Landraces . Will we ever smoke what we once had? If no is there a Way back?

[White Beard]

Nice one, Revver!

Worth mentioning / remembering that the British introduced cannabis cultivation early in their occupation of the to-be USA - much earlier than the 1920s - and likely did so throughout their world conquest

 

[TychoMonolyth]

On that note... are there *any North America Landraces? I mean Quebec city is 500 years old for god's sake.

 

[White Beard]

Reports of feral cannabis in Kentucky petered out back in the 80s...there may still be some, but no one is talking. If we’re talking about cultivated or semi-cultivated strains (per the conversation so far) I’d venture to guess that there are none.

 

[Mengsk]

White Beard thank you for remaining agreeable. And for using indica sativa and ruderalis instead of saying those names should be changed. When you refer to hippies and dope smokers I become weary or suspicious about being taken advantage of. I just mean in the general sense - is this someone who believes in the value of the plant, as I do, or is this someone who sees yet another resource which can be exploited. I share your idea, it is possible that being underground drove genetic supply pools in awkward directions.

You could even say the police driven extermination of the plant created the mutant varieties we have today. Too much emphasis in my opinion continuing all of these - post-CAMP post-criminalization post-police raids on warehouse grows underground with generators and lights - strains or genetic varieties. It is unwise or serves the same purpose (bred for weight and harvest time, furthermore prioritizing these two numbers and ignoring all else) to promote the heavily bottlenecked and short flowering high yielding plant, as the only variety to be grown commercially. The same thing is starting to happen where the corporate weed or budweiser or phillip morris I would not be surprised this is the same money rather I should say miracle gro. Has their plan to grow one strain only. And it is the most heavily modified - what old school enthusiast would call garbage, like a mutt that has lots of diseases and problems from human intervention - strain for monocrop. Monocrop has always been the enemy for several reasons which is a strong word but it seems more and more appropriate.

A market meaning people who rush to supply a need (like bud light and frat parties) really does not care about much of what is being discussed here. Really it runs counter to their agenda to promote cannabis as healthy medicine which in fact should be regulated for carbon output and energy usage and environmental damage instead of the sham tax racket taking the place of greedy shady lowlife dealers we have now. The rec model resembles a liquor store or corner store, more than relating to health or wellness or pharmacy, medicine etc. That is an approach, an angle, planned premeditated even. To leverage capitalize exploit. Because if people are addicted or want or need something (a plant, a drug, food, water, anything) and you make all supply and distribution illegal, except for your one overpriced monocrop, explain the exact difference between taxes and handcuffs etc. Selling $15 candies to children. Not the same as treating the plant more or less as good for you and who needs it gets it $3 brownies or whatever the case may be. Totally different scenarios, that likely can eoexist once people see if or where or how much of each kind of market may exist.

I am frequently inspired to go off on tangents. For example a tunnel vision group of stubborn people can hire lemmings or convince one another to charge ahead (likely amped up on caffeine or amphetamines with higher blood pressure and heart rate) to the detriment of all around them. This would be, I did not ask for a group of 1000 people ramped up on drugs and caffeine to tear up the side of the mountain and push themselves physically to plant large greenhouse monocrops. However I don't feel particularly positioned or morally justified arguing against all of that entirely categorically by definition. The people making money from that (hire amped up workers to kill themselves building a greenhouse, then sell the monocrop which may or may not be poison and harmful for human consumption, to naive people or for a large markup or out of state, likely all three) are again not interested in human health or civil rights or equality because they are in fact working against it. You can connect the dots and see that hospitals meaning the fda are in on it. Not in a good way. So then you start looking around where are all of the jobs etc. And it's all connected, retail sales model like the new pack of cigarettes and the medical health care system in our country is absolutely corrupted. No need for comparison to another country, the US health care system is completely full of fraud. The only number that makes as much sense as health care dollars is real estate dollars. So we are back to kicking people out and evicting them, now what is going to happen with fire victims in California. Is the Oakland dispensary going to advertise more cowboy friendly strains as long as you pay $3k/month rent for the new waterfront condos being built? While wildfire victims are told that they are now too poor to live in California because they are being displaced?

There is only so much subject material for one topic. Re: N. American landraces, Native Americans according to census are 1.6% of the population. Were you to ask that population as a group, you would find as a people they (meaning the group, Native Americans) have been through tough times. Who is to say, is there anyone to say what happened with Native Americans or is it too dark or scary to get into? Following such a history, the pretense or the idea that you would even be able to ask such a person for their recollection of landrace cannabis is not appropriate. How are you supposed to ask a victim for their side of the story. It goes back to personal opinion vs science. As much as you might want things to sound "factual" or devoid of personal influence it is always a personal story.

 

[TychoMonolyth]

Reports of feral cannabis in Kentucky petered out back in the 80s...there may still be some, but no one is talking. If we’re talking about cultivated or semi-cultivated strains (per the conversation so far) I’d venture to guess that there are none.

Sad. I sure would like to know what strain Abe Lincoln smoked on his porch.

 

[beta]

Sad. I sure would like to know what strain Abe Lincoln smoked on his porch.

There's no good evidence that the quote attributed to Lincoln regarding smoking hemp on his porch was actually something he ever said.

http://wafflesatnoon.com/lincoln-hemp-quote/

 

[Elmer Bud]

HAHAHAHAHAHA The CBD lobby is here!

All this about CBD is really laughable.

In most countries, hemp growing is legal. Hemp produces mainly CBD, that is the reason why nobody wanted to smoke industrial hemp. CBD makes you feel dumb. It is not funny.

Anyway if you still want CBD for any reason, don't waste your money and don't buy expensive CBD oil from all these snake oil scammers. You can get CBD from ditchweed. That is the reason why it is called ditchweed and no fine 1st grade marijuana, hahahahaha

Also they grow hemp in Canada, and they must produce CBD oil from it at a decent price. Unless they have become snake oil scammers entrepreneurs too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPYUNpbS1JM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUs--6DAlaA

G `day AH

Its not the joke you think it is .
I tried a high potency CBD plant in Barcelona . It hit hard . Fully relaxed my body in about 2 minutes . Clear head .
Came on in a wave that moved from my shoulders to my toes .

Now hemp might have 1% CBD . The plant I tried was in the teen percentages .

Old school hash from Lebanon / Morocco / Afghanistan all have cbd in the mix and it affects the high the hash gives .
Slower to come on and lasts longer . Also anti psychotic .

I remember a thread at Mr Nice about a trip to feral hemp field in Czechoslovakia . They collected buds made bubble hash . Now one guy had spasticity in his legs . He said the bubble gave him relief from the muscle spasms .

Just to be clear I disagree with the fool above who said THC is addictive .

But putting CBD down and saying its useless is also wrong .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[therevverend]

likely amped up on caffeine

Yeah those hippies and their coffee and hash bong hits in the morning. Killing themselves.

a group of 1000 people ramped up on drugs and caffeine to tear up the side of the mountain and push themselves physically to plant large greenhouse monocrops. However I don't feel particularly positioned or morally justified arguing against all of that entirely categorically by definition. The people making money from that (hire amped up workers to kill themselves building a greenhouse, then sell the monocrop which may or may not be poison and harmful for human consumption, to naive people or for a large markup or out of state, likely all three) are again not interested in human health or civil rights or equality because they are in fact working against it.

What are you on dude? 1000s of people ripping apart mountains to build huge greenhouse MONOCROPS? All wigged out on coffee and dope! Just killing themselves.
May or may not be poisonous? This is a lie cannabis there is no may or may not. Cannabis is not poisonous. You sir are full of shit!

 

[Treevly]

Moroccan hash strains have changed altogether this century. In hippie days, Moroccan hash was 8% THC, now it is double that. The news trains are hybrids, and they are grown with new methods, such as single holes for each plant. There may be some old landrace strains in the outback in some farmers plot, or in the wild, but the vast majority of growers - and any serious ones - have changed their strains and methods to produce product for the THC-hungry European market.

https://dopemagazine.com/morocco-part-ii/
https://cannabisnow.com/new-moroccan-hashish/

 

[Mengsk]

Cannabis is not poisonous. But one could grow it in the most poisonous way possible, theoretically. That is what big weed claims to protect people from (i.e. paraquat or Eagle 20). But many of us are suspicious of big weed for the very same reason. We may have seen illegal grows where guerrillas have bags of fertilizer and pesticide and trash littered about. I see many commercial grows as somewhere in between responsible sustainable family friendly operations and garbage dumps. Garbage dump meaning the environment is treated like a chemical waste facility where you set up your grow shop supplies with little containers and drain to waste. It's all a matter of perspective. To the person who sets up 1000 containers and 2000 drip lines and plants 1000 clones, they might not see it the same way, in fact they might be quite proud of their work. From where I sit it looks like construction workers setting up warehouse grows not growers or smokers or connoisseurs (no disrespect to long time cannabis farmers) and real estate developers and investors racing. None of that has anything to do with quality cannabis or landrace strains, which is my point. The whole cannabis industry is anti- [I'll just use the word consumer, because this ball of wax is getting complicated].

Kevin Jodrey has a skunk project. I do not know the man personally but the results speak for themselves and I feel a fairly representative farmer/owner/leader with respect to views and thoughts on cultivation. He has a theory about OG Kush prevalence relating to opioid use and dependence. What I take it to mean is that society in modern times is looking for a "downer," either that or that is what pharma and big weed are pushing. The kind of weed that is electric, or stimulant, like amphetamine, is not being grown now.

Remember skunk weed? For me the year wasn't '81 but I remember getting the occasional batch of skunk. With skunk you would not be able to enter a room, even with one joint's worth or 1/2 a gram inside two plastic baggies, without everyone immediately knowing distinctly what it is you are carrying. Nobody really likes the actual smell of a skunk, at least I don't think so, but skunk weed smells very good and sweet at the same time. Super strong stuff from what I remember. I was in California so whether it is the same or related to "Road Kill Skunk" I am not sure. Nowadays "loud" has become popular in rap songs and slang meaning potent or strong smelling bud. I'm not that old and it wasn't that long ago when you could find real skunk. That was "loud."

 

[therevverend]

Not sure why that guy chose this thread to rant about how evil all us cannabis growers and users are but it'd be nice to get back on topic. I do feel bad for people in rehab and on probation who get all that bullshit crammed in their heads.

Reports of feral cannabis in Kentucky petered out back in the 80s.

Maybe because the cultivated cannabis far surpassed the feral cannabis at that point? Feral cannabis is alive and well in Minnesota.
http://www.citypages.com/news/wild-marijuana-is-flourishing-throughout-the-twin-cities/390733791

I used to think it'd be cool to live in an area with feral cannabis. Now I realize all it'd do is fuck up my good stuff. No THC, maybe a bit of CBD you'd have to extract to get in decent concentrations.

Following the Spanish and British Empires around the world is a good way to follow the spread of cannabis. The Spanish spread it to Chile, Argentina, Mexico, California, Cuba, Philippines, and elsewhere. In Spain itself the Muslims and Christians were using hemp to make their crossbow strings and cloth. Textile remains go back to the Copper Age, 3000-2200 BCE!

Hemp string and fabric has been found in Scotland from 2800 years ago. Britain was a big producer of hemp for the Romans. Producing sails and rope for their navy. Cannabis seeds 1600 years old were found in a Roman well near York. They've found quite a few cannabis seed stashes all over Britain dating from Roman times to the middle ages. Probably utilized for seed and oil production.

Historical records show that the center of traditional English hemp industry was SE Engalnd. In some areas of England hemp production increased because it was more valuable as a fiber then food crops. Until relatively modern times about 15% of all cultivated areas in the Waveney Valley located on the border of Norfolk and Suffolk counties was devoted to hemp. There's your Monocrop baby!

Hemp was used in medieval English weapons. Longbow strings, which were crucial for the success of the English army in the 100 Years War, were strung with hemp fiber. It's strength and durability was key to increasing the power and range of the weapon. A number of old bows in British museums are strung with hemp.

British dominance on the high sea was supported by their ample hemp crops. Shakespeare references hemp in a song in 'Midsummer Night's Dream. King Henry VIII and Queen Elizabeth passed laws enforcing the planting of hemp. Most of the hemp seed sold in England came from her buddy, Lawrence Cockson, the Monsanto of his day. Cockson made a ton of money from the queen's hemp growing laws. By this point there was so much hemp growing the price crashed and farmers wanted to grow other crops.

This has gotten really long it was originally going to be about hemp growing in America. I'll save it for another big post next time. A spoiler: the British attempted to grow hemp in Jamaica but it failed! So Jamaican ganja is not descended from British hemp. My guess is that the temperate British strains failed in the warm humid Jamaican climate.

 

[therevverend]

Nobody really likes the actual smell of a skunk

I do. A tame skunk showed up at our door when I was a kid and it lived with us for a few months until we took it to the animal shelter. Lived in the garage and ate cat food. It didn't have it's stink removed, my clumsy stepdad was always close to stepping on it and getting sprayed. It's living area smelled skunky but not like the spray which is horribly strong and acrid. Skunks are clean animals, it shit in one place and was quite clever. When I drive by a skunk roadkill I kind of like it as long as it isn't super strong and nasty.

 

[therevverend]

Kevin Jodrey has a skunk project. I do not know the man personally but the results speak for themselves and I feel a fairly representative farmer/owner/leader with respect to views and thoughts on cultivation. He has a theory about OG Kush prevalence relating to opioid use and dependence. What I take it to mean is that society in modern times is looking for a "downer," either that or that is what pharma and big weed are pushing. The kind of weed that is electric, or stimulant, like amphetamine, is not being grown now.

So your pet theory is that the cannabis that people grow is bad because Kevin Jodrey says OG Kush is popular with junkies. And no one is growing speedy amphetamine like cannabis. What does this have to do with landraces? Please keep this thread on topic maybe read the title first before you post. Or you can start your own thread about the stuff you're interested in.

 

[Mengsk]

Treevly, yeah that's getting back on topic I think. In very general terms you could group cannabis broadly I won't say drug cultivar or hemp, but maybe Kush and hybrids meaning short, fast, resinous, close node spacing, wide leaves and tropical sativa or tall fluffy long flowering. For pretty obvious reasons, Kush hybrids are popular because the plants finish fast. This works in climates where tropical sativas would not complete a normal life cycle. Durban Poison or the S. African landrace seems to be a "fast" sativa. So here we have prevalence of a "fast" sativa (Dutch influenced?) hybridized with Kush indicas. When breeders refer to mold resistance with cannabis I believe it is often a compromise where they are really referring to bulking and weight while not being affected too heavily by mold. "Northern" climates like a lot of Europe or the US are too cold to be tropical and too wet to be desert but they make up a sizable portion of the cannabis trade. It makes sense that hybrids perform well, especially compared to "landrace." The same issue faces us now as before - if breeders growers big weed continue to push the "new" hybrids will we ever smoke what we once had? Commercial operations have no problem controlling the climate in expensive greenhouses or sealed grow rooms. But that must be subsidized. There is no way that growing landrace genetics will yield the same amount of resin per room per month as wedding cake clones or kush etc. Even if the resin is of an opioid quality and has no cerebral stimulation value. This is a stretch but if one strain is cerebrally stimulating and another strain is a sleeping pill then it is the intellectual, psychological, motivational aspect I take issue with. In other words I do not care about your crop yield (even if it is very important to you for sustaining production and your bottom line). That sounds harsh but I am saying my criteria as a user is uplifting high. If I don't find that uplifting high then I do not want the cannabis for any price. This market has 100% sleeping pill weed, or kush indica, heavy couch lock stone. Just because tropical weed won't grow in Oregon is no a good enough excuse to sell 100% sleeping pill Kush hybrids.


Grow cannabis in thailand outdoor thai by: w.o.wweed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRxPC2eZPBI

 

[therevverend]

Man I hate going off topic with this shit but there's something about cranks and trolls I can't resist sometimes.

So Jodrey says people that have opiate abuse issues are using OG Kush. Because it's a psychedelic, it helps them deal with the withdrawals, mind crushing depression, anxiety, loneliness, and cravings. This is why ibogaine is used in opiate treatment, why MDMA, mushrooms, and other psychedelics show quite a bit of potential to help opiate addicts. They are anti-depressants and help people combat the fear and negativity that are so hard to overcome when you quit dope.

You twist that around and say that OG Kush is the same thing as heroin, that they use it because it has the same pain killing addictive effects. That it makes them nod out and jones like crazy for. I think you are twisting Jodrey's words, using his popularity and authority to push your own crank ideas. I think that's fucked up.

Then you say that ALL cannabis people everywhere grow is the same as OG Kush. OG Kush is a sativa dominate hybrid with psychedelic middle of the ground type effects. I wouldn't call it couch lock but you'll sleep well after smoking it. I know because I've cultivated it and it's relatives for many years. It's got it's own pleasant effects but it's very different then the hazes people are growing and the Indicas.

So I'm saying there's no way in hell 'all strains are like OG Kush'. Ace seeds has dozens of tropical narrow leaf dominate strains that are very popular. I grew several hashplants next year that will kick your ass, right next to a sativa dominate plant and an Indica dominate plant. They were all very different, in growth and effects.

You're saying it's bad that people are growing what you call monocrops. Planting maybe a half acre or acre of cannabis? Not sure how that's destructive but all the food you eat is grown in much larger areas. An apple orchard is a 'monocrop' of apple trees, usually a dozen or more acres. If you eat fruit or nuts or potatoes it's coming from several planted acres of 'monocrop'.

Then you can talk about truly destructive farming, factory farming, where someone grows thousands of acres of one crop. This is where most of our food comes from whether we like it or not. To grow even a thousand pounds of cannabis in a monocrop isn't more then an acre or two. it's in no way comparable.

 

[Mengsk]

So your pet theory is that the cannabis that people grow is bad because Kevin Jodrey says OG Kush is popular with junkies. And no one is growing speedy amphetamine like cannabis. What does this have to do with landraces? Please keep this thread on topic maybe read the title first before you post. Or you can start your own thread about the stuff you're interested in.

It doesn't sound like we are seeing 100% eye to eye at the moment but yeah you pretty much nailed it on the head. When I vape skunk extract I feel like doing something. This is what I am referring to as sativa landrace even though that isn't totally accurate. It would be more of a sativa hybrid, since in California they have to finish earlier than in Colombia or equatorial Africa. It gets carried away pretty easily but we have alcoholism and opioid addiction in the US. If we had 3% obesity instead of 30% obesity including prenatal and newborn, or if we had 5-10% farmer population instead of 0.0001% farmer population, or hours of television per week beers consumed and so on, then maybe people would be looking for different stains of cannabis. Chicken or the egg problem here, supply and demand, I would buy sativa if they had it cheap enough but they do not grow it. So are people lazy because of sleepy weed or are the people lazy first and want sleepy weed. Does energetic weed provoke people to engage in more physical activity in essence healing them of their lethargy, or does a person need to want to be active first for energetic weed to suit them?

Some pot is more like a stimulant and some is more like a depressant. That plays a key part in this discussion in my opinion. All pot available now is in the depressant category. I am not saying that all Kush indica is depressing and sleepy in nature but on average or as a whole yes that is exactly the point. Tall long sativas with no short early dense bud influence are necessary in order to test the effects.

If some weed is electric or cerebral and long lasting then some weed might be dull or numb and short lasting. I do not want to use the term addictive when referring to marijuana but you can be 100% assured that if there is a way to make addictive or short lived weed then big weed like alcohol and tobacco companies are going for it. Once again the model of strong narcotic fast turnaround, like crack or heroin. I am not saying weed is like this but if it is then I imagine that is the variety tobacco companies and financial investors will produce. It's pretty difficult to objectively assess one person's view or opinion or perception. Just recently the rev said I was full of it. So it's not very credible, even to me really, if I say that my bag of kush weed is not so great because I just roll one and get stoned and feel like taking a nap over and over. Whereas sativa meaning actual sativa weed especially in concentrate or vape form (no combustion) might as well be coffee or amphetamine, not that I am familiar.

Vaping is another topic of discussion that big weed doesn't want to address. Because you get a lot more benefit meaning the same product lasts longer and gives a better high, when you avoid combustion completely. Distillate or recreational concentrates only confuse matters because they have flooded markets with questionable products made using unknown plant material processed with hydrocarbons. Maybe ok to use and decent effect but not an apples to apples comparison with hashish. Smoking as in rolling a joint is hands down the most harmful and wasteful way to use cannabis despite the popular idea that nothing compares to smoking or addicted habit of smoking etc. It isn't really an argument for the landrace thread but if switching from rolling papers to a vaporizer reduces consumption significantly while increasing quality of experience then it is a financial or consumption issue for producers. You wouldn't necessarily call someone evil for selling joints even if a single joint can last like three vape sessions or all day for an average person. They aren't necessarily going to promote vaping if it reduces their sales.

 

[White Beard]

Mengsk, this sounds like topics for a general fireside pipe-passing, and I’m down for that and I’ll meet you there.

This all has a ton of technicalese to it, tho, and we’re still practicing our ability to understand the way we use words together. We might all agree, but we’re sorting thru language, so you might not get heard as plainly as you would in a different conversation.

Don’t hold it against us, k?

 

[Mengsk]

therev you are a history buff! In that case I won't argue. I find history fascinating also. I am more of the belief that the first person alive was cultivating cannabis like Humulus. Like prometheus or something, the first person ever was probably breeding some dank herbs. Way before scriptures or tablets or caveman drawings. We can agree to disagree at least. I can compromise.

Maybe it is recreational. If Goat Cheese wants one type for his medical, then it is fair to say a different landrace may be someone else's medical.

 

[TychoMonolyth]

Just a Few Species Make Up Most of Earth’s Food Supply.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/extinction-threatens-foods-we-eat-180965081/

Is cannabis heading in the same direction?

 

[GoatCheese]

G `day FH

Nice work .

@ GC
Moors were Arabs ? Well anyone who speaks Arabic is called Arab these days . White , black or brown .

I`m thinkin if the folks from the middle east had seeds they were moving to East Africa . Why not bring them to Nth West Africa and later Sthn Europe too if they are occupying that territory ?

Remembering Muslims don`t drink alcohol . The troops gotta have some way of chillin out when they are not conquering . lol .

Like the Thracian Merc vape rig ; page 313 of that link .

Another angle was it CBD weed for pain rather than THC weed for recreation ??



Around it goes .
View Image

Thanks for sharin



EB .

I just stumbled on some photos of Ethiopian plants and those look very similar to ACE Seeds' new Lebanese sativa line. Pics of some Egyptian plants also shared similar features.
Originally i thought Ace's Leb line looks like something related to Indian/Paki sativa hybrids.

Just looked thru photos of Iranian lines from the www and clearly these kind of "Leb sativas" were also in Iran, so Mid Eastern sure might have something to do with it.

Those pics are on the "African strains" thread. Cool thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=59587

..some African plants look "rustic" like some Himalayan/Nepalis, red stems etc., and look abit similar to some Mexican (Acapulco Gold?)