Is coco really maxing out hydroponic potential?

[Jellyfish]

I have success using perlite/vermiculite mix in Hempy buckets. Never tried coco, but lots of people on the hempy bucket thread come back to perlite/vermiculite after trying coco.

I read a lot of posts about having to water every day, and then that attracts more pests like mites- never had any of those issues using p/v mix.

A previous poster was correct though- there's no medium that's gonna speed up your flowering times.

 

[Drop That Sound]

I never actually compared but heard DWC can speed up flowering by a whole week, not sure if that's to coco or just soil.
I get bored with dwc and like to switch back to coco once in awhile, but man dwc kicks coco's ass. I imagine the best amount of air and water in a coco bucket is the same as dumping a bunch of coco in a dwc tote and choking out the roots or something, it cant be better!

 

[Ravenboy]

I never actually compared but heard DWC can speed up flowering by a whole week, not sure if that's to coco or just soil.
I get bored with dwc and like to switch back to coco once in awhile, but man dwc kicks coco's ass. I imagine the best amount of air and water in a coco bucket is the same as dumping a bunch of coco in a dwc tote and choking out the roots or something, it cant be better!

but man dwc kicks coco's ass.


have you tried a PPK yet?

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

The highest yielding Hydro system is (true, high pressure) Aeroponics, followed by (false, low pressure) spraybox Aeroponics, followed by NFT, followed by other active systems, then passive systems

In a basic 1x600W system, or multiples, yield is notably up and flowering shorter with each improvement, I have tested all myself apart from the true Aero, but from what I have read, it outperforms low pressure spraybox aero.

Nutriculture, the UK based NFT tank company, Est. 1976 now sell Aero boxes http://www.nutriculture.com/amazon.html which they also say outperform NFT, not massively, but notably. They still sell their NFT boxes alongside, for many people prefer them for various reasons. Anchorage, height, etc. Anybody wanting to play with Hydro, I strongly recommend you having a play with one of these, they are cheap too..

All of this is under ambient CO2 levels. Plant growth is governed by limiting factors. If ambient CO2 is limiting all unenriched cannabis grows to 5/10 of their potential* then all growing methods apart from True Aero will be limiting plant growth by more than this....

*Widely believed that CO2, done right, doubles yield

 

[mojave green]

If done right nothing can touch hydroton.. Coco is more forgiving though

My best yields have been in hydro ton, but fuck rinsing that shit. And fuck recycling it. I toss my medium less roots in the yard. Poof gone before your eyes. I'm real lazy!

 

[cyat]

I have success using perlite/vermiculite mix in Hempy buckets. Never tried coco, but lots of people on the hempy bucket thread come back to perlite/vermiculite after trying coco.

I read a lot of posts about having to water every day, and then that attracts more pests like mites- never had any of those issues using p/v mix.

A previous poster was correct though- there's no medium that's gonna speed up your flowering times.

What ratio of perlite to. Vermiculite are you using?

 

[Ravenboy]

I have success using perlite/vermiculite mix in Hempy buckets. Never tried coco, but lots of people on the hempy bucket thread come back to perlite/vermiculite after trying coco.

I read a lot of posts about having to water every day, and then that attracts more pests like mites- never had any of those issues using p/v mix.

A previous poster was correct though- there's no medium that's gonna speed up your flowering times.

and a lot of people praise coco in hempies after trying a hempy/verm hempy - the creator of the hempy for example. he saw little difference between them except he liked the product grown in coco better

 

[Lester Beans]

i water 1.6 liters into 10 liters of coco/perlite 18 times a day. never gets overwatered, once the plant has decent roots.

thats my experience

take a look at any of the PPK threads, and also the Big tree coco thread. LOTS more than twice a day!

I have never heard of watering that much and fail to see the benefit. The main reason hydroponics work so well is the roots get oxygen, but yet enough water to keep the roots from drying out.

I never watered more than twice a day with coco. Of course my rooms were dialed, if you have a hot room you have bigger problems than water cycle.

 

[guineapig]

Theoretical question, but Deep Water Culture and Nutrient Film Technique and Aeroponic Techniques would provide more nutrients and oxygen, but then you get into some "Ferrari" types of situations where a breakdown is more likely to occur and the parts get more expensive and the labor gets more intensive.

You could run experiments with pure oxygen, if you have access to the bottles or a concentrator device, but then you face pH issues when the introduction of oxygen molecules kicks the water into the basic zone, kind of like adding too much Silica solution, and then you have nutrient lock-out issues.

For more vigorous flowering, you might try CO2 gas in the atmosphere and see how that influences nutrient uptake and stomata closure rates.

More experimental media might out-perform coco, such as the enhanced sawdust medium that was written up in articles a few years ago. But you probably would get other issues such as mold and possible supply problems.

The under-valued "nutrient" is often the atmosphere, with respect to CO2 and humidity levels and wind speed (which enhances stem structure). If you have maximized your light and your nutrients, then perhaps you would do best to look into your atmosphere. CO2 and humidity and fan oscillation, with multiple tiny fans being better than large oscillating fans, depending on the size of your situation.

Also, how about techniques such as FIM and topping, if the strain responds favorably to such methods? Train the primary meristem around a circular frame and create a spiral. Such techniques are labor-intensive, but interesting nonetheless.

kind regards from guineapig

 

[Cheesegez]

The entire growth is sped up when using coco .. I've grew plants side by side same cut and the results speak for themselves ...

Peace

 

[Ravenboy]

I have never heard of watering that much and fail to see the benefit. The main reason hydroponics work so well is the roots get oxygen, but yet enough water to keep the roots from drying out.


I never watered more than twice a day with coco. Of course my rooms were dialed, if you have a hot room you have bigger problems than water cycle.

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh,,,, hmmmm

yes you said earlier in this thread that its wrong to water coco more than a couple times a day, i heard you the last time and now i will provide more info

the benefit of watering coco frequently is for the coco and plant is to remain in the "sweet zone" with regards to oxygenation for a higher percentage of the time spent growing.

this isn't a new concept. it applies to any use of coco in passive and active hydro

I am using PPKs - so active hydro - you could think of it solely as recirculating top feed coco perlite (but it has other features not relevant to this discussion)

this is a normal schedule for PPKs. depending on medium - hitting it every 30 minutes (pure perlite) to around every three hours or so (pure coco) . LOTs of oxygen,moderate nutrient concentration, amazing growth rates.

its not only a normal schedule for PPKS, but many growers with drip systems, flood tables, - lots of recirculating coco systems run several times a day. i went to recirculating because i got tired of hand watering coco as many 5 times a day, and i wanted it watered more often than that, not less.


for 50-50 coco perlite, like i use, the recommendation is every 90 minutes to 120 minutes. right now i am at 90 and 1.6 liters delivered in 12 seconds.


I shit you not, and if you are skeptical, the data is here on this forum, in this section (hydro section)


as for temperature

Have you read the coco trees thread? (its not my thread, but its about huge trees, way 'high' temps AND watering ALL the time)
lots of talk about high temps, and VPD there. thats what convinced me

my room IS dialed. runs between 82 and 87 24x7 at appropriate VPD levels. totally automatic, temp, ventilation, temperature ... set the temp, and forget about it


i have a warm room (though 87 is the TOP limit, but the room is only at 87 10 times an hour) ) and have no problems, and i do it that way on purpose. However i do automatically control the VPD ( adding or reducing humidity) as the temp controller goes up and down between 82 and 87 about 10 times an hour. all automatic.



, and in late flower i go lower temps (humidity is always automatically adjusted to provide an appropriate VPD) to avoid any potential of bud rot.

i shit you not, check out the coco big tree thread
coco trees

i do appreciate your intent. but i am not experimenting here. I learned roasting the plants and feeding the crap to of them right here in this section of ICMAG

for coco...lots of feedings, and higher temps works GREAT

 

[Zarezhu]

I'm back guys-

Lot of great info here now! Thanks for chiming in!

It seems the general consensus is that DWC and hydroton DO in fact produce slightly higher yields and higher quality bud.

And that Aero would be even more superior?

I've only been able to find DIY links for aero setups though. Seems like theres a lot more dwc-esque systems that have been perfected and are selling entire systems for fairly large rooms.


@dans- he gorilla bubble looks incredible! I'd love to pop some seeds in a search for a keeper! Theyre regular seeds right? Non-fem? I couldnt find any pics of darlins net or DMT. How does it compare to the GB?

@mojave- BEAUTIFUL roots! Do you have a bunch of 5g buckets plumbed together? Or are the under current systems different? Seems easy to plumb. Do you just recirculate the solution for 2 weeks, and do a res swap every 2 weeks? Any issues with ph swings? And how are ya keepin them roots so white and healthy without a chiller? h2o2 or chlorine or?

Why do you think your hydroton yields were higher? Was it flood and drain style, or topfed? It may be easy for me to pay a friend to clean a bunch of hydroton once a month. Would negate the hassle of having to do it yourself

Looks really simple to just plug a plant right in and not have to worry bout multiple transplants into pots and what not.

Would it be particularly difficult setting up 16-20kw dwc? I'm currently using 275g totes for my res, lasts my 4kw room about 2 weeks.


@cyat- Why do ya say nothin will touch hydroton? And, do you mean, topfed pots filled with hydroton, or flood and drain tables with net pots? Or?

@chaos- Thanks for your post, very informative! These aero boxes you're talking about, they've basically large ez cloners? low pressure aeroponics? 24/7 spraying the roots with the nute solution? That does seem like a very easy aeroponic system to work with. Is it easily scale-able to 4kw and again to 20kw? There's a bunch of undercurrent systems and dwc-ish systems that are easily scale-able, easy to find, I couldnt find any true aero systems though.

@guineapig - Hey there! It seems like once these systems are set up and functional, there arent TOO many things that can go wrong. Maybe pump failure, or clogged sprayers?




Either way, I took a few pics of my current situation. I don't spend much time picture documenting my grows, but heres shots at something like day 55 since 12/12.

Most of the bud is supposedly thin mint cookies, first time running her. Doin better than my platinum cookies did.

The table in the back with the tall stakes is Sour D. Not even close to nugging up like the cookies yet. Will probably be cut @ day 77. However, the sour D is in the coldest part of the room, and I have my temps fairly low right now (64 night, 75-78 day) to get extra color out of the cookies. I know the sour D likes warm temps, but it wont get them till next cycle. Sours actually getting really purple right now, surprisingly so.


Running 1.2-1.3 EC through flower, with RO, calmag+, epsom salt, A+B, little pk13/14, sometimes cannazyme. Keeping my ph proper as well.
Humidity at week 9 is staying around 45-55%. Temps between 75-78 day, down to 64-65 at night.
I have 5 oscillating fans on medium speed, and my AC unit has a fairly decent blower on it as well.
Plants have been pruned/lollipopped fairly thoroughly.
I have 25 5.5" square pots per 4x4 table, each getting watered 5x a day. My plants are "rootbound", in small pots, so multifeeding is necessary. This is commonly accepted as the best method to grow in coco.
Co2 levels have been around 900~ for the whole bloom cycle.

 

[cyat]

Zarezhu, looks like you are doing a great job already!

I'm only speaking from my own experience .. Coco and dirt are are super similar to me as far as growth rates . Rocks are much more explosive. I did top feed rdwc, and waterfarms. The rewards and risk of failure are greater too, this is why I don't do it often , other reasons are heat and initial cost and planning.
The simplicity of filling some pots and hand watering wins most of the time for me

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

@chaos- Thanks for your post, very informative! These aero boxes you're talking about, they've basically large ez cloners? low pressure aeroponics? 24/7 spraying the roots with the nute solution? That does seem like a very easy aeroponic system to work with. Is it easily scale-able to 4kw and again to 20kw? There's a bunch of undercurrent systems and dwc-ish systems that are easily scale-able, easy to find, I couldnt find any true aero systems though.

Yes, exactly, low pressure aeroponics is a large ez cloner, 24/7 spray box.

NFT is also better 24/7 (and all other active systems that drain fast IMO) after a 2x3M side by side comparing 15m on/15m off NFT with 24/7 flow, we never deviated from 24/7. Bless my mate who carried on the experiement, even after it was quickly obvious that 24/7 was going to monster it (1.3 vs 1.8kg)

It scales in the sense that you can get bigger ones, and run a few of them, , but it is not perfect. Their NFT systems include freestanding ducts and separate reservoirs you can configure into spaces more flexibly. For many good reasons, the slightly simpler, more robust NFT is the practical winner for many growers out of the two. Why not buy one of each and have a play, one will work better for you than the other.

True Aero is beyond the hobby world really, very expensive pumps and high PSI and strange nutrient profiles needed when you are mainlining it direct into the roots. Pet Flora has written an excellent thread about this, recommended reading

 

[TreehouseJ]

I thought Mad Labs HPA thread was much more concise and informative.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=300232

 

[soundman]

as far as genetics , check out the Darlins net thread & the gorilla bubble threads & let me know if they peek your interest . if they do i can see to it that you get some seeds to run out & pheno hunt with .

Dan - You are one of the reasons I like this site. I was a member for a while and deleted my previous posts due to too many pics up. You have been consistently helpful to folks.

It is posts like the one above that makes me smile. I didn't read the whole thread but I bet that dude is so stoked on getting some of that dank genetics if he takes you up.

You guys are making some crazy stuff. Hats off.

 

[Drop That Sound]

I haven't done PPK, honestly I've seen the term a 1000 times and never clicked or looked into it. Without even checking yet i'm guessing its basically a super saturated & oxygenated layered coco recirc. setup or something? Will check into it right away. I'm always into new methods. Was about to do one last coco run next to a monster dwc plant while I finish building my new setups. If its worthwhile to setup just temporarily for one run I'd be down to try... otherwise pots on corrugated roof panels and straight into gutter and the floor drain, gravity drip fed from above.

My new rooms and halfway completed perpetual system consists of a hybrid AERO/DWC/Fogponic cloner, then plants get transplanted into multi configurable LP AERO/NFT/DRIP/RDWC/Fogponic hybrid vegging rails with 3.75" net pots, which are 5x5 vinyl fence post sleeves w/ flip down side hatches and plexiglass viewing windows to check on the roots and see the action, then into RDWC flower systems, (which I can also set an LP Aero fence post deck right on top the totes if I want to do an AERO run). Bye coco...

 

[Loc Dog]

I wasted 2 years trying to get coco right. I am back to flood and drain in hydroton, and it is cranking. 3 weeks into first flower. I gave coco over 10 runs, and plan to have hydro tuned in within 3 grows. I am in basement, and res is outside tent, so need to use aquarium heater to warm the water. No noise from air pumps, although GH makes a quiet air pump, but a little expensive.

Just check PH and PPM of res everyday, and everything else is automated.

 

[Drop That Sound]

but man dwc kicks coco's ass.


have you tried a PPK yet?

Ok so I looked it up, first pic on google:

-anyway i've used straight coco b4 in dwc netpots, and for just tomato's once i used 5 gallon buckets with the bottoms drilled out with smaller net pots for wicks, set right on top of 2x4 framed rain gutters with float valves, same thing right just didnt add an air pump...

Just seems like a bunch more work than throwing a net pot and dropping the roots straight in. Im guessing the only advantages over dwc are the ability of the medium to hold onto beneficial bacteria and fungi's.

If it's worthwhile to do so, suppose i could add PPK bucket tops to the list of configurations that plug into my hybrid RDWC flower system eventually. Sounds like a great way to clog up my filters!

 

[Loc Dog]

I haven't done PPK, honestly I've seen the term a 1000 times and never clicked or looked into it. Without even checking yet i'm guessing its basically a super saturated & oxygenated layered coco recirc. setup or something? Will check into it right away. I'm always into new methods. Was about to do one last coco run next to a monster dwc plant while I finish building my new setups. If its worthwhile to setup just temporarily for one run I'd be down to try... otherwise pots on corrugated roof panels and straight into gutter and the floor drain, gravity drip fed from above.

My new rooms and halfway completed perpetual system consists of a hybrid AERO/DWC/Fogponic cloner, then plants get transplanted into multi configurable LP AERO/NFT/DRIP/RDWC/Fogponic hybrid vegging rails with 3.75" net pots, which are 5x5 vinyl fence post sleeves w/ flip down side hatches and plexiglass viewing windows to check on the roots and see the action, then into RDWC flower systems, (which I can also set an LP Aero fence post deck right on top the totes if I want to do an AERO run). Bye coco...

I am no expert on PPK, but seems to be vertical growing, in a circle around a bare bulb, so light goes in all directions.