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I no longer believe Broad Mites cause DUDDING

S

StudenTeacher

So, i finally went to town and tried to send the samples to the nematode lab, but i showed up to UPS at 5:20 and the driver was just pulling out. Pickup time was at 5:30 at the UPS store I was at last time, so when I left the house I thought I was good to go, with a few minutes to spare. I figured instead of racing the driver to the other store, which was 10 min away, I would just send the package tomorrow.

Last night i was reading about stem and bulb nematodes and the synergistic effect they have when plants are infected with fusarium. This was not cannabis related, though d.dipsaci was mentioned. Basically, four major types of fusarium in California. One is not of concern. One will fuck you no matter what. The other two types need nematodes to set things off, and really kick your plants ass. Apparently, these two types of fusarium will be in the plant and not cause major damage, if any, until the nematodes arrive on the scene. At this point the plant is weakened by both the pathogen, and the micro organisms. Just like when popeye gets his spinach, the fusarium turns into a badass all of the sudden and starts to wreck shit. Unfortunately, this popeye is an evil fungus. Of course, once the fusarium grabs ahold, it's easy peasy for the nematodes to do their thing, since the plants immune system has been compromised, and that's when the train pulls into Dud City.
This is the third grader version of the paper I read last night. If you want the college version, google+dipsaci nematode+fusarium. one study was on garlic, and i forget the other, as it was like 4am when I was reading it.
I'm not saying I think this is what happened to my plants this time around. No reason to speculate on that, since I'll have the lab results soon. I do think this is what fucked me up in the past though. I kept killing the bugs, but the fusarium was there for sure, and I think that's why i was always coming up short. It's like doing a double tap and being shot in the face at the same time. Should have put a bullet in each one first. Then double tap. This is much easier if you know where your target is of course. As the saying goes. 'know your enemy'. From now on I'll always use something for the todes and the fusarium 100% every time no matter what. This will be my first full round with chitosan, regalia, and, ogbiowar(mycos, trichoderma, etc). The clones will get the shit blasted out of them with eagle and avid, with kontos in the roots.

I'll be sending clones to the lab every round until I feel comfortable, that my controls are working. I figure, since the roots and crown will be so small, i can put a bunch of them in the sample bag, and when fusarium stops coming up, I'll stop using the eagle on veg plants. These tests are only $ 75. At the end of the round, at harvest, after treating plants with pesticides in veg, I will test for the nematodes again ($325), so long as this next test comes back positive for them.

Sorry for the delay on everything, I had to pay some bills first. Most plants finished up a week ago(horribly), but i left the superdud hanging in there so i could make sure it was a nice sample for the lab.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
I was trying to find any correlation between fungal interactions and negative effect on secondary metabolite production.

Found this, seems an interesting read

Secondary metabolites in fungus-plant interactions

PDF format

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEoQFjAHahUKEwjfsfSAoo3IAhWCNT4KHUM2BZE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjournal.frontiersin.org%2Farticle%2F10.3389%2Ffpls.2015.00573%2Fpdf&usg=AFQjCNFI4VjP5bxFe_m-H_7LXUztrccFrA&bvm=bv.103388427,d.cWw


Systemic infection by fusarium in Maize

http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/abs/10.1094/PDIS-92-12-1695


Difference between resistant and susceptible maize to systematic colonization as revealed by DsRed-labeled Fusarium verticillioides

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214514113000056

detoxification of fusarium toxins in transgenic crop plants

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...n_transgenic_crop_plants_by_rakesh_khadka.pdf
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
I wonder if the fusarium / pest collapse interaction can also happen with broad mites, etc.

Could fusarium infections be the domino that falls allowing pests like broad mites and nematodes express like this?

It echos the same thing that happens in ecosystem collapse, one factor gets imbalanced and the rest are effected.
 

accessndx

♫All I want to do is zoom-a-zoom-zoom-zoom..
Veteran
I wonder if the fusarium / pest collapse interaction can also happen with broad mites, etc.

Could fusarium infections be the domino that falls allowing pests like broad mites and nematodes express like this?

It echos the same thing that happens in ecosystem collapse, one factor gets imbalanced and the rest are effected.

This is a theory that makes sense Weird. People have used the analogy of HIV infection developing into AIDS before, and I think it accurately depicts what's probably going on. Of course I'd like to see some test results, but in the interim it's not unreasonable to assume there's more than one vector at play simultaneously that causes a cascading and downward trending effect in plant health/vigor.

I think anyone could argue successfully that two bad things are worse than one and in this case why couldn't it be broadmites for one person and nematodes for another. We're talking a variety of different environments with a multitude of factors at play.

Compound this issue with the fact that some cuts travel far and wide and are shared by many.....that's a recipe for pandemic.

Couple that with the fact that you can't always see the deterioration actively and combine that with the numerous different treatment strategies and/or opinions regarding organic vs. chemical...and you've got a carousel of cannabis confusion.
 

oceangrownkush

Well-known member
Veteran
The cumulative effect is our best guess for now I'm thinking. There are also strains that seem particularly easy to infect/affect (Sour Dubb, GG4, OG). I have a Wifi43 that is a far cry from full on industrial hemp status dudd but she definitely carries some of the symptoms.

Going to be doing a bit of a test. Sending the 43 materials into the pathology lab to try to put a name to the face, then will be leaving one mother plant untreated and one will be treated with Regalia and cuts from her soaked in Physan20 to see if symptoms diminish.
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
It could also be in part due to immobilization of certain nutrients by certain pathogens making the mineral sensitivities of differing strains more prominent and also acting as a catalyst to failing plant health and thus vulnerability to the pathogen itself
 

Piff Rhys Jones

🌴 Hugging Trees 🌴
Veteran
Not saying I know more than a lab scientist, but I'm skeptical of fusarium being the cause of dudding.

I've had fusarium before and although it affects branches one at a time, it gradually and eventually moves through the entire plant killing each branch by cutting off the water supply, and ultimately killing the entire plant.

Dudding on the other hand doesn't kill the plant it just affects the quality of the buds. I've never read any studies about fusarium affecting plants in this way, canna or otherwise. Fusarium affects the plant's ability to move water in my experience, and kills the branches it affects pretty damn quickly.

Peace
 

accessndx

♫All I want to do is zoom-a-zoom-zoom-zoom..
Veteran
It could also be in part due to immobilization of certain nutrients by certain pathogens making the mineral sensitivities of differing strains more prominent and also acting as a catalyst to failing plant health and thus vulnerability to the pathogen itself

This is a good thought Weird. Having addressed this possibility: has anyone attempted to engage in regular foliar feeding of nutrients to circumvent potential issues with xylem and phloem transport issues?

I know I personally haven't, but I'd like to see if there's any impact.
 

oceangrownkush

Well-known member
Veteran
Foliar feeding Epsom salts seems to help relieve the visual cues in my WiFi cut but doesn't affect finished product (still airy/hairy/slight dud)
 

thchunter

Member
Not saying I know more than a lab scientist, but I'm skeptical of fusarium being the cause of dudding.

I've had fusarium before and although it affects branches one at a time, it gradually and eventually moves through the entire plant killing each branch by cutting off the water supply, and ultimately killing the entire plant.

Dudding on the other hand doesn't kill the plant it just affects the quality of the buds. I've never read any studies about fusarium affecting plants in this way, canna or otherwise. Fusarium affects the plant's ability to move water in my experience, and kills the branches it affects pretty damn quickly.

Peace
seems like the dudding has come to the uk a LOT of sick plants about
 

xxxstr8edgexxx

Active member
Veteran
Foliar feeding Epsom salts seems to help relieve the visual cues in my WiFi cut but doesn't affect finished product (still airy/hairy/slight dud)

not sure which one you have but in trying to track #43 down i have run into a lot of people who have gotten ahold of it and it turned out to be a dud. maybe like 3 or 4 different stories in different areas and none of the people know each other.
 

xxxstr8edgexxx

Active member
Veteran
I wonder if the fusarium / pest collapse interaction can also happen with broad mites, etc.

Could fusarium infections be the domino that falls allowing pests like broad mites and nematodes express like this?

It echos the same thing that happens in ecosystem collapse, one factor gets imbalanced and the rest are effected.
yes i have wondered the same thing. if there was something else tha makes the nematodes more damaging and maybe even possible at all. like if there were an issue that invited them to affect cannabis more prominant that unaffected plants.
og kush (referred to as the type, tahoe, true, sfv, ghost, fire etc)has less leaf surface and less root vigor than most strains. it therefore has a less aggressive cycling of wet and dry possibly leaving it open to lock out more frequently due to low oxygen or toxic buildups.
seems reasonable if any plant would have something like this it would be og kush or sour. three leaf low leaf to calyx ratio. .
 

accessndx

♫All I want to do is zoom-a-zoom-zoom-zoom..
Veteran
GG4 seems to be one that alot of folks have trouble with. It may be that there's a genetic predisposition that infectious vectors capitalize on.

Some strains seem very resistant for whatever reason to a host of different nasties, while others seem to take it in the ass hard.

The same is true of human physiology, some folks get dealt a bad genetic deck and end up with all sorts of pathology...while others are able to eat whatever, smoke whatever and indulge in all manners of debauchery without ill effect.

Of course humans with compromised or suppressed immune systems are more likely to succumb to opportunistic diseases.

There's more than likely a few contributing factors with one outcome.

With regards to foliar feeding: the epsom salts I haven't tried. But I was referring to the use of nutrients of the same variety you'd be feeding your vegative and flowering plants.
If they can't take it in via their root systems, possibly the use of foliar nutrient applications would enable the plant tissue to compensate at least partially by direct absorption.
Healthier leaves are going to support healthier root systems and vice versa...
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
could be a new strain or a more aggressive one

if you look at the roundup article I posted it would lend much credence to pathogen explosion and adaption this rapidly

I think that whatever the "exact" pathogen is, it is present in the regular environment, establishes itself in the local (grow) environment and plants are pressured and under certain pressures, the plant itself becomes host to the pathogen in question.

it does not seem to spread from plant to plant (mixed plants in one container not all are effected) externally but rather infects a plant, and before it is expressed, the gardener (unbeknownst to him/her) propogates a plant with a condition before it is expressed.

Even heavy doses of humics can cause root fissures which invite this phenomenon to happen, but at lower doses it helps fight the disease .. go figure

Effect of Humic Acid Applications on the Root-Rot Diseases Caused by Fusarium spp. on Tomato Plants

http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ppj.2008.179.182
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
interesting because of all the times I gotten blight outdoors it never killed a whole plant

more than one variety and in many host plants they do not kill the whole plant
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
also FWIW a systemic fungal infection will be found in the plant leaves

if it attacks rhizosphere, immobilizes necessary minerals and attacks root hairs it does not need to infect the plant to stifle its feeding

it could also be shutting down sars responses which seems to be another payload
 

Weird

3rd-Eye Jedi
Veteran
are people who use systemic fungicides having the same issues? seems like alot of dirt guys up in here ...
 

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