How to Best PRESERVE a Strain with Limited Space/Effort

[dank.frank]

It's common ag practice. I have a tomato variety I bred. 10 filial generations. I sell these tomatoes as an F1 variety that was outcrossed to a wild Solanum lycopersicum variety. This wild variety introduction is all recessive gene traits so does not interfere with F1 phenotype and will result in the seeds in the F1 fruit being non-viable because of genetic incompatibility.

I do this, so everyone who buys a piece of my life's work doesn't get to copy it and hack it and profit off it. It insures I'm the only one who has this tomato gene stock, yet others still get to enjoy it.

There is nothing "wrong" with using pollination techniques to retain something.

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ALL that aside, it's completely irrelevant in terms of this conversation and everything I've posted prior in relation to cannabis.

Your concept of feminized seeds resulting in automatic in-breeding depression is a myth and a false narrative. It's more accurate to say - your landraces ARE landraces simply because of regional isolation that has resulted in them becoming so INBRED they stand out as a unique representation.

The way you see this picture in your head - breeding as a whole - is flawed. I don't mean that as an insult. I say that because I'm grasping at straws trying to get you to put aside your preconceived ideas.



dank.Frank

 

[romanoweed]

Dank Frank you seem to say something different : you seem to say the last outcross is inviabe (therms of Reproduction) , but i heard the strong inbreeding introduced it, not the Outcross. If they did it on intentionally, thats another Story,(ok it could show that it only happens if People want it to happen) but i think i wasnt the Message of this Doku.. They seemed to say this extreme Inbreeding is done in the very high rated Favour of Uniformity, wich would make sense, so the tractor doesent have to steer left, right so much, the plants arent ripe at different moments.. in Cost of Viabiity

To Tchomonoloth: Why do we have all Plants: I did never say this happens in one Generation of Collodial Silering Plants, i lett it open how fast, but it seems it happens, and who knows whats in hundert years?? If in hundert years we agree, that inbreeding leads to an end somewhere, at this moment i ask for the Time how fast it happens. Thats what im asking you, how fast it happens, cause i dont know. Only that i heard of it.

By the way i did say all of these Plants are outcrossed in last Step, where they may or may not get a certain Live back. Aswell these Endplants appear to rather never be used for Future Breeding if im not mistaken. They are for one-way use to get the Last bit Fuel out of the Tractor, save the last bit of Fittness of workers, so they dont have to move so much wich in a big Scale can count up, and save Milions of Money.. In Foodindustry just a single Detail can generate Millions of Money, cause the Margins are sooo small.

And also i dont know if inbreeding is possible forever just with other Methods, but i just heard it some times that by Collodial-Silvering longvity is problematic. How Problematic i ask you

 

[dank.frank]

If what you were working with was/is true breeding and you self it - you get the exact same thing. EXACTLY. Every time. This is what stability is.

Inbreeding - creates stability, by eliminating unwanted genetic attributes.

Okay. I'll try.

Keyword - corvariance - it's basically statistical theory to measure the impact of variables which are dependent upon each other will have if altered.

It's used in genomics to create population expectations in hybrids. If you sprout 100,000 seeds - what SHOULD you expect - it's used to compute the Genetic Relationship Matrix.

This is what Phylos was/is doing. It's just standard quantitative tools being applied to cannabis. They are looking at alleles, not qualitative traits.

If you UNDERSTAND that what we call "traits" - size, color, flavor, resin production, stress tolerances, etc - all correlate with alleles.

You start creating lines that express dominant for specific individual alleles so you can add that to anything and know it will be expressed.

In your example above - there are things that did happen. Consumers said - oh, we love bright red round tomatoes. Farmers said, we can't sell anything but bright red round tomatoes. Plant geneticists said, okay - bright, red, round, tomatoes - coming right up. In the process of doing so, market demand increased and fruits not ripening evenly prevented LARGE bumper harvests. So, scientists said, those green shoulders, see how the tomatoes without them ripen faster and more evenly. So - farmers, on their own started selecting and saving seeds without the dark green shoulders.

This is about the time the Rutgers tomato is becoming mainstream.

What they didn't realize until years later when heirlooms made a come back - people said why do bright red round tomatoes not have any flavor? The answer was there are some genes that are dependent upon each other to be expressed properly. The gene responsible for green shoulders was also directly tied to a gene that increased the sugar content and flavonoids. So, then modern heirloom breeders started going WAY back into the old gene pools hunting for tomatoes with dark green shoulders to pair together to create new hybrids, that expressed with new amazing flavors that started disappearing as far back as the 1920's.

The more you know...

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My point being - I actually do understand the value of what you are trying to accomplish, and that is exactly why I'm trying to steer you down a different course that will actually help you achieve those exact same goals - quicker, with more control, and without losing ANYTHING in the process. The conversation is about preservation, after all, and that is not lost on me.

I wouldn't waste your time. It's the only thing we don't get more of.



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

Like the example above - nothing in the greater cannabis genome is lost - no matter how much you bottleneck a line - if you keep a P1 parent.

This is the ENTIRE reason you back cross to a P1. You do so, to reintroduce genes that were lost during a stage of refinement.

People think you back cross to increase the frequency of a given phenotype showing up, and while that is some what "true" it's not the whole picture.

Sure, the genes you want now have a repeating occurrence, but they remain just as buried because you also just added another 10,000,000 other things back into the equation as well.

This is why you isolate for single traits from within the same family. Once you have that single trait appearing with true consistency, then reintroduce the P1 parent to restore the gene pool. You can do that a million times as long as you keep your P1, nothing is ever lost, no matter how much you work it.



dank.Frank

 

[Fuel]

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People think you back cross to increase the frequency of a given phenotype showing up, and while that is some what "true" it's not the whole picture.

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Considering the BX process like a pile on which you stack the cut yeah ^^ It make me mad generally lol

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Damn it, if it was the real deal in practice i will be the most rich breeder of earth with the only one catalog of stabilized elite cuts in seeds ^^
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[dank.frank]

Precisely. Anything past Bx1 - without 4-6 generations in between another backcross only gets you so far. It's not criticism, my understanding has just changed over the years.

That's why it doesn't quite work like everyone thinks it does - NOT - when you have xx + xy every generation. That's why treating cannabis like an autogamous crop and approaching stabilization through feminization and then back crossing to restore traits is more practical than what we have been doing. ESPECIALLY on a small scale.

If you feminize a plant, you'll still see massive amounts of variation, only it's variation that exists within the female, without undue influence from an outside genetic source. Seeing the filial potential of the female before you outcross is an excellent tool if used intelligently.

I say these things because this is exactly how I am going to approach a similar problem faced with similar limitations.



dank.Frank

 

[Fuel]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]treating cannabis like an autogamous crop[/FONT]

It's where we are supposed to fight i guess. I think than we are equally radicals on the subject, with opposite angles.

 

[dank.frank]

I have 38 "kush" S1 seeds I'll be using for a small project. It's no mystery what these are either. You'll just to wait and see the results of such an approach. Because it DOES work.

Sunsimulator and TomHill, both in their own way helped me see things differently and to grasp the bigger picture of what we need to be doing to clear this hump of only finding legitimate stand out plants every 4-5 years as a global community sorting tens of thousands of seeds. Then I spent the last half a decade reading and learning and putting to use the knowledge in practical applications with great success.

As always, proof will be in the results.



dank.Frank

 

[Fuel]

Not sure than i get the point on the "it work", but i know than fems can pay the bills and the school of the kids. I have no doubts at all on it.


Now let's be frank, i can wait to see your Kush S1 in a grow log it will not inform me on anything. Except if it's coming from a cut's reference i already know : OGK, Bubba K and Underdawg. Outside them i will be unable to evaluate your strategy.



And even in this case, i will need to roll it to finalize my opinion on the accuracy ...



To be fair and sane, i've to bring at the same time with me something than i consider competitive to let you known fast from where i'm talking. Unfortunately, nothing below 9 weeks for what i consider as the best ambassadors of my own hybrids. I can bring a Kush hybrid eventually, the only one than have won a slot in my genpool since the time but it will be unfair, i'm not the creator but a mod from here. I'm just refining it for my taste.


If the IC cup is not sterilized like the Spannabis is now, we can maybe do it the next time around a table. Can be fun and a good reason for me to test this event.

 

[romanoweed]

Another Thing is, i heard feminized seeds arent storable as long as normal seeds.. Arent feminized seeds collodial silvered aswell? I read they are only 3 years viable sometimes. i think normal seeds hold easily double the time.
Hmm, and what is if i make Children the normal natural way, after a Seedline was Collodial silvered, does the viability come back?


Everyone has experienced such a Thing?

 

[zif]

Well-made feminized seeds store just as well as regular seeds.

The seed plants should not be exposed to any silver ions. Just the pollen donor. For S1s, it’s better to reverse one clone and seed another clone for optimal seed production.

 

[TychoMonolyth]

Well-made feminized seeds store just as well as regular seeds.

The seed plants should not be exposed to any silver ions. Just the pollen donor. For S1s, it’s better to reverse one clone and seed another clone for optimal seed production.

Selfing is ok if you only have one plant, but you run into a time issue to get the seeds to mature before the plant goes through senescence. Especially with autos. Even with photos, you only get a small amount of ripe seeds. Nothing wrong with that as long as you keep some pollen for the next round when you can give seed production a proper shit kicking.

 

[romanoweed]

Now i got it:

if you cross everything with everything, or say atleast: more with more, as a beginner you could observe Abit what happens if you do this or that. you could START to read while growing out your expectet winners.
And ONCE you found out wich was the best paring (you spent a full run on all those combnations) you can take the whole Seedbatch of the best Pairing, and then start selecting zhe winners fro this Pairing from the hundrets of seeds you still have of this. doing the actuall secound Selection.


I think as a beginner you atully might preffere this secure Way! Cause you can observe what you did. You can still make aprediction wich would be the best Pairing, but see if you were right... One day while , as an experienced you wouldnt Need that doublecheck.


And again: you cant cross really everything with everything, if you do that with 100 x 100 plants you would end up with 10000 progenys to grow out. But if you would check the most favored 10 x 10 Plants, then well: you get 100 Plants to grow out in the next run. You could test These combinations in one single run.. Combined with your Notifications of PRedictions, you could probably get a slightly better Overview what works and what not..

 

[romanoweed]

But Actually..


i could also not cross everthing with everything (10 x 10 combinations), instead produce 10 parings separately . And then grow out 100 Palnts next Run (10 exemplares of each Strain).
Whatever way you do it, growing them out to observe if your Predictions were mostly right or rather random is an important Possibility to learn for Beginners.


I think with Pairings, you risk that one Part of the Couple might hide/mask the predicted Results.. Where with everything x everything, you have 10 differetn Partners, therefore no hiding possible, since all 10 Partners could have fitted better.. atlest they fit randomly well.. right? and some of 10 will fit overly well, right? So, everything x everything lets you observe better what you did. No risk of hiding/masking ..


What im asking me: how much more readable would the results become if i observe each Pairing separately (incase i made separate Pairings), therefore observe a higher Number of that particular one Pairing... namely 10 Plants, opposed to one Plant, but with 9 other combinations with the same Exemplare-Parent..?

 

[CannaZen]

your talking about grow 100 plants each generation as opposed to 10 x 10 each gen as the act of observation the for loop (random selection); versus selective selection (selection that changes each generation), Line breeding.\ it also becomes more advanced math with times arrow, I want to end up with 4 plants , 2 different males and 2 different females. Obso x gen 1 or pheno #1 for instance.

 

[romanoweed]

No Cannaz, i wanna clarify: in the last two Posts i ment CHOSEN PLANTS meaning 10 x 10 Plants against CHOSEN PLANTS each Pairing separate meaning 10 Strains and each growing out 10 Individuals.


Bouth seleted, but the Idea is to get a better Observation trough one of bouth Examples!

 

[CannaZen]

yea i know you mean growing out 10 plants each grown out 100 generations means selecting on the male and female traits individually

 

[romanoweed]

No , not that.


Its about that Scenario: Yourselve as an Beginner wants to find out if you are able to breed, if your selections are sucessfull. Just that Scenario.


So, you would have to grow out the Selections you made , right?


So you would grow them out, and observe how your selections turned out, namely how they compare to the their Parents, right?
So far nothing Special, BUT how to do it efficient and exact? One example: if you just grow out some Plants of a parents Pair, you would not be able to know if you did the best. You would also not know if it was the one or the other Part of the Couple wich was responsible for some of the nice Traits you selected for, right?


Now, the Solution for that Problem is described in that two Posts, namely to cross each choosen Plant to other choosen Plants you found similar or equally nice. Thats all im talking up there, thanx for your thoughts


ITS NORMAL PAIRINGS VERSUS EVEREY SELECTED PLANT X EVERY SELECTED PLANT with the aim of avoiding Masking while observing

 

[CannaZen]

say most plants have most all of the genotype trait you wish to assemble in that one one uniformity but each in separate plants.
That is.


Moving forward i say take 10 plants each and grow 10 plants for each their own to assemble a genotype opposed to pheno, pheno evolves genotype. How to get all the traits from one geno to one pheno.


edit: I see I want to give that some more thought.

 

[romanoweed]

Givem that one will only select every 10th Plant or so, you will ever endup with 10 exemplares to grow out per Couple at the same Growroom with Space for 100 Pl...


Given the Idea to cross every of These Selected Exemplares together, to gain Security what each parental did, like described, one could dedicate each secound Run entirely for growing them out. Trough that you loose double the time/space for it, but with my method you actually have a very high security trough the degree of accurate Obsearvation, with a very clear Picture, wich you wouldnt have if you didnt do every x every selected Plant. So, you also double or quadruple your security about what you doo.
So in the equation you probably gain more.