HOW MANY CHILDREN NEED TO DIE BEFORE GUN LAWS CHANGE IN THE USA

[Three Berries]

Chicago's case is the education. They can't read, do math or anything else that takes logical thinking.

 

[D. B. Doober]

No permit needed for concealed carry in Alaska? That's dope. Probably just assumed everyone will blow their own head off after a while. Not sure. Never had a real gun. Just BB guns. I'm 42. Shot some guns over years. Like 3-4 times. I enjoyed the 357. Beretta was okay too. I had a Chevrolet Beretta. Guns!!!!! Screw rifles and assault weapons the cool guns are revolvers. You talking to me? Bang! Bang! Poop goes that front door. Puff

 

[Brother Nature]

Chicago's case is the education. They can't read, do math or anything else that takes logical thinking.

Neither can some here on this forum, but it clearly doesn't stop them...

 

[moose eater]

No offense but the stereotype I heard of Alaska is there are a lot of social outcast types living there. I have never been, but would love to visit, so I can't say from any personal experience. It does feel like an isolated place with tough long winters, strange light patterns, and would be good for self-isolation though. All of which can add up to crazy shit going down.

Not all are that way, but we have our own label for such folks, and some of them have indeed been involved in some of our more horrendous mass killings. I wrote about Michael Silka earlier; 21 bodies in one day (or so).

We sometimes refer to folks that include such pasts of not having fit in anywhere else as 'End of the Roaders'.

In the end, most of us here are migrants of one sort or another. I stayed because the ways in which I've lived would've not been tolerated anywhere else in the Country that I've found. And because once upon a time I loved the climate, the weather, the freedom and People, etc. Much of that has changed with more influx and social changes.

But a village I worked in during the mid-1980s, when I was a designated village agent, running an ICWA (1978 Indian Child Welfare Act) and Social Services program for a Native non-profit briefly, for 29 villages, on the Alaska Peninsula, experienced a shooting that involved a sense of being trapped in a family fishing operation, ethnic and other sense of morality involving dedication to family, and more; a young man who wanted to join the Marines at age 17, thus requiring his adult care-taker's signature to do so, and the father and auntie/step-mother wouldn't sign, blasted his 5-year old half-brother and step-mother/auntie in the face with a shotgun while they sat in their pickup truck watching the beach in the wee hours of the morning where their comercial set-nets were located. The step-mother/auntie survived a blast to the face, the half-brother wasn't as lucky.

The young man felt trapped, and the family believed they needed him to continue to operate with a fishing income.

I was supposed to land there and provide some sort of mediation and intervention, but after a long while of trying to arrange a flight into that village, to have it coincide with training village councils on the Peninsula re. their rights under ICWA, and having the auntie contact me several times about coming, she then phoned, and in strained cryptic tension, stated I should avoid coming (She apparently knew I wouldn't be leaving if I'd gone). I briefed my then-Director (yes, with no one being wiser, I and the person in that position before me, both had traveled with firearms in our gear), and my Director (who typically had her head buried in a paperback novel any time I found her), focused on respecting the family's wishes for non-intervention.

The same village experienced a true mass murder there another time, not too many years before the killing outlined above.. Generational examples of how to handle serious conflict or stress doesn't help.

Isolation, and a rift/split between traditional cultures; not fitting into the old ways, and rejected by the new ways/society, while existing in a remote location with no roads in or out but boat or aircraft, and lots of dreams that may never come to fruition; hopelessness of a very real sort for too many.. One of the few places I landed in the mid-80s with kids dressed like wanna-be gang-bangers in the middle of nowhere, holding boom boxes to their heads, wearing bowler derbies and sleeveless vests, etc. The media's idea of what was hip or cool.

The Village of MGrath or McCarthy (can't recall which right now; likely both, but I think it was McCarthy that I'm recalling right now) had anorther mass shooting, and a much larger number of bodies. Again, a sense of ostricization, isolation, long term conflict between parties involved, etc. And once the shooting started, it was "in for a penny, in for a pound." Doer was not a newbie.

Outside authority and being shamed played a role in the shooting of a principal and others in Bethel's school years ago; done by a local Native kid. Shame, rejection, public humiliation in the school, etc.

Love tryst in Hydaburg between a young adult male and his underage sweetheart, with alcohol involved at the local dump (their drinking location then); limited 'pickings' in many remote villages can make for strange pairing, too.

Native family in Tanana killed 2 State Troopers who went their to investigate another crime. Personality disorders and cultural rifts.

In other words, it's not just the 'end of the roaders.' Each of those instances largely ivolved situational circumstances that led to a blood bath. Many of the doers were long-time, born and raised locals. Some not.

A former friend of mine went to work for the US Park Service in Chitina decades ago, and the authority changed the old Bruce I'd known. Power went to his head apparently, and he and his (also employed by the USPS) brother were harassing some they believed to be in violation of Park regs (Wrangell-St. Elias Nat'l Park & Perserve at the southern end), well beyond any legal enforcement powers.. As a prank they'd peppered one fellow outside his cabin door with bird shot. Fellow found them in the bar, calmly walked around the back of the bar, grabbed the bartender's .38 revolver from beneath the bar counter, calmly walked up behind Bruce, and put 5 rounds into his kidneys. A shoot-out ensued in the bar, with Bruce's brother returning to their truck and retrieving the shotgun. A lot of resentment in that village when the shooter was sentenced to a moderate time in prison. The community saw the shooter's reaction as somewhat justified by Bruce's and his brother's 'prank' earlier in the evening, as well as their actions leading up to that moment.

The bar tender was also the community EMT, so that was handy.

Bruce wan't that way when I knew him. We ate peyote and drank whisky together at Talkeetna Bluegrass in 1980. A peace-loving, curly red-haired, country hippie with an International Harvester pick-up truck.

I could provide more examples. I won't. The step-mother/auntie and 5-year old in the remote coastal village did me in.

There's a wide array of kilings here, some that I've been too close to, and most of which involved factors other than Axis I mental disorders. Power, desperation, revenge, isolation, finances, property disputes turned deady, and much more. In a place that boasts of itself as "The Last Frontier." We're really not, but that monicker tends to go to some folks' heads, and tends to carry images that maybe shouldn't be..

I will say that the rigid divide between the Trumper extremists with their alternative 'facts', and others, has contributed to a social climate here that is creeping toward a conflict no one will want to read about.

 

[EastCoastGambit]

Hard to get educated when there are major problems at home. Intervention would be key but there are far too few social workers for the need and people snub at the existence and cost of the programs are in place. At least those folks are trying to help the needy and are not just complaining about the problems. Thankful for them.

Hard to educated if malnourished

Hard to get educated if unloved

Hard to get educated if one or more parents are incarcerated

Hard to get educated in the foster system

Hard to get educated when your country/state/city fails you

 

[EastCoastGambit]

Not all are that way, but we have our own label for such folks, and some of them have indeed been involved in some of our more horrendous mass killings. I wrote about Michael Silka earlier; 21 bodies in one day.

We sometimes refer to folks that include such pasts of not having fit in anywhere else as 'End of the Roaders'.

In the end, most of us here are migrants of one sort or another. I stayed because the ways in which I've lived would've not been tolerated anywhere else in the Country that I've found. And because once upon a time I loved the climate, the weather, the freedom and People, etc. Much of that has changed with more influx and social changes.

But a village I worked in during the mid-1980s, when I was a designated village agent, running an ICWA (1978 Indian Child Welfare Act) and Social Services program for a Native non-profit briefly, for 29 villages, on the Alaska Peninsula, experienced a shooting that involved a sense of being trapped in a family fishing operation, ethnic and other sense of morality involving dedication to family, and more; a young man who wanted to join the Marines at age 17, thus requiring his adult care-taker's signature to do so, and the father and auntie/step-mother wouldn't sign, blasted his 5-year old half-brother and step-mother/auntie in the face with a shotgun while they sat in their pickup truck watching the beach in the wee hours of the morning where their comercial set-nets were located. The step-mother/auntie survived a blast to the face, the half-brother wasn't as lucky.

The young man felt trapped, and the family believed they needed him to continue to operate with a fishing income.

I was supposed to land there and provide some sort of mediation and intervention, but after a long while of trying to arrange a flight into that village, to have it coincide with training village councils on the Peninsula re. their rights under ICWA, and having the auntie contact me several times about coming, she then phoned, and in strained cryptic tension, stated I should avoid coming (She apparently knew I wouldn't be leaving if I'd gone). I briefed my then-Director (yes, with no one being wiser, I and the person in that postion before me, both had traveled with firearms in our gear), and my Director (who typically had her head buried in a paperback novel any time I found her), focused on respecting the family's wishes for non-intervention.

The same village experienced a true mass murder there another time, not too many years before the killing outlined above.. Generational exampkes of how to handle serous conflcit or stress doesn't help.

Isolation, and a rift/split between traditional cultures; not fitting into the old ways, and rejected by the new ways/society, while existing in a remote location with no roads in or out but boat or aircraft, and lots of dreams that may never come to fruition; hopelessness of a very real sort for too many.. One of the few places I landed in the mid-80s with kids dressed like wanna-be gang-bangers in the middle of nowhere, holding boom boxes to their heads, wearing bowler derbies and sleeveless vests, etc. The media's idea of what was hip or cool.

The Village of MGrath or McCarthy (can't recall which righrt now; likely both, but I think it was McCarthy that I'm recalling right now) had anorther mass shooting, and a much larger number of bodies. Again, a sense of ostricization, isolation, long term conflict between parties involved, etc. And once the shooting started, it was "in for a penny, in for a pound." Doer was not a newbie.

Outside authority and being shamed played a role in the shooting of a principal and others in Bethel's school years ago; done by a local Native kid. Shame, rejection, public humiliation in the school, etc.

Love tryst in Hydaburg between a young adult male and his underage sweetheart, with alcohol involved aty the local dump (their drinking location then); limited 'pickings' in many remote villages can make for strange pairting, too.

Native family in Tanana killed 2 State Troopers who went their to investigate another crime. Personality disorders and cultural rifts.

In other words, it's not just the 'end of the roaders.' Each of those instances largely ivolved situational circumstances that led to a blood bath. May of the doers were long-time, born and raised locals. Some not.

A former friend of mine went to work for the US Park Service in Chitina decades ago, and the authority changed the old Bruce I'd known. Power went to his head apparently, and he and his (also employed by the USPS) brother were harassing some they believed to be in violation of Park regs (Wrangell-St. Elias Nat'l Park & Perserve at the southern end), well beyond any legal enforcement powers.. As a prank they'd peppered one fellow outside his cabin door with bird shot. Fellow found them in the bar, calmly walked aorund the back of the bar, grabbed the bartender's .38 revolver from bneneath the bar counter, calmly walked up behind Bruce, and put 5 rounds into his kidneys. A shoot-out ensued in the bar, with Bruce's brother returning to their truck and retrieving the shotgun. A lot of resentment in that village when the shooter was sentenced to a moderate time in prison. The community saw the shooter's eraction as somewhat justified by Bruce and his brother's 'prank earlier in the evening, as well as their actions leading up to that moment.

The bar tender was also the community EMT, so that was handy.

Bruce wan't that way when I knew him. We ate peyote and drank whisky together at Talkeetna Bluegrass in 1980. A peace-loving, curly red-haired, country hippie with an International Harvester pick-up truck.

I could provide more examples. I won't. The step-mother/auntie and 5-year old in the remote coastal village did me in.

There's a wide array of kilings here, some that I've been too close to, and most of which involved factors other than Axis I mental disorders. Power, desperation, revenge, isolation, finances, property disputes turned deady, and much more. In a place that boasts of itself as "The Last Frontier." We're really not, but that monicker tends to go to some folks' heads, and tends to carry images that maybe shouldn't be..

I will say that the rigid divide between the Trumper extremists with their alternative 'facts', and others, has contributed to a social climate here that is creeping toward a conflcit no one will want to read about.

Thanks for the perspective. It sounds very intense, soul gripping, and meaningful to experience and live in a place where you know more of those experiences can be right around the corner. Hence why you don't take it lightly. The realities of the Native cultures in the modern world are certainly thought provoking.

 

[moose eater]

Thanks for the perspective. It sounds very intense, soul gripping, and meaningful to experience and live in a place where you know more of those experiences can be right around the corner. Hence why you don't take it lightly. The realities of the Native cultures in the modern world are certainly thought provoking.

As 'large' and in color as these circumstances or occurrences seem, most of our neighborhoods are pretty calm. We have disagreements about use of private property, loud equipment, etc., often based on someone's or both parties' lack of self-awareness (my shit smells nice, but yours doesn't), but that rarely boils up into gun-play, etc.

Despite being a State that's 2.5 times the size of Texas, our entire population is only about 750,000, including rural, remote and urban centers.

When I came here there were only about 350,000 people.

Fish and game are more scarce as a result of influx (and some remote places still largely rely on those resources, while they are diminshed by many other factors, including urban folks who don't really need them), but we're nearly all migrants to begin with, not withstanding the Native populations, and even with them, there's widely accepted theories that they were migrants at one time too.
.
In a smaller population, if you've been here for any amount of time, you know a lot of names, families, individuals, etc.; a lot of people over time. There'll be a number of occurrences where the names and people are known. There's a double-edge to that. Character and reputation, accurate appraisals or not, matter that much more. Anonymity is in the cities. Here, if you live remote, most people you've never met, but who may have flown over, traveled over trails, or know someone who has, know something about your place, rumors of who you are, etc. Many come here to get "lost in the wilderness (like some weird Hansel & Grettel gig) where no one knows them." Anything but that is typically the reality.

If there's one fish laying on your table, you notice a whole lot more about that one fish, than you notice individual characteristics if there's a pile of fish there.

 

[moose eater]

Thanks for the perspective. It sounds very intense, soul gripping, and meaningful to experience and live in a place where you know more of those experiences can be right around the corner. Hence why you don't take it lightly. The realities of the Native cultures in the modern world are certainly thought provoking.

It's a place of extremes; both beautiful and not so beautiful.

 

[Three Berries]

Chicago education is captured by the Marxist Chicago Teachers Union. Communistic through and through and now have power written into the State Constitution that will allow them to steer state policy on matters other than education.

But it is unsustainable. They keep empty schools open to keep teachers employed. All the teachers get quality awards every year yet none of the kids can read at grade level. And I see now the district administrators are now part of the union bargaining. School admistrators are usually the highest paid state workers now in rural counties.

 

[Three Berries]

Funny... I always though Chicago was a top US city.

You scared to go check it out for yourself?

Watch out for this gentrified person. I hear they're scary

I use to live there back in the 80's. It's just another urban shithole now

Chicago Crime, Murder & Mayhem | Criminal Infographics | HeyJackass!

Illustrating the Chicago Values of Crime, Murder & Mayhem with comprehensive charts, precise graphs and exhaustive data sets of Chicago stupidity.

heyjackass.com

 

[moose eater]

Chicago education is captured by the Marxist Chicago Teachers Union. Communistic through and through and now have power written into the State Constitution that will allow them to steer state policy on matters other than education.

But it is unsustainable. They keep empty schools open to keep teachers employed. All the teachers get quality awards every year yet none of the kids can read at grade level. And I see now the district administrators are now part of the union bargaining. School admistrators are usually the highest paid state workers now in rural counties.

Artificial and questionable divides in one's own mind, born of ideological propaganda, don't provide any solutions, let alone a real framing of the issues that cause any current circumstances. But they often sound oh so blustery, except for the hollowness and ultimate meaninglessness....

 

[yesum]

I know I do not want guns in the hands of the people here that get so angry just talking about guns. Anti gunners mostly. I think some of their fears are about themselves having a gun.

Aside from gun deaths I consider what it is to live in a gun free country. They have the ability and often do turn into 1984 type deals. Anti gunners never seem to grasp that or maybe that is an ideal life for them?

Another is no mention of people producing a gun when attacked or robbed, and it stopping the robbery/attack. I think it is over a million a year here in the US.

Fentanyl other drugs/alcohol/tobacco deaths per year, traffic accidents per year. Not a lot of talk there. You remove ghetto areas like south Chicago from the mix and not that many shootings. Racist to mention it.

 

[moose eater]

But the rural rates of gun violence per capita often exceed the urban areas where raw numbers are greater, but per capita numbers are actually lower. That point is already made earlier.

And for the Bubbas talking about 'preserving a free nation', when we were working against the USA PATRIOT ACT's extra-legal authorites, the NRA and their followers sat by silent, while groups like Gun Owners of America and Nancy Talanian's Bill of Rights Defense Committees did the leg-work to stand strong against those excesses.

In short, the NRA types were (or seemed to be, based on response) completely OK with forfeiting any Amendments under the Bill of Rights, -but- the 2nd. There was some stout irony in that.

Data reports that most home-owners/home residents who open up on an intruder, even with training, though most lack such, tend to empty their magazine or cylinder without hitting the intended target(s) (Though those projectiles -are- going someplace). At that point, one must hope their offender is unarmed. If not, then they may have a really pissed off, potentially armed intruder on their hands..

I've been a firearms owner since age 11 (16-gauge shotgun), my first .357 revolver at age 13, various and many weapons since then, to include class III stuff in my 20s and 30s, into my 40s. All I have left today in the 'exotic' category is a short-barrelled shotgun, along with handguns and rifles. All I need.

We have a glorification of violence problem, a lack of mediation or dialogue problem, a self-control problem, a boundaries problem, and more, that contribute to a rising death-by-firearms situation that ought to be embarassing for many.

Edit: I agree that those who are frightened of firearms, and those who are inexperienced with them, are a hazzard to themselves and others when in possession of them.

 

[EastCoastGambit]

To me its been 1984 since 2004. That is just an arbitrary date but we have already (proles, double-speak, psy ops, massive surveillance through your TV and cell phone and internet use, facial recognition, massive govt. bureaucracy, automated toll booths, disinformation, etc.)

If your worried about it becoming 1984 in my opinion we have been there for years. Not to mention the Patriot Act, as Moose brought up, which did strip our sovereign rights.

Here's another bombshell... WWIII has also already started, its a financial war and has been going on for years.

I am not anti-gun. I'm anti idiots with guns. That cats out of the bag I think. You can be for 2A and also be for expanded background checks. I know most problem guns are obtained illegally but still better sales tracking and screening shouldn't be an issue like it is. Obviously the gun companies just want to make as much cash as possible hence the way they dangerously market their products.

 

[audiohi]

I use to live there back in the 80's. It's just another urban shithole now

Chicago Crime, Murder & Mayhem | Criminal Infographics | HeyJackass!

Illustrating the Chicago Values of Crime, Murder & Mayhem with comprehensive charts, precise graphs and exhaustive data sets of Chicago stupidity.

heyjackass.com

Are you more afraid of a gentrification of Chicago or a Chicago that's a ghetto?

That's a tough one, huh?


I'm still laughing at gentrification being the biggest fear of an assumed white male. lol

 

[armedoldhippy]

tend to empty their magazine or cylinder without hitting the intended target

i can't help but wonder if many times, the homeowner is just wanting the problem to go away, and isn't even aiming. i don't want to shoot anyone myself, and wouldn't if my first shot was a miss and they hauled ass. i'm not going outside chasing them down the street blazing away like in some stupid movie. "if" i miss my first round and they do NOT turn & hit the door, i'll try a lot harder then...i know folks that keep rat shot under the hammer & hollowpoints the rest of the way. same thought process...

 

[armedoldhippy]

screening shouldn't be an issue like it is

you are right, it shouldn't. but...(here we go) every time responsible gun owners vote for another "reasonable" restriction, which won't do what its sponsors said, then they are faced with another "reasonable" restriction within months. criminals are not going to obey laws, so there ARE no "reasonable" restrictions on law-abiding citizens that will help. every "reasonable" restriction is just another step further out onto the slippery slope leading to disarming honest people & giving criminals free rein.

 

[moose eater]

i can't help but wonder if many times, the homeowner is just wanting the problem to go away, and isn't even aiming. i don't want to shoot anyone myself, and wouldn't if my first shot was a miss and they hauled ass. i'm not going outside chasing them down the street blazing away like in some stupid movie. "if" i miss my first round and they do NOT turn & hit the door, i'll try a lot harder then...i know folks that keep rat shot under the hammer & hollowpoints the rest of the way. same thought process...

I believe most of the issue of not hitting a target in such instances involves the unsettling nature of a good load of adrenaline in one's system, and what that can do to even the best marksman's accuracy, let alone someone who only infrequently shoots and isn't properly qualified in any way, such as the average home-owner/resident.

There may be some hesitation to take a life in those moments, and the rat shot indicates that, but it's my and many others' opinions that is a potentially fatal error or group of errors.

If you're going to fire on something, it's best to intend to kill it, or don't shoot at all. A wounded target can be at least as great of a danger to you (likely more dangerous) and dead targets can't sue you, or twist your story..

When I was politically active and involved in hot button issues, with the occasional death threat via telephone or even mail (yes, there are some so stupid as to send death threats through the mail), or the possiblity of home-invaders re. the ganja, and I was growing decent size crops, my kids and wife were trained to -never- go to the door to answer the doorbell or a knock, but to first grab the 12-gauge, then go to a window upstairs above and to the side of the front entryway, inquire through the open window (from upstairs) who was at the door and the nature of their business, and if the person at the door stated they needed to speak with a parent, (me or my wife), and neither of us were home, to state that the one of us the visitor was referencing was in the shower, and ask if they could relay a message.

They were all taught/trained that if someone began coming through the door uninvited, to aim for center mass with an alternating load from the shotgun of 00 buckshot and Breneke Rotweil Magnum slugs, and to continue firing into center mass with NO hesitation, until the target was no longer breathing, groaning, or anything else, then to call me immediately before calling anyone else.

If you're in a situation where you need to stop something, stop it. Don't fuck around. Wounding a bear may get you killed. Same with people.

 

[moose eater]

you are right, it shouldn't. but...(here we go) every time responsible gun owners vote for another "reasonable" restriction, which won't do what its sponsors said, then they are faced with another "reasonable" restriction within months. criminals are not going to obey laws, so there ARE no "reasonable" restrictions on law-abiding citizens that will help. every "reasonable" restriction is just another step further out onto the slippery slope leading to disarming honest people & giving criminals free rein.

I think blanket statements aren't always as applicable or accurate as they might sound.

Most of us here are criminals, or were/have been at some point, by definition, but many of us obey most laws; especially the reasonable and common sense type laws.

I know that the ley to maintaining any existence with a suspect weapon, suspect vices, or any other 'gray' or 'black' areas of life, is to first not be an idiot in the area of 'social contracts' and behaviors.

I've camped in semi-remote parks, in formal camp sites where there were bears and other humans had possibly created circumstances where bears might be more socialized or curious than they otherwise would be. Those parks often prohibited the presence of a loaded firearm (in the formal camp areas firearms were OK, but couldn't be loaded, specifically in Canada). My firearm remained loaded, and as long as I wasn't a jackass, misbehaving, drunk, bothering others, creating a nuisance etc. there was no reason for that firearm to become an issue, even when park rangers entered the camp site.

 

[RobFromTX]

Are you more afraid of a gentrification of Chicago or a Chicago that's a ghetto?

That's a tough one, huh?


I'm still laughing at gentrification being the biggest fear of an assumed white male. lol

Hmmm crime and poverty or vegan soy shake and penciled douche mustache