I no longer believe Broad Mites cause DUDDING

[Hammerhead]

I have a friend that has access to kilos of chitosan oligosaccharide lactate. He is sending me some of it. I like to keep things on hand just in case. If adding a gram into the rez is beneficial I will put it in there. From what he tells me its not expensive. I'm not sure why people sale it for so much on Ebay.

 

[accessndx]

massive respect for taking the time to actually video document the sighting of d. ditylenchus in an actual dudded plant at 400(?)x. that was a really major turn in the community awareness of this. it also seemed to be the point at which ss and you started reporting the cures worked. its funny, a lot of the people who had time to stay and right about it were the people who never saw it. they didnt notice that all the people who starting following you and ss advice were too busy getting back to their growing careers and were too trouble free to bother with the dudd thread anymore.

Are we now on the full metal nematode tip as to the cause of duds?

 

[Piff Rhys Jones]

Anyone seen duds outdoors?

Peace

 

[Hammerhead]

Look what showed up today . I put some in a small baggie. The large bag will be put away until needed.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

Are we now on the full metal nematode tip as to the cause of duds?

no im not totally 100% convinced of nematodes being the sole cause, but its my best guess and i at least think there is an association if not a direct causal effect. i dont know. it seemed like the best scenario given the info ive seen and the stories ive seen, experienced, and heard.

but no, i wouldn't be so bold to even say for sure we are talking about one cause. ive started to come around to the fact that it holds a lot of water as a theory as well. i havent always felt that way and ive changed theories several times. not so much back and forth but successive best guesses that have since gotten disproven for one reason or another. like htis nematode theory it held my attention at the time they were coming into focus, literally and figuratively. . ive lost my ability and need to put as much effort into it. i havent gotten a good dud sample since right exactly before storm shadow announced his girlfriend found the d. dipsaci in one of their duds in a scope. that was followed by wt215 posting a video on you tube of them in a microscope video. then obsoul33t i heard did the same on ig. i never saw it though.. . right before ss dropped that i took my last sample for another member on here into a lab for a real pathology team to go over it, they employed many tests many ways to try to find anything.
unfortunately the type of sample i brought last would have been a poor way to sample for nematodes, it was new procedure for me to use a lab, so its a murky negative. it did have either pythium or fusarium. i cant remember now its been over a year. no one at the lab involved thought that was the culprit. lead researcher for this program at the lab said she thought it was a genetic drift from clonal propagation associated damage i.e. genetic drift. i disagreed and she didnt appear to necessarily feel at sure of the reality of that. it was a shrugged guess. i mean damn. thats a real attempt but i think if i had it to do over i would investigate it with a nematologist with a root crown sample containing the top several inches of main stem along with leaf, stem, and root ball samples.

 

[accessndx]

St8edge: In treating patients, often diagnostics are difficult to employ due to economic factors, insurance restrictions, and patient apprehension. In a perfect world it wouldn't be this way. Sometimes we have to go on our "best guess" and hope for a positive outcome.
Having said that, by employing a treatment strategy that is formulated using our best guess we can sometimes recursively obtain a diagnosis.

So if you believe there are nematodes at play, by treating for nematodes and achieving success you may be able to determine if that was indeed the case.

Has anyone done that?

I can say that from reading various dud threads the answer is at best unclear.

These threads often devolve into organic vs. chemical hate, and are confounded by massive pissing contests.

I'm not really interested in whose brain is the largest....just facts that can be used to treat this horrid and debilitating condition.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

St8edge: In treating patients, often diagnostics are difficult to employ due to economic factors, insurance restrictions, and patient apprehension. In a perfect world it wouldn't be this way. Sometimes we have to go on our "best guess" and hope for a positive outcome.
Having said that, by employing a treatment strategy that is formulated using our best guess we can sometimes recursively obtain a diagnosis.

So if you believe there are nematodes at play, by treating for nematodes and achieving success you may be able to determine if that was indeed the case.

Has anyone done that?

I can say that from reading various dud threads the answer is at best unclear.

These threads often devolve into organic vs. chemical hate, and are confounded by massive pissing contests.

I'm not really interested in whose brain is the largest....just facts that can be used to treat this horrid and debilitating condition.

Great post and insights. You bring up some really strong points.

Couldn't agree more. The problem I ran into with the deductive reasoning you speak to is
A)I am not aware of any really specific nematode treatment capable of eradication as per the literature and isn't something that wouldn't kill a large spectrum of organisms. The more things your treatment can cure the harder that reductive process is to pinpoint cause.

B)these aren't lab settings and online participants in a thread, egotistical and emphatic as they may be, infallible and honest they may not be. They aren't necessarily all on in agreement as to variables to control or even account for or even on the same protocol. Variances in their ability to replicate protocols.
You gotta consider you take the pros with cons when you take the cons with the pros on this site.

One persons idea of following instructions may not be another's. Treatments effectiveness needs to be viewed through the lens of street cred to some degree and taken as anecdotal. This makes the forums kinda dodgy as data collection avenues as to wether any given treatment is effective. That said. When one looks at enough threads and sees enough time go by, time usually threshes som reasonable conclusions to throw out as theories.

Theories are great. They are better than hypothesis. Lol. More data needed to draw any full metal deductions.

That's why God invented grad students. ucdavis is my favorite. In most cases tons of research has been done on any plant pathology you'll encounter. They do amazing work and publish results. You need to recruit a university staff or student for access to view published online journals, or just pay for a cheap but inclusive per use access.

 

[StudenTeacher]

So I'm still waiting for the test results to come back, however, I did have an interesting breakthrough the other day. The veg room took a serious shit over the course of a few days which confused the hell out of me because I've seen just about every type of dud over the past couple years and this time was different. I've had the florescent yellow weird growth dud, the tiny fan leave with close node dud, the twisted blistering broadmite dud, fusarium, and the common unknown DUD which could possibly be from nematodes like the ones that StormShadow found. Also I've had root aphids and seen the damage they can do. These are all unique to one another and I've seen em all in the dud thread over the years.

This time was different. My earlier hypothesis was incorrect. I had been lazy and thought maybe i fugged things up by watering with extremely warm water, killing the bennies and rotting the organic additives. I've smelled pythium root rot before, though it has been 12-14 years, and the smell wasn't there, so I figured that my damaging the roots perhaps caused whatever pathogen, virus ,etc, to spread and grab ahold while the plants were weak, just before the rot had set in completely. Obviously this guessing game was no fun, so off to the lab the samples went.

So, back to the veggie room...
An old ass bottle of hygrozyme is the culprit 100% I saw a couple of gnats in the room so I killed them and hit the roots with the hygrozyme at 10 mil per gallon.The next day the plants looked sickly, and one more day they were completely yellow with burnt edges and tips, yet sagging like crazy. Like root rot with burning. This happened in the flowering room but 7 weeks into flower it took on a slightly different appearance than the vegging ladies, and it was right around the time when the duds would set in, so I figured that it must have been a dud showing itself differently than the previous ones did, or another type of dud all together. What made this more confusing is that i had 2 actual duds from a few J1 clones i took in. Of the three J! plants, two were classic duds, and one was perfect.

After the two days of hygrozme I stopped with all food and additives, and just flushed with water and bleach @ 1/2 tsp per 5gallons. Within another two days, the plants began to rebound. Now it's been a week and i'm probably a week away from being able to cut a few nice heathy clones off of them. I'm going to call the lab today and see how much longer the results will take. I sent samples of the J1 separately from the 'new dud', so the results should be conclusive either way.

I think damaging the roots, however it happens will show on the plant in a similar way. Thats why in the dud thread people always speculate about overwatering, or ph imbalance, or improper nutrition, etc. As soon as the roots are affected, some or all of these signs will show. I'll keep everyone updated as soon as i get results from the lab.

 

[StudenTeacher]

Look what showed up today . I put some in a small baggie. The large bag will be put away until needed.


View Image

For anyone else that wants to try this product. bestchitosan.com product id# cop-1. It's $135 for one kilo and i got two for $217. This includes shipping from China, which amazingly takes only two business days. The payment through paypal is kinda weird but I've received both orders and haven't heard of any complaints yet.

 

[Hammerhead]

I'm starting off with just 1 gram in my 40g rez.. What are you mixing it at??


I looked at that site. Man you talk about confusing info. I like the Liquid stuff.

All of these say can be used for Agriculture..
http://bestchitosan.com/e_productshow/?35-Agricultural-Chitosan-35.html
http://bestchitosan.com/e_productshow/?19-Industrial-Grade-Chitosan-19.html
http://bestchitosan.com/e_productshow/?18-Food-Grade-Chitosan-18.html
http://bestchitosan.com/e_products/?3-0-1-Chitosan-Oligosaccharide.html

 

[whatthe215]

Anyone who has duds, spend the $400 for a good microscope and 4MP+ camera. Spend a couple hours searching the 0.5-1.5mm thin outer layer of stem 'skin.' Just look for movement and then stare at that spot for a minute lol they're really translucent.

I totally forgot I took that video, here it is again for anyone who hasn't seen it. Sample taken from stem ~4" above soil line.

[youtubeif]hfJfMgmIiTs[/youtubeif]


And yeah, obsoul33t had them outdoors last year. Confirmed via microscope.

 

[StudenTeacher]

I'm starting off with just 1 gram in my 40g rez.. What are you mixing it at??


I looked at that site. Man you talk about confusing info. I like the Liquid stuff.

All of these say can be used for Agriculture..
http://bestchitosan.com/e_productshow/?35-Agricultural-Chitosan-35.html
http://bestchitosan.com/e_productshow/?19-Industrial-Grade-Chitosan-19.html
http://bestchitosan.com/e_productshow/?18-Food-Grade-Chitosan-18.html
http://bestchitosan.com/e_products/?3-0-1-Chitosan-Oligosaccharide.html

Yeah, confusing as hell. I ordered based on info from a post from Storm Shadow a while back. I would have been scratching my head otherwise. I've only used it for a month so I have no idea of the potential results. I ran out about a week before the hygrozyme incident, which made me think the damage was pest related. I'll give it a full run this time, but no J1 of course, which is the one that dudded , so it won't really be the best test I suppose.

 

[Hammerhead]

How much are you using(mix ratio)

 

[StudenTeacher]

Here is the dud J1, which believe me looks waaaaay more frosty in this photo than it does in real life, due to the flash on the camera. No smell, weak flower set, poor trich production=classic dud. This one looks nice for a dud though, probably because of the chitosan use for the month. I started using it two weeks into flower so the pest?/pathogen? had already taken hold. Then I ran out.

The veg pics are a shark shock And a sour kush. Ten days ago were perfect, 8 days ago they were pretty much dead, five days ago they started turning around and now, well the pics speak for themselves. They look like shit but will make it. I cut off the top half of the plants last week due to excessive wilting and burning (weird combo I know).

 

[StudenTeacher]

How much are you using(mix ratio)

I'm using 1g per gallon, as per Storms recommendation
I haven't had any duds for three runs, every since I moved and started over with seeds. I got it a couple months ago to correct the weird J1, so it seems we're both learning as we go. First important lesson for me in regards to the chitosan is: don't run out of it if you want to find out how it works, lol.

 

[StudenTeacher]

So, I spoke to the lab and the preliminary results are pythium and fusarium. She said she's not sure what kind of fusarium but she'll send the results when available. She mentioned that pythium is common in low quantities and may not have been the problem. She also mentioned that fusarium may not have been the problem, since she can't tell which kind it is. She did say that fusarium can effect only a couple branches, or half the plant, or of course the whole plant. So, sounds very similar to other results I've seen online. Now that a have a couple hundred extra dollars I'm ready to send the sample to nematodes inc. Sorry about the delay on that. The j1 is a classic dud, so three weeks from Monday we'll have a more definitive answer on what causes this. Either way I have ogbiowar now and regalia so I'm ready for battle.

Negative for viruses.

My friend that gave me the j1 cut is getting 2lb a light of perfect buds with a single ended bulb and 2.75 with the de phantoms. I've seen streaks on his girls over the years but he's always pulling weight and never had a dud, except a gsc clone he got like 2 years ago and discarded. He uses great white and one shot of eagle @flip so makes since that his regime would suppress something like fusarium. Last year he was down to 1.75 a light and started a new mother plant and now he's back to two. Since my mothers are fried, and my environment contaminated, I'm going to get more clones from him, no j1, and I'm going to add the other bennies and hope for the best. Whatever was in my last house was impossible to get rid of and this place will be no different. Grow room is in master, also in garage on opposite side of house, 2000sqft of living space in between, carpet, furniture, etc. If this crop doesn't work out I'll move and start from seeds again.

 

[Hammerhead]

what is j1?

 

[Hammerhead]

I use other sources of Chitin does the same as this powder.. This powder stuff was a gift. I will try it. My main source is Crab shell and Insect frass..

 

[StudenTeacher]

J1 is a Jack Herrer x skunk #1 I think. It was popular in Cali med clone scene 5-10 years ago, not as much nowadays. 9weeks and 2lbs of yummy hazy delights. Smells like lemons, melons, and bananas.

 

[Kygiacomo!!!]

I use other sources of Chitin does the same as this powder.. This powder stuff was a gift. I will try it. My main source is Crab shell and Insect frass..

frass rocks! thats my fav chitosan source as well. i mix in 1/8th of aloe in with frass and water in and get the WOW factor on growth and resin production..the bat guano i use to water in also has chitosan in it