced blue you have a better chance at keeping internodes tighter during flowering. It would be too difficult to get the warmer bin WWs anyways and even then I would still want to supplement them with some Deep Red. That being the case I think the neutrals white supplemented with the deeper reds would work great. You've pretty much just confirmed my hypothesis which is what I was looking for. I still dont belive that using the WWs with Reds would be a bad idea, I simply think that for me the NW w/Reds is better.

 

[OperationIvy]

something to keep an eye on...

something to keep an eye on...

http://www.sdk.co.jp/aa/english/news/2009/aanw_09_1048.html

Lets all keep our eyes on Japan as they are clearly one of the forerunners in commercial LED agriculture and also happen to be top producers of electronics as well.

 

[Weezard]

When is red not the red that they said?

When is red not the red that they said?

http://www.sdk.co.jp/aa/english/news/2009/aanw_09_1048.html

Lets all keep our eyes on Japan as they are clearly one of the forerunners in commercial LED agriculture and also happen to be top producers of electronics as well.

Must be a old stock photo second to last.
It's all about 660 nm. but that photo looks like 625 nm. to me.

Still, exciting news. And about time.

Thanks ,

Weezard

 

[billyjojimbob11]

Neutral whites are good, they work, i use them, but I was going for less green more (PUR). I got the Warm Whites today, boy they are bright, and they are very warm in color. Now I can test the yellow orange theory without buying a bunch of orange and yellow leds. I wonder also if I could get those ledengin in mostly 650, maybe they bin out the color variances. I will report back on the warm whites.

 

[Weezard]

Well, they do look fatter.

Well, they do look fatter.

Thanks, Shogun

I've been looking for that!

Update on the Fr.
Still hard to see any real difference.
And Wetware being what it is an eyeball guess won't do.

The camera is not emotionally involved.
So, I'll take some pics in 2 more weeks and compare them to last seasons pictures at the same age.

But, my "want this to work" impression is Yeeha!

Best
Weeze

 

[knna]

Its difficult to say what is lengthening the flowering period. I though it was due to low light levels or unbalanced 660/730nm light.

But people testing on the spanish forum using red, blue and yellow (590nm) without any far red are getting at least same flowering speed than under HPS (some are saying than still faster). They are using 630 and 660nm LEDs, but way more 660 than 630, so the explanation must be the yellow light. It seem it was the cause of the accelerated flowering speed, rather than far red.

Mix with CFLs, that gives out yellow light too, get same effect. So it seems the delayed flowering is due to the lack of yellow, and not to the lack of far red.

 

[Weezard]

let there be light, we'll soon get it right.

let there be light, we'll soon get it right.

Its difficult to say what is lengthening the flowering period. I though it was due to low light levels or unbalanced 660/730nm light.

But people testing on the spanish forum using red, blue and yellow (590nm) without any far red are getting at least same flowering speed than under HPS (some are saying than still faster). They are using 630 and 660nm LEDs, but way more 660 than 630, so the explanation must be the yellow light. It seem it was the cause of the accelerated flowering speed, rather than far red.
Mix with CFLs, that gives out yellow light too, get same effect. So it seems the delayed flowering is due to the lack of yellow, and not to the lack of far red.

Aloha Knna,

I did look into that, sort of.
Hung a large CFL between the 2 dichroic led lights on the last grow.
Wanted to see if it would give me some amber trichomes and/or fatter buds.
It was inconclusive.
That's why I'm fooling around with the Fr.
If the Fr experiment is as under-whelming as the cfl, my next experiment will be MORE POWER! Muahaha!.
I'm building a 150W array.
Deep red/Royal blue using 15W. leds.

I have more confidence in that than I do in wider spectrum.
When that grow is finished, I'll add some Fr and some white just because
I love to experiment.
Got a surplus of bud, so I can afford to futz around with it a bit.
My goal here is not "at least as good as HPS".
If I can't do "mo' betta", why bother?:smile:

I've learned plenty from your posts, my friend.
Mahalo fo' dat.
Now I need to turn some of that theory into fat, sticky buds.

I'd be very interested in seeing some of your personal results.

Regards,
Weezard

 

[knna]

Yeah, im very interested too on playing with far red effects. I want to build an smal cab (on a PC case) just to try crazy ideas and isolated wavelenghts.

Ive been very busy lately, but now im clearing out of work, ill start a journal soon. I hope in 2, 3 weeks.

Ive been joining info splitted on several sites and trying puntual wavelenghts, waiting for the moment LEDs become a cost effective solution. Now is that moment, so there is no excuse to start journaling LEDs grows with enough power. And my target is not be able to equal HIDs, but improve them. LEDs are able to grow plants way better!

Journals of the LEDs group buy are now starting on the spanish forum. But we arnt the only ones trying it, LEDs journals are becoming the mayority!

 

[billyjojimbob11]

To much of one narrow wavelengh will reflect off of the leaves like a mirror reducing absorbtion, hence spread the light out in multiple yellow orange red colors to reduce this effect.

 

[Weezard]

Say what?

Say what?

To much of one narrow wavelengh will reflect off of the leaves like a mirror reducing absorbtion, hence spread the light out in multiple yellow orange red colors to reduce this effect.

New one on me.
Where did you get that from?

Sorry son, that just sounds wrong.

Weezard

 

[billyjojimbob11]

New one on me.
Where did you get that from?

Sorry son, that just sounds wrong.

Weezard

Yea, maybe I should keep my findings to myself... It is from a light meter test I am doing, backed up with some previous findings. Once the green leaves absorb a certain amount of red, they reflect the remaining photons they are unable to absorb, back to the source, or opposite direction of the plant matter, scatter. etc. Has nothing to do with the actal plant itself, but more specifically the color of matter, and its flourescent properties. Green leaves can absorb a good amount of red light before they reflect the remaining energy, but they can absorb more blue than red. (possibly one reason for better success with blue leds in vegging).
A healthy green plant can absorb far more red than an unhealthy one (light green or yellow).
With green light, it takes very little light to send the rest back toward the source, or scatter it, heres a short study on this:
But plants reflect more IR than they do green! So a small amount to achieve the Emerson Effect and/or Pfr -> Pr in the dark period effect will do.

With leds, they emit light in a very narrow wavelengh as we all know by now, this is great to a certain extent, but the maximum absorbtion of light by matter is reached much faster with a narrow red spectrum than with a broad red spectrum wave pattern.
For example, if your fan leaves are bright red, then they are beyond absorbtion and have started reflection, thus dramatically reducing PAR efficiency
The thicker the leaves, the better rate of absorbtion before reflection. MJ fan leaves are generally thin, an oak leaf or say dark lettuce will have better success absorbing narrow wavelenghs than MJ due to a thicker mass. Those are the leaves that I tested.

My theory is to Diversify your red light as much as possible, try using at least 3 to 4 red wavelenghs to maximize absorbtion before reflection.
HPS has several red peaks, and most of them have lower (QE) than red leds, yet more success.

LED This plant is reflecting as much red as the reflective material!!!!!!!


Probably best to use 600-660 or closest to maximize (QE) before reflection.

I think the reason for lack of led success could be staring us right in our eyes, literally!

http://www.geografforlaget.dk/course/ENGLISH/basic/tele1.htm

Please....
Let us try to be helpful, and if you have an argument, dont be rude and just say:

"Sorry Son" (condescending), "that just sounds wrong" (no data or hypothesis to back yourself)
And I have yet to see any convincing results from using my red halogen at dark or from Sal, Mother or any of the Martian Method extrodinairs. 730 helps but its not the led answer, sorry....



http://www.geografforlaget.dk/course/ENGLISH/basic/tele1.htm
Its been fun posting here...
good luck

 

[Weezard]

Now, we're gettin' somewhere

Now, we're gettin' somewhere

That's much better.:smile:

We're all friends here, brah.
I don't want your goat.
I just want usefull information.

As for my first response?
I just replied in kind.
"(no data or hypothesis to back yourself)"

It was not meant to be condescending. I just forgot the smilie.
Sorry you took it that way

Now that you have cited a source.
I'm much more likely to make a reasoned response.

Those are interesting graphs.
But, they are from Landsat, Yah?
Through miles of atmosphere and reading reflectance from above.

I'm sure you are aware that new leaf in a trees crown are often colored red to protect them from too much long wave absorbtion.
As they mature the red fades and they absorb more red, Fr, and IR without suffering cell damage.
They need to do that because they will be receiving less light as the newer leaves shade them.

You may also be aware of the mechanism that the older leaves use to cope with too much light.
But let's throw it out there for the folks that don't.

Here in the tropics, full sun at mid day, can exceed 90k Lux.
Most all plants stop growing at around 90k Lux.
With long exposures, the rather flat cells that absorb light will turn
their edges to the light to absorb less, like a roll of quarters, and this causes the leaves to thicken.
In low light situations and latitudes the cells will lay flatter to absorb more light.This makes the leaves physically thinner.
I find that fascinating.
It also interests me that plants will convert less usable spectra to exactly what they do need.
It is my opinion that the conversion is not free.
There is probably an efficiency hit.

Again, sorry I caught you the wrong way.
But, If you just drop a bomb like that with nothing to back it up, I'll prolly do it again.

Peace,
Weeze

 

[billyjojimbob11]

We are merely paddling the same boat, last 2 years, trying to figure this thing out, I been treated below how I treat my fellow brothers (the HID anti led growers), I guess I am on the defensive slightly, no harm, and I certainly respect your views, because there is only one truth, and I am out to find it if you dont, not because I care who finds it, but because I want the answer.

As far as cells turning after long exposures, this is something I will have to study, and is very interesting, you are referring to the thylakoid, right?
What I am saying is our light is quickly fluorescing the outer membrane, before it can be absorbed by the thylakoid level.
I believe what you are saying that happens in HI is the thylakoid is being overexposed and thickens up right?
Thank you for this information as my education continues.

I can only assume, that we are just throwing away most of our light as it never even makes it to the thylakoid level! By us over saturating a narrow (or far more narrow than natural PAR light) beam at a colored object (the outer membrane) we will reduce our absorbtion efficiency long before the plant has a chance to accept or reject it in the thylakoid, because the fucking outer membrane is cock blocking us! . What happens, is the matter wont absorb any more of that narrow wavelengh, it fluoresces at color we give it and rejects or reflects the light and scatters it about at a slighlty longer wavelength, never even giving the plant cells a chance to absorb it and convert the light into energy and send it down the electron-transport chain. This is a drawback to using narrow wavelenghts.

 

[Weezard]

So welcome aboard?

So welcome aboard?

We are merely paddling the same boat, last 2 years, trying to figure this thing out, I been treated below how I treat my fellow brothers (the HID anti led growers), I guess I am on the defensive slightly, no harm, and I certainly respect your views, because there is only one truth, and I am out to find it if you dont, not because I care who finds it, but because I want the answer.

As far as cells turning after long exposures, this is something I will have to study, and is very interesting, you are referring to the thylakoid, right?

Re-freakin' zackly!!

Finally, someone who knows the language.
Been lookin' for you, brah.
Most folks fade when ya say chloroplast.
Get the least bit technical and you can see their eyes glaze.

Ok!
(for all you glazers, if you want to follow along in your study guides, here's the simplest explanation of photosynthesis I could find.)
http://www.ftexploring.com/photosyn/chloroplast.html

What I am saying is our light is quickly fluorescing the outer membrane, before it can be absorbed by the thylakoid level.


You make a good point.
But may be missing something here
The appearant flourescence is actually a conversion mechanism and it is not persistant.
That, and the converted light radiates inward as well as outward
Yes, under strong light it is constant, but NOT persistant.
If you pulse the granum, the wheels are put in motion.
If you follow the pulse with a "dark" period the outer membrane recovers, as the Hydrogen ions and free electrons
"do their thing" from the last pulse.
So theoretically, we can save energy and beat the saturation and blocking problem by pulsing the light.
This happens naturally, all the time under the canopy.
as upper leaves stir in the wind, sun flecks flash across the leaf surfaces and "pump the machine".
In between these "flecks" of light the outer membrane recovers and passes the next pulse.
That is why I'm building a higher power array.
I can get 120k Lux at 3" with these 15W. leds in a steady state running at 1.1 amps.
Impressive enought with white light, massive overkill with dichroics.

My concern here, is one wavelength in a steady state, (say, 625nm.) will also block a steady state 660 nm.!

The beauty of leds is their rise time.
When pulsed, at a 10% duty cycle, these ledengines will accept 2 amps!
I can hit the outer membrane with intense monochromatic energy for say 1 ms., let it settle down a bit and hit it again.

Now, you've got me thinking that the next pulse will be even more effective if it is a different wavelength!
Got me thinkin', brah.

I believe what you are saying that happens in HI is the thylakoid is being overexposed and thickens up right?

Absolutely! Provable fact!

Thank you for this information as my education continues.

No worries mate, I'm just tickled to find someone who knows what I'm on about.

I can only assume, that we are just throwing away most of our light as it never even makes it to the thylakoid level! By us over saturating a narrow (or far more narrow than natural PAR light) beam at a colored object (the outer membrane) we will reduce our absorbtion efficiency long before the plant has a chance to accept or reject it in the thylakoid, because the fucking outer membrane is cock blocking us! . What happens, is the matter wont absorb any more of that narrow wavelengh, it fluoresces at color we give it and rejects or reflects the light and scatters it about at a slighlty longer wavelength, never even giving the plant cells a chance to absorb it and convert the light into energy and send it down the electron-transport chain. This is a drawback to using narrow wavelenghts.

If that assumption floats, it does not have to be a drawback.
Sometimes chaos=opportunity.
I'll send you a photo of the odd red flourescence I get with the black light, as it does seem to support your theory.
So, if we posit that your take on this is correct.
We just need to capitalize, or work-around.

What we need to know now, is how fast the outer membrane reacts and how long it takes to "recover, yah?
Damn! now I gotta do more research.

There'll be no sleeping here tonight.

Mahalo,
Wee Zard

 

[billyjojimbob11]

YES!!!!

I was thinking of pulsed light in multiple wavelenghs as well!
Let me know what you come up with, my head needs a break for a day or two.