How to Best PRESERVE a Strain with Limited Space/Effort

[CannaZen]

my way you always get winner; l it stacks up from the very beginning collectively, i have all the traits i wish to assemble in seed.c \\ starting from the beginning. working up to stacking 100 growing a plant at once instead of stacks of 10s because you could make a miss mono hybridizing the stacks.


okay so preserving a strain you got it spot on but maintaining and breeding a variety takes work, those seed/plant count are intended to grow to survive and evolve.



take 10, grow 10 of each one out and then plant again, growing out 100 plants grown from 10s of 10 means greater selection by the power of 10 not only will recessive traits show but also the dominant one ending with dominant over recessive traits for say apical seed plants with a single seed at the crown of the meristem. You really miss out on great plant finding.



Mean seeds growing the plant from the ground up instead of the top down model lets start with what is a stack, a combination of or recombination of the one fold principle where hybrid are combined

5 generations were run,. 1 gen crossed with 2 and 3 separately and then crossed together at gen 4 what would gen 5 seeds be;\ hybrid.

 

[romanoweed]

Thanking for talking over what i wrote wich Shows better what i wanted to say BUT i never said i wanna get ahold of that Observaions-Run where i grow stuff out for observation. I will cull them all. I will only observe! I ment that: EVERY SECOUND RUN I MAKE AN OBSERVATION RUN, WITH THE HELP OF CROSSING EVERY SELECTED PLANT X EVERY SELECTE PLANT I GET A VERY CLEAR PICTURE IF MY PREDICTION WAS RIGHT, AFTER THAT KNOWLEDGE, I CAN START AGAIN BUT WITH 100 PERCENT KNOWLEDGE WHAT I DID, OR DID WRONG.


hope you get the whats the full Plan. Incase i had seen that i had a superb winner, and all predictions were insanely spot on, then i could contionue with the winnercross-batch.. but if not i will just go back, do a better selection.


peace

 

[romanoweed]

Do you grow your Plants till they flower to be able to make your Selectiondecision? Or do you cull the bad ones already while Vegetation? I actually dont know that.

 

[romanoweed]

My Plan for preserving high Number of Plants insted of a few Elite Plants, minimal Space
　
Lets agree there are ever a Percentage of bad Plants, say 50 Percent

thats why i will cull 50 Plants of 100 (Red color)
My Idea is to get ahold of 50 Plants. I thought i could pair each of these with opposite Traits, meaning: a Potency Plant with a very subtile Plant (but not weak/bad, like said bads are culled) .
The Idea behind is that if i pair the Potency Plant with a Potency Plant i will never have a fullspectrum Seed in my Hand, unless i cross the different ones together. Wich is nearly impossible with 50 Lines, that would take Ages.
But there is a Danger in crossing opposite , its that i still dont know if i culled all the bad Traits and it would be much saver to pair the shiny treaving Potency Plants together, more easily visible.
So i end up with say 33 Percent of my choosen Plants (orange colored, unexpected bad Pl.) fucking the choosen Plants up .
So i end up with only 2/3 in fact good Lines (green color), but then fucked up from bad ones.
But even biggest Problem, i will predominantly fuck up the Potency Plants IF i cross with very opposite Traits, cause the opposite will often be very subtile Plants, and These are higher suspected to be the wrong choosen ones.
like in next Graph:
　

　
The Result is : 2/3 of the 50 Plants consist of fucked up Genes. Only 1/3 is bad-Traitfree.
Solution:
Actually easy: we make a secound Cross wheree we really Pair the Potency Plants with the Potency Plants, similar Traits together! So we ever end up with 2/3 of the 50 Plants beeing in fact good. like in next Graph:
　

　
I will then breed with bouth , when in the next Round, so i will be somewhere between 1/3 and 2 /3 in fact good Strains. I then got ever some Lines ready to smoke (fullspectrum) , but i have also ever some ready for further breeding.
　
IMPORTANT: the Lines with the similar-Traits-combined should from now on be held separate, and only be paired similar Traits to similar Traits further on, CAUSE bad Influences CAN show up very late in Generation 4 or so im told.
And the Line with different Traits-Pairing from now on should ever make a similar Traits Cross, aswell as a opposite Traits Cross, so if there are 2/3 fuckeups i can ever take the similar-Trait Cross for futher breeding, but i can also smoke the fullspectrum Plants.
　
So again: the opposite-Trais Line will EACH Generation being split into similar AND opposite aswell, besides from the similar Trait-Line wich will be held separate each Generation, by crossed simlar only.
　
In Overall, when attemting that Plant i will have to grow each Selection out (or i know the Line so good already that i know what i doo) , cause 1: i include a high Percentage of choosen Plants and most important: i am combining very different loocking Plants, wich again bares a high Risk in fucking up substencially the Lines. If i wouldnt do that then this bad Genes would spread in the next Generations like F2 over every Line fast. My Plan here is to grow just one Individual then i have the highest Observation/Space - Ratio, CAUSE Selection affects the AVERAGES, the average Apperance , not the Exeptions. That way i can observe the truth fast.

 

[romanoweed]

Thats how i would do it over the Generations like described, how i would split the Oppo. x Oppo., and Same x Same, for Savety namely of late appearing Bad sides, and fucke ups.

 

[CannaZen]

you just dont know what to look for until you grow you may decide on crossing something else. as with allele frequencies you select for the extremes./ and blend. you could bottleneck that extreme selecting away from the future.
i understand it is not without limitation, doing one plant 10 plants from seed and carrying on that for generation you just cant select on blend for one plant each gen when you already have all the traits you wish to assemble in each plant from a genotype as for pheno. it will be overlooked, overshadowed.


it can come back to you. doing one plant of each plant every generation may still preserve the traits culling mid season to later reintroduce genes again with filial zero aka seedplant parents and starting again from chosen gen. cutting down on plant counts after traits show. it wont show full spectrum but combining only the best traits for later recrossing hybrid stack with filial zero recombination and repetition; homogeneity will occur so when i have this plant that stacks 10 you can cross 10 times a geno as for pheno if only done repetition each gen from one plant i may not have dominant over recessive phenotype architecture. the problem with bottlenecks is it dont stack with expansion.

 

[romanoweed]

Short clarification: Crossing the Opposites is rather not ment as a Must, but as a Can. Like being able to cross a given Trait with whatever Trait you wish! Probaly something complimetary, or something competative, something progressive, or opposite, whatever. But my Plan Shows how to be able to doo so.

 

[TychoMonolyth]

.

 

[romanoweed]

yeah cannazen, they say i should select strong instead of quiet strong. Agree. Lets look what the Goals are: it is preserving. They say i should preserve as much numbers, and i should select Strong as a basic idea, yes.
So i wanna do bouth together.
The only way you probably raise the Idea that i dont have to watch for high numbers is that you can assure me atleast that these 70s Gemstones were going trough lownumbered (strongly selected) inbreeding at the end. They were probably going trough strong inbreeding, but then combined afterwords, therefore carrying broad Gen-base again trough recombination, but did they go trough a strong selection at the End, plausible? If so, why do they carry broad genetic base?
I think a soft selection like described (not a weak or wrong one) would serve my Wish of a best possible Preservation.

 

[romanoweed]

Ok, on this part i can say Yes to it Cannazen: you say : i should combine my different Lines, say the Potency-Line with the Beautiful-Line with the Subtile-Line at the very End like Subgroups. Did i understan that right i think..
So: ( Potency x ( Beautyfull x Subtile ))
This would be my Smokeready Seedstash.
But going back to the Quest for Broad Genetical Base AND the Strong Selection. We see this is practically Impossible for a Homegrower. That would mean to combine say Potency-Line , Steady-power-Line, Brilliant-look-Line, colorfull-look-Line, creamy-subtile-Line, opaque-subtile-Line ... And so on, would take ages to combine say 50 Lines all in Subgroups.
So..
I think the Solution , to have this 3 Wishes served to a best possible Degree: 1: Broad Genetic, 2: Strong Selection, 3 : All combined in one Line, would be found in my approach.
The Idea of the regular Selection-Approach, then combyning one, or two , Serves only the 2: Strong Selection, and serves minimally 3 : All Combined (since it includes very few Traits/Genetic Base of the initial Seedbatch).
So, my Approch isnt perfect, but i could imagine fits BEST POSSIBLE in minimal Space/Effort Quest.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

You do not preserve any Cannabis landrace with less than 1000 females and 1000 males, freely pollinating, Cannabis is a Heterozygous Dioecious Obligate Outcrosser and any Cannabis variety requires high numbers every reproduction or it will lose genes and traits.
Cannabis is not a tomato.

Statistical genetic considerations for maintaining germ plasm collections
J. Crossa 1993
https://pubag.nal.usda.gov/download/14626/PDF

-SamS

 

[CannaZen]

so i made f1 hybrid crossing ss#1 with auto afghanica but then there are a bunch of other plants with pink pistils, large mid section broad leaf etc. but they all got hybridized with SS#1. That would be the observation.


how to stack all the traits into one uniformity. I would guess to grow the same quantity again next gen but that would only be preservation and not the stacking of the aspect especially considering the seeds had been hybridized and face a random roll of the deck to stabilize traits in one plant uniformity, Stacks of 10 of 10 of 10 but 100 works if you follow only one filial zero, one plant descent line breed 10 plants grown each gen and 100 generations grown. natural selection is survival of the fittest so basically if it survives the plant its reproducing a lot like 100 plants at a time crossing meaning greater recombination of propagating successive traits.

 

[romanoweed]

I didnt really understand what you wrote in last post Cannazen. You compare stacking of gen 1: 10 plant , gen 2: 10 plant, gen3: 10 plant crossbreed each, against 100 plants crossbreed in gen 1 ?


My Anwser is: i would rather not work for now, instad for the Future, so: 100 plants in
gen. 1 , probably thats all i will make. But tomorrow i have a nice Basis, probably by then i found someone where it became legal, so he would beg me for my seedbasis. But shure is, at any Point in Time i would have something for the Future , dont "Need" my initial open pollination. Im save at each Moment (after growing out).
By the way, already in gen.2 each of the 100 Lines would consist already of 4 Traits (2 from gen. 1 and 2 from gen.2, makes 4)
Do i end up with a sellable Seedline fast? rather not.


Since i will ever produce Seeds instead of grow my lines out, and wont consume the last seed for quiet a while i can accept Variation. I would anywan not getting the benefit of stabylisation for quiet a while. So i decide to only go one small Step , and have the Line save tomorrow.


its like this:
https://youtu.be/gg5Ncc9GODY?t=2m45s

 

[CannaZen]

its my english, apologies. I'm talking about from one plant out of 10 every gen for f10 or f100 and or 100 plants at once. its difficult i understand./

 

[romanoweed]

that is basically like i understood it then. thanx. my anwser to it is above then.

 

[romanoweed]

Ok, i can further lay out the Model you presented Cannazen:
if first of 10 Generations goes trough one Trait-Selection, say Potency, next goes trough say Beauty... by 10th Generation you selected for many different Traits.


Hmm, it includes , like told a strong Selection, still, even you go trough a spectral Selection into no particullar direction.




The back and Fourth/Layering itselve in your Model is, dont know what it brings, may be interesting. But you could do Layering also with my Approach . You dont HAVE to ever cross very opposite with my Model INSTEAD could well gather some of similar Traits in each Generation, like your Wish.
In the End , what will define the Percentages, is the sequence of when diffrent Traits are combined.
Probably this is hard to predict how much you want if you plan on combining many Traits. Could you tell how much percentage of potency, of beaty, of robustness and of subtileness your Dreamplant should consist? my feel says its hard cause there might be overlapping Traits wich stack up unpredictable, or just hard to predict.
My Approach is to ignore the percentages Quest, and just Combine.. probably this is crutial, but this is far far in the future ..

 

[Dropped Cat]

You do not preserve any Cannabis landrace with less than 1000 females and 1000 males, freely pollinating. Cannabis is not a tomato.-SamS

OP question answered, thanks Sam.

I do open pollination with four or five females and two males
with any given project.

Lots of traits kept, many lost, as preservation is not my goal,
perhaps my contribution to this thread is null.

A crap shoot at best, but I work it micro style, no choice I have.

My selections down stream are genetically reduced,
but allows me to roll the dice in a rigged game.

So far, my program has produced plants that show my reduced
open pollination is working for me in my conditions.

I recently crossed one of your thunks with a White Rhino,
the goal to have plants, F1 from those P1's.

Not a preservation per se, but a cross I'm sure you would like.

Good post, great thread.

 

[romanoweed]

I shouldnt linked just a later Page of the Thread, since now People couldnt make out the Meaning


My Question is how to BEST POSSIBLE preserve a Strain with limited Space/Eff.
How to get most Preservation within Limitations.

 

[romanoweed]

here, someone finished a mango Thai in mid November. normal flowering is written till start Januar:

Last season I grew 4 Mango Thai. These were from the reproduced MT seeds that were what was available last spring. Since then the current version is sourced directly from Thailand/Lao border region.

They got to me a bit late in my spring planting so I had to grow them in cloth pots as my garden spots were all filled. Very classic tropical sativa growth. lanky structure with typical stretch. They were slow to begin flowering compared to the other types I had growing except for a Columbian but by mid September were going good. Then flowering moved fairly fast. Maybe due to being in pots, I don't know for sure, but new pistil growth ceased in mid November and they were basically at their peak and done. I suppose they could have been left longer but at that point weather conditions would have started to degrade them.

Very fruit and citrus aromas like ripe mango, Large bracts and medium density flowers. The 4 plants were quite similar but did show variations from each other. The effect was clean feeling and deceptively strong. Bright and not tiring or sleep inducing. This is the textbook "sativa high". Not down at all. People very accustomed to heavy "indica" effects often complain this doesn't work for them as there is little to no body effect.

So for me, in this terroir, once flowering really started, it was only 8-10 weeks. No going till Christmas or January like is often discussed about Thai and other tropicals. However that could have been driven by being in pots with constricted roots and limited nutrients.

I now have some of the direct from Thailand seeds from the Fall release of MT from RSC. I'll be growing these this season.

 

[Guest]

Good info, does anyone have experience of doing a reproduction with an inbred strains that's lost vigor over the years? Another big issue is the only 'pure' seeds of this most likely se asian old bagseed variety is in fem form due to the original bagseed being from hermi pollen. Only thing I can think of is to introduce a new male, the most suitable in my collection is an old school African sat collected in 82. But then it's not a reproduction... Just a bunch of f1's Is this interesting bagseed doomed? Haha