KaliChina and more...

[early_bird]

I don't bother with a cure. I get mine dried with a dehumidifier, takes about 8 days to completely dry (stems snap cleanly and it powders when crushed). This, I believe, captures the most volatile aromatic hydrocarbons and doesn't require months of curing where (as far as I can tell) nothing happens other than the degradation of the thc.

Baron, how dry let you go your weed ?

I made conflictive experiences.
I had a strain (8 Miles High) which was best quite after drying. But i had to add, i let this buds gone quite dry.

Next time i cured Kali Mist quite moisture at about 70 % humidy, quite wet i whould say. I didn´t liked it at the beginning of the cure, somewhat stony and foggy. But after some weeks this stuff went out really good, the high changed a massivly, it wasn´t the same stuff any more.

My theory from this experience is as follows. If you cure your buds at higher moisture you need to cure it for a long time. If you let gone the stuff very dry, 55% humidy for example, it degenerates from now and is at best right after drying.

 

[mayan]

Hey, Baron, kalbhairav, and early bird! Thanks!

Baron...I couldn't agree more about concentrates. My experience is precisely the same. I don't want to blame the processes - I have not had every extraction method (yet) - but I generally have found it to be exactly as you say - one hit -bingo- and then meh! My current thesis is the methodology almost invariably involves dissipating a good many of the terpenes and flavanoids and who knows what else...leaving it in my mind to often be a generic, homogenized, pasteurized. But that's just me. And maybe you. It's all about the synergy.

It's interesting about curing...The lab I work with states that there's not a huge subsequent change in cannabinoid constituents. The taste is a bit smoother, perhaps and the drier it is the higher the ratio of cannabinoids but basically not a lot of vast difference.

I do sorta disagree about kief though. In my mind, dry sift contains all or almost all the cannabinoids that were present given that it's the trichomes. Thus -to me- it's kinda the royalty of the concentrate set. Builds up tolerance quickly, I think - but otherwise...love it.

 

[Fantomatico]

Any of you guys ever try rosin? I was never a fan of shatter but rosin I like.

 

[Baron Greenback]

@Early Bird - I dry it until it's completely dry, stem snaps cleanly dry and it crumbles easily, I don't want any stickiness at all. I read a little about burning wet (unseasoned or uncured) wood for my stove and it's not efficient at all. It takes 10 -15% of the wood's energy to get it to temperature and I feel the same about weed, not bone dry and you're wasting it getting it to combustible temperature.
@mayan - It's definitely all about the synergy I looked at the drying side from a chemistry point of view. In my opinion, once the plant is down, botany is over and you're into chemistry. I want to "crystalise" the aromatic hydrocarbons, prevent them disappearing in chains attached to water molecules, so it's very interesting how you mention curing doesn't actually change the concentrations at all (I wonder how expensive this test is? It would be amazingly informative to find out if you could test a flower dried solely by dehumidifier and not cured at all - any chance mayan? If it's really expensive, maybe we can work out some way of me paying you for it?).
I do love a bit of kief, don't get me wrong. It certainly adds a kick to a doobie but as you rightly say, tolerance builds too fast for it to be viable for me. This is one of the many things that confuse me though - if thc is only in the trichomes, how come the holistic effect of the whole flower is far superior for me? Longer lasting, more complex and a lot slower tolerance build up.

 

[mayan]

Sampling Some Strains...Read All About It

Sampling Some Strains...Read All About It

Hey all...On a slightly different tangent...but nicely dovetailing with the present discussion - here's some results just received from basic testing on some Ace genetics...Done by one of the few certified labs in this state. Cool -and thought-provoking- stuff...My new focus is on CBGa. It is supposedly the "mom" precursor to both THC and CBD (and who knows what else). I'm wondering whether higher concentrations are indicative of an earlier harvest or whether it is what it is. At any rate, as the "Mom" I wonder whether it actually gives a kick to something like the Malawi x PCK, which is -in my mind- strong as fuck. Although one of the lower in THC. And I'd love to learn more about CBC, as well. So much to learn and absorb. So many tests to run...terpenes, etc. Someday! But in the meantime, this is a yo-way cool place to start. Enjoy!!

Bubba Kush x Hash Plant
THC 1%
CBD 0.2%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 19.5%
CBDa <0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa 0.3%
THCv <0.1
CBDv 0.2%
CBC 0.1%
Total 21.3%
Max THC 18.1%
Max CBD 0.2%

Kali China - Line 22
THC 5.3%
CBD <0.1%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 11.3%
CBDa <0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa <0.1
THCv <0.1
CBDv <0.1
CBC 0.1%
Total 16.7%
Max THC 15.2%
Max CBD <0.1%

Malawi x PCK
THC 1.1%
CBD 0.2%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 14.4%
CBDa <0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa 1.3%
THCv <0.1
CBDv <0.1
CBC 0.1%
Total 17.1%
Max THC 13.7%
Max CBD 0.2%

Malawi Killer x Panama Elite
THC 1.3%
CBD 0.4%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 26.8%
CBDa 0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa 0.9%
THCv <0.1
CBDv 0.3%
CBC 0.2%
Total 30%
Max THC 24.8%
Max CBD 0.5%

Zamal-Hash/2nd Pheno
THC 3.2%
CBD <0.1%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 15.9%
CBDa <0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa 0.2%
THCv <0.1
CBDv <0.1
CBC 0.1%
Total 19.4%
Max THC 17.1%
Max CBD <0.1%

Finally, here's a Golden Tiger - I separate this out because the sample was snipped 2+ weeks before harvest and I would
anticipate the numbers changing somewhat with the harvested and cured material. Maybe in a couple of months...So, FWIW....

Early Golden Tiger
THC 0.2%
CBD <0.1%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 18.7%
CBDa <0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa 0.4%
THCv <0.1
CBDv 0.3%
CBC 0.1%
Total 19.7%
Max THC 16.6%
Max CBD <0.1%

And my good Baron...all excellent points that I am in agreement with. We do have a food dehydrator so we could take a whirl and see what's what. I wonder what you are getting from the whole flower. To push back gently, I can sorta/kinda almost see the point of doing long soaks in ETOH, or whatever, to squeeze every chlorophyllic, lipid, wax, whatever, to go for the synergy with extracts like oil -although, I remain unconvinced. I'm not aware of anything in the leaf. Who knows?!? I embrace the Mysteries and smile wanly at the reductionists. My sole issue with the kief/hash is the speed with which it adds to my already lamentable tolerance. Otherwise, flavor and taste are delicious - I've been playing with a couple of vapes that allow me to vaporize the kief and its near cannabinoidal ecstasy as far as I'm concerned.

Fantomatico - I have not yet tried rosin. It sounds very interesting to me, however. I have a lot to learn!!

 

[Baron Greenback]

Thanks for those mayan - very interesting as you rightly say.
I must admit, I'm surprised how "low" thc the Kali China rock in at. Again, they get me lean and lean
I am also surprised by the Malawi x PCK, that for me was absolutely lethal and one of the strongest strains I have ever smoked. In my opinion, those results definitely add strength to the holistic effects argument. As Kalbhairav said, the terpenes must have some bearing on the strength.
Feeling pretty happy that I'm about to germinate some of the Malawi Killer x Panama, it will be interesting to see how much leaner the extra thc gets me.
If the terpene thing holds any water (and as part of holistic effects, I fully expect it to) it might be a small endorsement for my theory (with the smallest of lower case "t's" ) of capturing the most volatile aromatic hydrocarbons as quickly as possible.
I love all this sort of thing, endlessly fascinating.

 

[Kalbhairav]

I'm enjoying you two hitting back and forth your ideas from mayans data. Pretty cool that you both have experience with the vars in question to be able to knock back and forth.

You both might be interested in the latest hash church episode (episode 80) @ utube where the panel touch on very similar subjects surrounding holistic effects verses aroma etc etc.. They're long episodes of around 3 hours but well worth a watch.

 

[Baron Greenback]

I'll check that Hash Church later, thanks Kalbhairav, sounds great.
Here's a link to explain the CBGa that mayan touched on a little more -
http://www.truthonpot.com/2013/08/10/is-cannabigerol-cbg-the-ultimate-cannabinoid/
Really interesting stuff.
@mayan - I use a room dehumidifier to dry mine (the other thing with it is the water comes out at 0.0 EC, so makes a good base for seedlings feeding ), not sure about a food one. The room ones are for damp and condensation, so they suck it out of flowers really nicely and evenly

 

[mayan]

Interesting...the food ones are awesome for dessicating just about anything. I'm sure they'd dry the shit outta cannabis if you let it It's adjustable so you can use very little heat over a bit longer of a time. Of course, too dry ain't good either so one would have constantly monitor to get the sweet spot.

 

[nameko]

nice thread, invaluable documentation on the flowers and cure but how high do you veg the kali china to in/before the 5 gal? would that be with or without LST?

 

[Baron Greenback]

Kali China respond really well to training, they don't stretch massively (very controllable) so I'd say go as big as you have space for

 

[mayan]

Erm...I'm totally impaired by -er- alcohol (urg! don't try this at home, kids) but through the toxic haze I would say that either way you are OK. I think I LST'd mine but she is really a very east strain to work with all around. I will read this in the morning to see if I still agree.

 

[orfeas]

Hey, boys!
Interesting stuff you're talking...

Here's my meagre experience: A mouse nicked a cola or two drying on a pile of firewood, which I recovered about a month ago. The nugs were just as strong as the ones jarred in October, the only difference being a bit of harshness while smoking...

Orfeas

 

[mayan]

Knock Me Out With a Feather - Golden Tiger Two

Knock Me Out With a Feather - Golden Tiger Two

So, ahem...hey, all! The Golden Tiger that I harvested about a month ago was probably the hungriest, stretchiest, space-gobbling, spine-tingling plant I have grown (at least in recent memory). I was in awe and a bit afraid. I'm happy to report that to experience it is to love it and my friends were immediately enthralled. Potent but focused. Psychedelic but not ponderous. Anxiety-free. So, I was very happy to have cloned a second pheno...which I put under 12/12 about 75 days ago. Given my experience with GT1, I did not let the clone go to far- having seen deep sats explode no matter how short they are when started.

So...imagine my shock, amusement, and surprise when GT2 showed that she had approximately zero desire to stretch. As well, the flower pattern is ENTIRELY different. Well, I wanted a GT that I could tame easily and the Cosmos responded. Rather than stretch, she immediately started packing dense bud over dense bud. This actually looks like some straight Malawi I have grown - so, using my amazing deductive skills I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this does NOT favor the Thai pheno. (Incidentally, for the meticulous among you, this was from a Fem seed - as was the one that almost took over the house. Same pack. Goes to show!) So, what you're looking at are four (or so) branches -each of solid bud from top to bottom. Each branch is about 14 or 15", so there will be enough for a vaporizer bowl or two.

Don't know how long she's gonna go...she's probably at about 75 days now (the pic was from about 4 days ago). Getting a bit long in the tooth the leaves are getting a bit sad and some pistils are wiwthering but she's still spitting 'em out. At this point, I'm figuring another 30 days or so but we will see, eh?

 

[2000pm]

Wow no-stretch GT!? Smoke report is eagerly anticipated. I wonder how rare this is, might have to comb through my fem packs.

 

[scai]

Haha, Mayan, funny one
These funnyones are the joy of growing.There is always something to amaze you
The two GT's that you made me pop are doing nicely. Bought the packet years ago, never popped them. So GT is new acquaintance to me.

 

[jay sus]

i have two GT fems going now. other is kinda like this.well stacked with buds, and more compact structure. other more lanky. but anyway, what size containers you are using? i have 11l smart pots cause i´m (over)cautious of the stretch, but clearly i´m doing more harm than good with that. in any case that´s one sweet GT you got.

 

[dubi]

Hey all...On a slightly different tangent...but nicely dovetailing with the present discussion - here's some results just received from basic testing on some Ace genetics...Done by one of the few certified labs in this state. Cool -and thought-provoking- stuff...My new focus is on CBGa. It is supposedly the "mom" precursor to both THC and CBD (and who knows what else). I'm wondering whether higher concentrations are indicative of an earlier harvest or whether it is what it is. At any rate, as the "Mom" I wonder whether it actually gives a kick to something like the Malawi x PCK, which is -in my mind- strong as fuck. Although one of the lower in THC. And I'd love to learn more about CBC, as well. So much to learn and absorb. So many tests to run...terpenes, etc. Someday! But in the meantime, this is a yo-way cool place to start. Enjoy!!

Bubba Kush x Hash Plant
THC 1%
CBD 0.2%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 19.5%
CBDa <0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa 0.3%
THCv <0.1
CBDv 0.2%
CBC 0.1%
Total 21.3%
Max THC 18.1%
Max CBD 0.2%

Kali China - Line 22
THC 5.3%
CBD <0.1%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 11.3%
CBDa <0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa <0.1
THCv <0.1
CBDv <0.1
CBC 0.1%
Total 16.7%
Max THC 15.2%
Max CBD <0.1%

Malawi x PCK
THC 1.1%
CBD 0.2%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 14.4%
CBDa <0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa 1.3%
THCv <0.1
CBDv <0.1
CBC 0.1%
Total 17.1%
Max THC 13.7%
Max CBD 0.2%

Malawi Killer x Panama Elite
THC 1.3%
CBD 0.4%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 26.8%
CBDa 0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa 0.9%
THCv <0.1
CBDv 0.3%
CBC 0.2%
Total 30%
Max THC 24.8%
Max CBD 0.5%

Zamal-Hash/2nd Pheno
THC 3.2%
CBD <0.1%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 15.9%
CBDa <0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa 0.2%
THCv <0.1
CBDv <0.1
CBC 0.1%
Total 19.4%
Max THC 17.1%
Max CBD <0.1%

Finally, here's a Golden Tiger - I separate this out because the sample was snipped 2+ weeks before harvest and I would
anticipate the numbers changing somewhat with the harvested and cured material. Maybe in a couple of months...So, FWIW....

Early Golden Tiger
THC 0.2%
CBD <0.1%
CBN <0.1%
THCa 18.7%
CBDa <0.1%
Ä-8 THC <0.1%
CBGa 0.4%
THCv <0.1
CBDv 0.3%
CBC 0.1%
Total 19.7%
Max THC 16.6%
Max CBD <0.1%

Hi mayan

I cannot thank you enough for sharing your experiences and the lab results with us

Your lab results of the strains are similar to the observations and analysis we made here. The Malawi x Panama crosses easily produce a THC content between 20-25 %, properly grown Bubba Kush x HashPlant has a THC rate between 16-18%, Zamal Hash around 16-18 % THC too, Kali China is more inbred so the THC peak is not so high (THC content around 14-15 %) and curiously Malawi x PCK F1 is also around 14 % THC, i also was surprised that the best Malawi x PCKs didn't show higher THC content, the high of the hybrid is so strong, complex and long lasting that i was waiting for a higher THC content, but it's a sign that not always there's a clear and proportional connection between the THC content and the strenght or complexity of the effects of a sample. Guess Golden Tiger would have higher cannabinoid content with a bit more of maturation, GT's THC content varies between 16-17 % for the thai phenos and close to 23 % for the more Malawi phenos.

I'm also trying to understand how the CBG content influences the effects of a strain. We are finding that strains with an extra complexity in the effect usually have some remarkable amounts of CBG, it's interesting to note that central american sativas like Panama and Tikal usually have higher CBG content than most other strains.

A new era to understand the complexity of this wonderful plant is coming thanks to the access to the lab analysis. There are so many variables involved (different cannabinoids and dozens of different terpenes which we are only able to detect a few by now ...) that it will take us many years of debate to reach a consensus about the synergy of the different variables.

 

[Baron Greenback]

@ dubi - have you got anything to add to the discussion mayan, khalb and me were having on the previous page? Based on what you've said above (and the fact that you very obviously know loads more about it than me ) our thoughts seem to have some sort of basis in actual science - the holistic effect rather than the thc content is what counts.
Your cbg thoughts are very interesting, any ideas that can expand on that all?
A personal thought is that there are extremely volatile aromatic hydrocarbons lost during both the drying and curing phase, I use a dehumidifier but there must be a quicker, heatless way? I wonder what additional effects these may have?

 

[mayan]

Hey all!! Yes, the Great Art is a joy and wonder! So much to learn - and prohibition has not made it easy. Never thought I would live to see this coming down the way it is. Whew!

At any rate...
jay sus - I typically flower 'em out in 5 gallon smart pots. The above GT2 (Golden Kitty) is in a 2 gallon smart pot - my intermediate size - when I realized that her stretch was over and she still didn't have many roots showing. I used to grow in these, so I figured I'd just take her all the way without transplant.

Baron and dubi...This conversation is fascinating on so many different levels. BTW, I just read a very interesting article on beta-caryophyllene - one of the terpenes - that leads me to think (if it's to be believed) that it could very well be quite important and terms of shaping the effect and even cancer treatment. Just passing it on. At some point, I would like to start testing for the terpenes (at least the major ones), as well. While the reductionists try to isolate a molecule and reproduce it, I'm convinced that our eyes must be cast toward the synergy of the whole. Undoubtedly THC and CBD are the bigs but by themselves they tell us very little -at least at this point. Thanks, dubi, for giving us so much to work with.