hydro teas

[CT Guy]

CT Guy - It sounds like you think you know what you're talking about, but I find no logic in your statements. What is .08cfm/gal? Other than 0.08 cubic feet per minute per gallon. Where is that number coming from? What does bubbling at a rate of 0.08cfm/gal do?
I have a big problem with the things you claim because these things obviously are not true, I've kept aquarium fish for years, the principals are all the same, just instead of microscopic organisms eating fish poop they're eating bat poop and worm poop. And why would aerobic bacteria need more dissolved O2 than fish? Fish swim, have more biomass, therefor need more oxygen to survive. And the bacteria and fish coexist, using the same oxygen supply. I'm certainly no scientist though, these are all just simple observations made without a microscope.

It's been established that you need to maintain dissolved oxygen levels above 6 mg/litre by Dr. Elaine Ingham if you wish to select for aerobic bacteria, fungi, and protozoa. You can check out her website www.soilfoodweb.com

This is the industry standard, well documented, researched, and established.

Anerobic microbes can have a place in the soil food web as well. Check out "Effective Microorganisms" to learn more.

If you're making ACT (which is what we've been discussing), all of my above comments are accurate in regards to making a good tea.

 

[Microbeman]

Hi Guys,

I'll take the blame for the .08 CFM/gal. Actually that and higher are optimum but you can get by with a .05 CFM/gal minimum if you design a good system. I established this several years ago when I first started investigating compost tea. I built and tested a wide variety of styles of brewers (1/2 gallon through to 1200 gallons) and measured the dissolved oxygen levels at different periods through the brew with various amounts of compost and foodstock added. After coming up with my range of .05 to .08> I contacted someone who was doing similar work and asked them what dissolved oxygen (DO2) level they recommended. They said .08 CFM/gal. Bingo!

I also raised tropical fish for many years. To my parents' dismay, I had about 30 aquariums in the basement at age 12 and was conducting strange experiments. An aerated compost tea brewer has very different DO2 requirements than a fish aquarium. In a compost tea brewer you are encouraging enormous bacterial blooms and these bacteria produce copious amounts of CO2 as they eat and reproduce, so to maintain the DO2 at a level sufficient to keep the anaerobic bacteria from taking over you need to 'super saturate' the liquid with DO2. I don't agree that anaerobic organisms are all bad but I do agree they should be kept at a minimum.

Compost is actually something made by man. The materials have been altered by aerobic microbes so they have a different consistency than their original form. (Vermicompost is pretty similar but made by worms)Nutrients are sequestered in a form which is available again to microbes which make them available to plants. There are natural substances like humus which are very similar to manmade compost but I would not call salt water or sea salt one of them.

To be correct, compost tea must be made with compost. Guano is a manure, although I believe there is composted guano available.

Contrary to what CT Guy has hypothesized, I think if I were going to try organic hydroponics again, I would use my resevoir as my brewer but I would be very cautious in my design to ensure a high rate of flow and would monitor the DO2 regularly. I would likely ad foods and compost in a mesh bag every 48 hours or so. I would not manipulate pH. That is up to the microbes.

 

[osirica420]

double post

 

[osirica420]

I honestly think you guys are over thinking this to the point its not making any sense...

If i bubbled seaweed, guano and worm juice it would grow perfectly healthy plants..
Grown this way they may outperfom some chemical grows...

So as the threads stands you are tryin to say you cant grow the way i am currently growing but i am doing it and doin it quite well for my first time....

So because i am not using actual dirt its not compost???

So what if i used nothing but worm casting and sea minerals you going to tell me that is not a compost tea either?

According to the defintions below we are all making compost tea regardless of having manure in it..

I am sorry we dont follow your exact view, but we are allowed to have our own defintions...
truth is always given in halves...



the dictionary says compost means:

1. A mixture of decaying organic matter, as from leaves and manure, used to improve soil structure and provide nutrients.
2. A composition; a mixture.

Definitions of compost on the Web:

* convert to compost; "compost organic debris"
* a mixture of decaying vegetation and manure; used as a fertilizer
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* ''''''Compost'''' ( or US'' ) is the end result of controlled aerobic decomposition of organic matter known as composting. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compost

* The decayed remains of organic matter that has rotted into a natural fertilizer; To produce compost, let organic matter decay into fertilzer
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/compost

* Composting is the purposeful biodegradation of organic matter, such as yard and food waste. The decomposition is performed by micro-organisms ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting

* A mixture of decomposing vegetable refuse, manure, etc., for fertilizing and conditioning soil.
weblife.org/humanure/glossary.html

* Decomposed organic material that is produced when bacteria in soil break down garbage and biodegradable trash, making organic fertilizer. ...
www.nsc.org/ehc/glossary.html

* Process whereby organic wastes, including food wastes, paper and yard wastes, decompose naturally, resulting in a product rich in minerals and ideal for gardening and farming as a soil conditioner, mulch, resurfacing material or landfill cover
www.egreenideas.com/glossary.php

* Partially decomposed organic plant and animal matter used as a soil conditioner or fertilizer.
chs.tvusd.k12.ca.us/~kmcfadden/Chapter%2010%20Vocabulary%20List.doc

* composting - The process of degrading organic material by microorganisms in aerobic conditions.
https://www.bankrate.com/nydn/news/energy-environment-2007/environmental_glossary_a3.asp

 

[CT Guy]

Osirica,

The issue with the guano is not that it's a manure, but rather that it has been fully composted. The composting process removes the pathogens and breaks down the material. Manure is an ingredient that can be used in compost, but is not compost in and of itself. I think this is a crucial difference.

MM,

You would really brew in your resevoir? How would you avoid bio-film and also maintain good diversity, even with the addition of foods? You would have to design your resevoir with brewing in mind. Do you think you could do this effectively without breaking out the microscope?

 

[osirica420]

I do brew right in my modified waterfarm rez its 7 gallons..

Not all guano products are composted most are actually dried guano or reconstituted and not fully composted...

Organa Guano is one of the only guano products out that is fully composted already that stuff is sooo clean...
i cant order it from where i am at now or i would be using it

Currently I maybe use about 3 shot-glasses of non composted liquid guano, a shot-glass of seaweed and 1000-2000ppm of sea minerals in the 7 gallon rez... it does wonders..

there is no film or foam maybe for a few hrs right after but it goes away fast...
I am not trying to make it 100% but it works well...
I am 3-4 weeks away from harvest it can be done without a microscope...
these buds are already sticky to the touch...

 

[coconaut]

CT Guy and Microbeman, I appreciate your points, but there is far more to consider than you both are.
For starters. Lets forget about CFM/gallon. It's useless. A more reasonable unit of measurement for what we're talking about is milligrams of dissolved oxygen per liter of water. mg/L.
For reference;
fish will perish below 2mg/L dO2.
2 - 4 mg/L fish will be more prone to sickness and may be seen gasping for air near the surface. 5 - 8 mg/L is considered ideal for fishkeeping.
100% saturation is 9.1 mg/l @ 20 degreesC (78f) falling to 7.6 mg/l @ 30 degreesC (86f)

Second, you must consider that varying amounts of compost will require varying amounts of dO2.
1 gram of compost in 5 gallons of water isn't going to need 5mg/L of dissolved O2.
While 1000 grams of compost in 5 gallons of water may.

Third, is time. 1000g of compost in 5 gallons of water will not be composted within 24 hours. While almost certainly 1 gram of compost would be.

Consider, if we put 1000 grams in 5000 gallons of water would that compost as quickly as 1 gram in 5 gallons if we were able to maintain the same amount of dO2 in each?

Lets set up a hypothetical experiment;
We have 2x 5gallon buckets
One has a constant supply of 2mg/L dO2, the other has a constant supply of 5mg/L dO2.
Lets say for every 1mg/L of dO2 we can support 1 billion aerobic bacteria. And each bucket has a equal supply of a food source.
So we have a bucket with 2billion bacteria, and one with 5billion.
Obviously the bucket with 5billion bacteria will consume the food source first.
In the 2billion bacteria bucket, the food source will still be consumed, slower yes, but your end result will still be the same.

 

[coconaut]

And as for what's compost and what isn't;
Compost is anything that's organic that can be composted.
A banana peel, bone meal, hair. Anything. Compost isn't man made, it's made by micro and macro organisms. It doesn't just come from a 'compost bin', it happing everywhere. Dig up some leaf litter next time you're in a forest.. it's composting.
A worm can eat some table scraps and poop it out, that compost. Microbes can then eat that worm poop, it's still compost.
Bat guano is certainly compost. It's led a sheltered life in a cave for hundreds of years, unexposed to water. Water is life, no water, no microbes, no decomposition. Just because it's dust doesn't mean it doesn't contain organic matter.

 

[CT Guy]

And as for what's compost and what isn't;
Compost is anything that's organic that can be composted.
A banana peel, bone meal, hair. Anything. Compost isn't man made, it's made by micro and macro organisms. It doesn't just come from a 'compost bin', it happing everywhere. Dig up some leaf litter next time you're in a forest.. it's composting.
A worm can eat some table scraps and poop it out, that compost. Microbes can then eat that worm poop, it's still compost.
Bat guano is certainly compost. It's led a sheltered life in a cave for hundreds of years, unexposed to water. Water is life, no water, no microbes, no decomposition. Just because it's dust doesn't mean it doesn't contain organic matter.

You raise good points in your first post regarding aeration levels required based on inputs. It's true that using less compost or not adding foods will effect the dissolved oxygen levels in your system. If you wanted, you could even get away with simple stirring, provided you're not adding foods to the water and compost and simply extracting the microbes.

Everything I've posted is under the supposition that you're attempting to maximize your aerobic biological growth and diversity. If you just with to add a small amount of biology, then using small inputs would probably be fine. I still think monocultures will develop over time.

If it makes things easier, the pump I use on 5 gals is 51 liters/min, with a coil design made of pvc rather than airstones.

As far as compost goes, the material needs to be processed by one of three methods to truly be compost (static, thermal, or vermicomposting). Like MM said, I'm sure there is composted guano, but by your definition everything is compost, just by being organic matter. The organisms need a chance to break everything down before you can call it compost. In addition, the definition in the industry is that compost is pathogen free, meaning that if you use manure as a starter material it is processed in a way to remove any pathogens before it is considered finished. What's unfinished compost called? Well, I just look at is as decomposing organic matter. "composting" material in the woods and finished "compost" are totally different creatures in my opinion.

 

[osirica420]

As far as I am concerned as long as the plants are getting fed and roots are healthy all is good..

I can understand what your saying though...

If i were to try adding 1 tablespoon a gallon of molasses i could potentially kill all Bactria due to not enough O2 and kill plant cuz no O2 or food..
i have tried before and ended up with slime on roots.. its no good..

If i even add a small amount of molasses to my reservoir i can see how it changes the way the water bubbles..
Molasses must be prebubbled and added in small amounts to give a good effect..

But seaweed and guano and sea minerals you really cant go wrong..
Keep your mix light and potent..so the bennies can feed the plant and give o2 to your roots..

According to my definition of things i am aerating my compost tea in the same reservoir i am growing my plants in..

 

[coconaut]

CT Guy - Yes simple stirring is good enough for aeration, bubbles themselves do very little to aerate water while they're travelling to the surface, aeration is a product of the bubbles breaking the surface of the water, causing waves and turbulence. I mentioned earlier the system I'm building will have the outtake of the filter at or above the surface of the water, this will assist in aeration as well as breaking foam down and recycling it back into the system.
My system isn't attempting to "maximize [my] aerobic biological growth and diversity".
Truthfully I don't care about my microheard all that much, they're only a vehicle to my end result. The end result I'm looking for is NPK ca mg + trace. that's all. not microbes. They're just eating whatever I put into my system to give me my output.
I don't want an explosive microheard, I don't want to refresh compost everyday, my system is being setup with the goal that I only need to replace compost once a week.
My rez capacity will be 8 gallons, that will be a constant in my equation.
Airflow (unknown) but for arguements sake, lets just say 2mg/L dO2, this is a variable in my equation, I can increase or decrease the amount of airflow from my airpump.
Amount of compost, also variable.
Time, this is a constant of one week, that what I'm aiming for.

So, If 10grams of compost is composted in 2 days at 2mg/L dO2.
If I increase dO2 to 4mg/L, perhaps I get 10grams composted in 1 day.
Then, if I add 70grams, I may expect it may take 7 days to be composted.
Now of course I'm making these number up, I'm just speculating at the moment.
But this is exactly how I'm going to be experimenting in the next few days.

 

[Microbeman]

For starters. Lets forget about CFM/gallon. It's useless. A more reasonable unit of measurement for what we're talking about is milligrams of dissolved oxygen per liter of water. mg/L.

Mg/L = PPM. It is established that a minimum 6 PPM is required to sustain predominently aerobic bacteria in a compost tea. In case you were not in reading mode, this is how I established the parameters; reading the DO2

Second, you must consider that varying amounts of compost will require varying amounts of dO2.
1 gram of compost in 5 gallons of water isn't going to need 5mg/L of dissolved O2.
While 1000 grams of compost in 5 gallons of water may.

REALLY??? It is pretty much basic knowledge if you are brewing compost tea that the amount of compost used ranges from 2% to 4% by volume. Do some research. Before speaking.

For reference;
fish will perish below 2mg/L dO2.
2 - 4 mg/L fish will be more prone to sickness and may be seen gasping for air near the surface. 5 - 8 mg/L is considered ideal for fishkeeping.
100% saturation is 9.1 mg/l @ 20 degreesC (78f) falling to 7.6 mg/l @ 30 degreesC (86f)

This is why I brought up supersaturation (look it up) and mentioned that comparing the DO2 requirements of fish and bacterial blooms challenged by lots of OM in the water, is not valid. I ran my tests using 2.38% compost 0.50 to 0.75% molasses (other foods) water with TDS of approx. 30 PPM, temperature around 65 to 72 F.
I actually measured the air flow from the pumps used except for the 95 CFM pump on the 1200 gallon brewer.
The CFM/gal measurement of the flow from the pump was the parameter necessary to maintain 6 PPM DO2. Can you not comprehend this?

Third, is time. 1000g of compost in 5 gallons of water will not be composted within 24 hours. While almost certainly 1 gram of compost would be.

What on earth are you talking about??? We are extracting microbes FROM compost and multiplying them NOT composting! The idea is to extract and multiply microbes in order to have a sufficient population of bacteria/archaea and protozoa to support nutrient cycling (protozoa eat bacteria/archaea thereby feeding plants)

Osirica:

I was not saying you don’t have something going on there. I was just saying that commonly compost tea refers to tea made with compost; other teas are refered to as manure tea, plant tea, herb tea, mineral tea, etc.

I’d be interested to hear about your whole program in detail if you don’t mind.

If I were going to do an organic hydroponic setup again, I’d brew aerated tea right in the resevoir utilizing one or more air lifts (like my microbulator) and use a vertical flow through system (like the cage) which generates lots of air and has a lot of release points for CO2. I would check the DO2 regularly plus keep track of the microbe population with a microscope.

 

[Microbeman]

CT Guy - Yes simple stirring is good enough for aeration, bubbles themselves do very little to aerate water while they're travelling to the surface, aeration is a product of the bubbles breaking the surface of the water, causing waves and turbulence. I mentioned earlier the system I'm building will have the outtake of the filter at or above the surface of the water, this will assist in aeration as well as breaking foam down and recycling it back into the system.
My system isn't attempting to "maximize [my] aerobic biological growth and diversity".
Truthfully I don't care about my microheard all that much, they're only a vehicle to my end result. The end result I'm looking for is NPK ca mg + trace. that's all. not microbes. They're just eating whatever I put into my system to give me my output.
I don't want an explosive microheard, I don't want to refresh compost everyday, my system is being setup with the goal that I only need to replace compost once a week.
My rez capacity will be 8 gallons, that will be a constant in my equation.
Airflow (unknown) but for arguements sake, lets just say 2mg/L dO2, this is a variable in my equation, I can increase or decrease the amount of airflow from my airpump.
Amount of compost, also variable.
Time, this is a constant of one week, that what I'm aiming for.

So, If 10grams of compost is composted in 2 days at 2mg/L dO2.
If I increase dO2 to 4mg/L, perhaps I get 10grams composted in 1 day.
Then, if I add 70grams, I may expect it may take 7 days to be composted.
Now of course I'm making these number up, I'm just speculating at the moment.
But this is exactly how I'm going to be experimenting in the next few days.

What you have outlined is not organic. Is this not the organic hydro forum? No microbial nutrient cycling = not organic. Do some reading.

 

[coconaut]

Wow, you're a douche. I have no time for people like you.

 

[osirica420]

yea bro lets keep this civil..

I think CTGUY is are more about creating bacteria popluations, both your knowledge levels are up there as far as that goes..

But the majority of us are more interested in growing plants in water with ONLY organic substances...
Which I think was the main posters objective here..

Bottoms line is you can grow plants by composting organic elements in water with a air pump right in your reservoir..
I am sure creating a tea the way ctguy does and adding it to our reservoir would help..
But with you guy's bacteria style tea making it would be almost impossible to get buds the size of bats with just using worm tea extract or humus extract for that matter...
The whole discrepancy here seems to be word play..

Guano, Seaweed and Sea Minerals can grow colas the size of a 2 liter coke bottle...

 

[osirica420]

What you have outlined is not organic. Is this not the organic hydro forum? No microbial nutrient cycling = not organic. Do some reading.

what are you talking about can you explain what you mean because he is speaking of organic as far i can understand him?

Can you provide pictures of your organically hydro grown plants please cause all this talk no pictures is not getting you too far...

when you respond please have some type of pic of a plant grown in water ONLY with a shot of the roots, if you cant provide this then we must assume you must not have any experience in doing so....

which would further credit my opinion that your just speaking about what you have read and really have no experience whatsoever in growing fat organic colas in water only

 

[coconaut]

I'm still looking for the 'microbial nutrient cycling' forum

 

[Microbeman]

Oy. Duh!

 

[CT Guy]

You guys are completely missing MM's point altogether. In an organic system what feeds the plant? I'll give you a hint, it's already been mentioned in the thread. If you can figure that out, you'll understand why he said that.

Secondly, I think asking for pictures is the just about the stupidest validation of growing methodology out there. I'd much rather see some research or scientific evidence to validate your method then a picture of some fat buds.

The issue here is that what you guys call "aerated compost tea" is NOT that at all. When people start creating definitions that fit what they're doing, it takes away from the original concept. Aerated compost tea, by definition, uses compost. It also contains bacteria/archea, fungi, and protozoa. I can pretty much guarantee your tea does not. It's probably a bacterial manure tea. That's fine, but realize what you're making and call it what it is so that others don't get confused.

Of course, if the point isn't the biology, then why use any compost at all. Just throw in your salts, seaweed, and guano.

Please, please, please take the time to read the links I already provided, especially the soilfoodweb.com one. I think it would really help this discussion so you can understand what we're talking about.

 

[osirica420]

pictures are a source of scientific verification that is all we ask...

I got a compost maker in my kitchen what does it do it breaks down organic material..
I got the same things happening in my rez i am breaking down/composting organic material into a "composted tea"
Please stop playing these word games to make yourself seem correct... when in fact we are all correct.

as stated truth comes in halves..

We all know bacteria/fungi is what feed plants in a 100% organic setup..
And if i did not have sufficient populations my plants would of been dead a while ago..
My molasses trials have told me this...

I will check out that website a bit later today..