madpenguin
Member
Cool. Always been intrigued by vertical setups. Looks good.
Growroom Electricity and Wiring
- Thread starter Phillthy
- Start date
madpenguin
Member
You can do either or. They sell the male plug ends at home improvement stores to which you could attach to romex.
A tad safer idea (but more expensive) is to look at the flexible cord post in my sig and use 20A rated flexible cord that has a premanufactured male plug on one end and just loose wires on the other. That way you wouldn't have to worry about a shoddy home-made connection with a store bought male end and romex...
A tad safer idea (but more expensive) is to look at the flexible cord post in my sig and use 20A rated flexible cord that has a premanufactured male plug on one end and just loose wires on the other. That way you wouldn't have to worry about a shoddy home-made connection with a store bought male end and romex...
TrueGangsta148
Member
Hello. I am looking to setup my 600w Digital ballasts(2) and there is only 1 240 w breaker in my house and the wiring is so ghetto no new breakers may be installed. My question, is can i attach wires to these points in the picture, and connect that to my 240v mechanical timer, which goes to outlets that i plug the lights into? From the timer to the lights is allready assembled from before and tested, but my question is can i piggyback off these terminals for the lights?
If i were to do this, the lights would only be on 12/12, at night, so the dryer would be plugged in on top of the wires going to the timer, but the dryer would NEVER be operated when the lights were on.
Also, in the unlikely event that the dryer was run when the lights were one, what would happen? the 2 lights draw about 5-6 amps, and the dryer takes max 15. its a 30 amp breaker. would the breaker flip, or would it be okay? This is all just consideration right now, i'm not going to rush into anything just yet.
this photo shows the dryers outlet with the cover removed, and where i would attach the proper wires. I've figured i need to use #10 wire.
If i were to do this, the lights would only be on 12/12, at night, so the dryer would be plugged in on top of the wires going to the timer, but the dryer would NEVER be operated when the lights were on.
Also, in the unlikely event that the dryer was run when the lights were one, what would happen? the 2 lights draw about 5-6 amps, and the dryer takes max 15. its a 30 amp breaker. would the breaker flip, or would it be okay? This is all just consideration right now, i'm not going to rush into anything just yet.
this photo shows the dryers outlet with the cover removed, and where i would attach the proper wires. I've figured i need to use #10 wire.
Attachments
If you overload the circuit it'll just throw the circuit breaker - no biggie. Anyway, sounds like even with everything turned on you would be okay, amps wise. Still better to run them separate though.
Those connections weren't designed for multiple wires. While what you want to do might work, it's a bad idea to make iffy connections.
If you were to get a dryer cord, junction box and two dryer receptacles, you could easily build a Y adapter that plugs into your dryer receptacle. It's easy enough to build and, once you build it, you can take it with you whenever you move and your op is even more plug-n-play. You might want to de-rate the circuit 5% - 10% because of the multiple plugs, but that's no big deal in your case because you're not even close to pushing the limit with either connection.
PC
Those connections weren't designed for multiple wires. While what you want to do might work, it's a bad idea to make iffy connections.
If you were to get a dryer cord, junction box and two dryer receptacles, you could easily build a Y adapter that plugs into your dryer receptacle. It's easy enough to build and, once you build it, you can take it with you whenever you move and your op is even more plug-n-play. You might want to de-rate the circuit 5% - 10% because of the multiple plugs, but that's no big deal in your case because you're not even close to pushing the limit with either connection.
PC
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KifGärtner
Member
relay
relay
Not sure if anyone has covered this yet, but I will ask anyway.
I saw a tutorial about them in here but it didn't cover solid state relays.
My question is; can a 60amp solid state relay be used after a timer?
my basic design is a GE 120v, 200amp panel from the meter with 3/0 awg. There will be nothing except for the room wired to this panel. I have 1x 40amp circuit wired to a 40amp timer that is wired to 3 receptacles. 3x 40amp circuits are wired to 5x receptacles, 2x 20amp circuits are wired to 2x receptacles.
So from the 40amp circuit i am wiring to a 40amp timer and inside the (timer)box i wish to wire a 60amp (only one i could find at the time) relay after the timer then on to the receptacles. I am gonna be running 4x 1000w ballasts and a 200w exhaust fan on this circuit. it will run about 35amps on a continues load (12hrs).
hhmm, should I split the load on to 2x 40amp circuits?
relay
Not sure if anyone has covered this yet, but I will ask anyway.
I saw a tutorial about them in here but it didn't cover solid state relays.
My question is; can a 60amp solid state relay be used after a timer?
my basic design is a GE 120v, 200amp panel from the meter with 3/0 awg. There will be nothing except for the room wired to this panel. I have 1x 40amp circuit wired to a 40amp timer that is wired to 3 receptacles. 3x 40amp circuits are wired to 5x receptacles, 2x 20amp circuits are wired to 2x receptacles.
So from the 40amp circuit i am wiring to a 40amp timer and inside the (timer)box i wish to wire a 60amp (only one i could find at the time) relay after the timer then on to the receptacles. I am gonna be running 4x 1000w ballasts and a 200w exhaust fan on this circuit. it will run about 35amps on a continues load (12hrs).
hhmm, should I split the load on to 2x 40amp circuits?
TrueGangsta148
Member
the plugs on my lamps are the 6-15r shape. i have found recepticles in this shape that are 15A, and 20A. i saw earlier in this thread you mention a 6-30r outlet, is this large like for dryers? its the same config as my plugs, but looks much bigger. IF my lamp plugs are 6-15r, does this mean i can only use a 15A outlet and thusly a 15A breaker? that makes 4 6ers or 2 1k's on one circuit or mech timer. now i see why people are using relays and 120v timers. if you cut the plugs off your lamps, and hardwire them directly to the timer or circuit, does this eliminate the recepticle roadblock and allow you to use straigh 30A from the timer? (or 40A if you were doing say 6k)
TrueGangsta148
Member
I've found only single plug 6-15r or 6-20r receptacles, if i want to put 2 or 3 or 4 in one metal box, where can i find a cover that will accomadate this odd config? i wish there were 2 plug receptacles, and i could put 4 outlets into 1 box with a standard cover. it wouldnt be reccomended for 1k's, but you could run 4x600w fine.
TrueGangsta148
Member
okay, i've decided to do a 30A sub panel fed from a y in the line before the dryer recepticle. I will be using a 100A panel, mounted on a piece of wood that is 22x24". This photo shows the panel, and the eventual final arrangement. For now, with the 30A service, Only the mech timer, yellow outlets, and green outlets will be installed. the timer and yellow outlets will be wired with #12 wire, and 20A receptacles, as will the orange outlets eventually as needed, but the fuse will be 240 15A until i clear up whether its okay to use higher rated receptacles for my plugs. The green outlets will be a 15A breaker with some outlets for floros and fans.
This panel will eventually be installed somewhere else, with 6/3 wire, and 60A service. at that time, the bottom 2 outlets will be added for ac's and dehueys, 20A, and the top left will be another 10A for additional stuff. when i step it up, i will eventually upgrade the 15A light fuse to a 20A fuse, and use 4x1000w lights.
beyond that, i can remove the mech timer and plug the ballasts in 24/7 and get a relay switch for 8 bulbs.
do i need to cut and measure small pieces of conduit (metal or plastic) to connect every box, or will it be alright if i use clamps at each junction box and just use conduit for the longer pieces of wire like the j from the timer to the top outlets (its not easy to curve stuff in that program but the yellow line would be curved not sharp 90 degrees)
This panel will eventually be installed somewhere else, with 6/3 wire, and 60A service. at that time, the bottom 2 outlets will be added for ac's and dehueys, 20A, and the top left will be another 10A for additional stuff. when i step it up, i will eventually upgrade the 15A light fuse to a 20A fuse, and use 4x1000w lights.
beyond that, i can remove the mech timer and plug the ballasts in 24/7 and get a relay switch for 8 bulbs.
do i need to cut and measure small pieces of conduit (metal or plastic) to connect every box, or will it be alright if i use clamps at each junction box and just use conduit for the longer pieces of wire like the j from the timer to the top outlets (its not easy to curve stuff in that program but the yellow line would be curved not sharp 90 degrees)
Attachments
B
bipotato
madpenguin
Member
madpenguin
Member
Been away for awhile.
PC said everything I would have concerning the dryer receptacle. Those lugs aren't meant to be double tapped and I would worry about a weak connection and increased resistance and heat because of it.
Your safest bet is to pull the dryer receptacle and punch in a 4 square junction box right where the dryer receptacle was. Route the new and old wires into this box. Notice the 4 screw holes. Make sure one of the receptacles below will fit in this box. (Make sure your getting the right junction box).
Get a new receptacle. They are cheap.
If your dryer cord only has 3 prongs then buy this one: It's a NEMA 10-30R
If your dryer cord has 4 prongs which would be fairly unusual, then buy this one: It's a NEMA 14-30P
Get one of these and gut the inside clamps until you just have a round plastic circle: Knock out one of the back knockouts on the metal box and insert the plastic NM connector into the hole. Bring your old wires in here.
Get one of these to secure your new wire that will be leading out of the metal box to feed your lights/subpanel or whatever.
Get some large Blue wirenuts and cut some #10 pigtails. One red, one black, one white and one bare. Take a pair of linemans pliers and twist the shit out of all three wires. New/old/pigtail of the same colors. Get a REALLY good solid connection. Do that with each color wire. Once you've manually twisted the hell out of the connections with your linemans, then twist the blue wirenuts on really well. Then all you'll be left with are your pigtails that attach to the new receptacle you bought. Screw the new receptacle into the junction box and plate it. Plug your dryer back in.
Then route your new 10/3 romex to your grow room lights or subpanel or whatever you decided to do with it.
And yes. Try to put a note above the dryer reminding you not to run it while your light cycle is active. Worst case scenario, your breaker will trip.
PC said everything I would have concerning the dryer receptacle. Those lugs aren't meant to be double tapped and I would worry about a weak connection and increased resistance and heat because of it.
Your safest bet is to pull the dryer receptacle and punch in a 4 square junction box right where the dryer receptacle was. Route the new and old wires into this box. Notice the 4 screw holes. Make sure one of the receptacles below will fit in this box. (Make sure your getting the right junction box).
Get a new receptacle. They are cheap.
If your dryer cord only has 3 prongs then buy this one: It's a NEMA 10-30R
If your dryer cord has 4 prongs which would be fairly unusual, then buy this one: It's a NEMA 14-30P
Get one of these and gut the inside clamps until you just have a round plastic circle: Knock out one of the back knockouts on the metal box and insert the plastic NM connector into the hole. Bring your old wires in here.
Get one of these to secure your new wire that will be leading out of the metal box to feed your lights/subpanel or whatever.
Get some large Blue wirenuts and cut some #10 pigtails. One red, one black, one white and one bare. Take a pair of linemans pliers and twist the shit out of all three wires. New/old/pigtail of the same colors. Get a REALLY good solid connection. Do that with each color wire. Once you've manually twisted the hell out of the connections with your linemans, then twist the blue wirenuts on really well. Then all you'll be left with are your pigtails that attach to the new receptacle you bought. Screw the new receptacle into the junction box and plate it. Plug your dryer back in.
Then route your new 10/3 romex to your grow room lights or subpanel or whatever you decided to do with it.
And yes. Try to put a note above the dryer reminding you not to run it while your light cycle is active. Worst case scenario, your breaker will trip.
madpenguin
Member
Crap. I still need to finish that damn tutorial. Sorry. SSR's do the same thing as a mechanical relay only alot quicker. I think they tend to heat up more, and if they don't, your still employing circuitry versus metal contacts. SSR's need to be kept cool. Well, cooler than a mechanical relay IMO....
Sure. This is a 40A Intermatic HD timer your talking about? If your just using the #8 copper romex coming from the timer to the relay (yes, use #8), then you'll not only need to terminate the incoming wires to the "line in" contacts of the relay, but you'll need to pigtail or jumper from the same "line in" wires over to the "center contacts" in order to operate the relay and send power to the "load out" contacts once the 40A timer turns on and sends power out towards the 60A SSR.
I'm sure you knew that already. Sorry. I just haven't done fuck all with that relay tutorial so I don't even feel like I've adequately explained how they operate.
Question, Are you using 40A single pole breakers or 40A double pole breakers. By the amperage you are giving it has to be 120v lighting but you would probably be better off using a DP 40A breaker with 8/3 as the feed.my basic design is a GE 120v, 200amp panel from the meter with 3/0 awg. There will be nothing except for the room wired to this panel. I have 1x 40amp circuit wired to a 40amp timer that is wired to 3 receptacles. 3x 40amp circuits are wired to 5x receptacles, 2x 20amp circuits are wired to 2x receptacles.
So from the 40amp circuit i am wiring to a 40amp timer and inside the (timer)box i wish to wire a 60amp (only one i could find at the time) relay after the timer then on to the receptacles. I am gonna be running 4x 1000w ballasts and a 200w exhaust fan on this circuit. it will run about 35amps on a continues load (12hrs).
hhmm, should I split the load on to 2x 40amp circuits?
Turn it into a MWBC and you've halved the watt loss and voltage drop. You'll have the beneficial characteristics of a 240v circuit but it will just be 2 separate 120v circuits really with a shared neutral.
Hope I didn't loose you. But to answer your question flat out. No. You shouldn't need to split that up. Your a few amps over the 80% derating rule but I'm going to be a hypocrite and say you'll probably be good anyway.
madpenguin
Member
I basically need to retract all that shit about keeping 30A wire with 30A receptacles on 30A breakers.
Yes, your right. A 30A receptacle is as big as a dryer receptacle you'd have to be damaged in the brain to snip all your ballast plugs and rewire them with a 30A plug.... I stated in the beginning of this thread I make mistakes on occasion and that was one of them...
When talking with Avenger on another thread he inadvertently led me to an article in the NEC that states you can hook 20A receptacles up to a 30A run. I really wish I would have bookmarked that f'er. I think it was in 400 somewhere.
For that matter, I kinda wish PC and Avenger would jump in here more often...
This is kinda why I just took a 2 week break or how ever long I've been gone. Gets overwhelming at times.
Hold on for a sec. I'm going to find that article and post it here before I answer any more questions. But to answer one of your first questions... Always go with the heavy duty 20A receptacles when working with a 30 or 40A circuit. Ideally, you should try to run the correct gauge wire as far along as you can until you get to the point where the load will split and be reduced.
Say You have a 8/2 romex on a 40A single pole breaker running into a 40A 120v water heater timer. You NEED to atleast do that much because from the timer to the breaker is going to be seeing the entire load. That's a no brainer. But.... From the load-out terminals of the timer, if your feeding 4 separate receptacles that are meant to each power a 1kw 120v ballast, then just use #12 romex from the "load out" on the timer which in turn connect to a 20A receptacle to which you will be plugging your ONE ballast into.
So... That means for 4 ballast, each one with it's own receptacle, You would want to run 4 separate #12 romex cables out of the timer. All of them safely attached to the "load out" terminals of the timer. Each #12 would run to it's own dedicated receptacle which would only power one 1kw ballast.
Yes, a 120v 1kw ballast will only draw around 9-10A so technically you could use #14 romex from the timer out lugs which go to 15A receptacles but ovkill never hurt anything (except your pocket book). I would feel much better with #12 romex and 20A spec grade receptacles powering 10A worth of load than I would #14 romex and 15A cheap "cooper blue-backed" receptacles powering a 10A load.
The choice is yours. Just know that when dealing with electricity, there really is no such thing as "overkill". It's actually called "being safer".
Hold on for the Article number. I'll post it so we can all see what the NEC has to say about it.
TrueGangsta148
Member
Yes, your right. A 30A receptacle is as big as a dryer receptacle you'd have to be damaged in the brain to snip all your ballast plugs and rewire them with a 30A plug.... I stated in the beginning of this thread I make mistakes on occasion and that was one of them...
When talking with Avenger on another thread he inadvertently led me to an article in the NEC that states you can hook 20A receptacles up to a 30A run. I really wish I would have bookmarked that f'er. I think it was in 400 somewhere.
The choice is yours. Just know that when dealing with electricity, there really is no such thing as "overkill". It's actually called "being safer".
Hold on for the Article number. I'll post it so we can all see what the NEC has to say about it.
You are so AWESOME! thanks for your quick reply ( to this post, the other few have been a few days but i'm patient and like to get advice from you cause i KNOW its solid.)
I was not suggesting that i attach dryer cords to my lights LOL that'd be great. I was freaking for a second about using a light cord rated 15A, so i thought my whole light circuit would have to be 15 or 20A. Now i know i can start with the junction, and go right to a mech timer then to the outlets for the lights. One question, when running the 20A receptacles on 30A, using 12 wire, can i wire them in a series from one to the next, or should i make a pigtail split into 4 lines from the timer and feed each outlet separately?
TrueGangsta148
Member
I have another question about grounding. it seems fairly straightforward, always connect your grounds to the other ground wires, and to ground screws in your junction boxes if using metal. I am using metal, and i'm wondering if you have to connect anything more than that? if the wire's attached to the junction box, do the junctin boxes need to be connected to each other, and/or have a physical wire that goes to the ground or cold water pipe? one ground wire for the whole panel? or does it go back through the panel and get its ground from the main panel? I just dont want to get this whole thing assembled and then have to go back.
I dont want to sound totally retarded, cause i've wired a few circuits before, but its been a while. everything has always worked on them, except my digi ballasts. I know theres a chance that it was just ghetto ballasts, theres also a major chance it was just bulb compatability issues. Still, i have heard of improperly grounded circuits getting the digi ballasts in a way that doestnt affect other appliances.
I dont want to sound totally retarded, cause i've wired a few circuits before, but its been a while. everything has always worked on them, except my digi ballasts. I know theres a chance that it was just ghetto ballasts, theres also a major chance it was just bulb compatability issues. Still, i have heard of improperly grounded circuits getting the digi ballasts in a way that doestnt affect other appliances.
madpenguin
Member
Well, thats kinda what I was talking about with the 4 individual runs of #12 out of the timer.
Go with your second option you listed.
If you daisy chain all 4 receptacles/ballasts with one #12 then now you have 36A going down #12 romex which is only rated for 20A...
That wire will melt and catch fire before the end of your first light cycle. This is why I preach the right wire gauge for the right size breaker.
If your using a 40A Single Pole 120v breaker and a 40A timer you must run 8/2 copper romex with ground from the breaker to the timer. Then Cut a short piece of #8 black conductor and attach it to the load out of the timer. Then run 4 separate (I'll bend) 14/2 with ground romex cables out of the timer. All 4 black conductors of the #14's need to be wirenutted to that short piece of #8 coming off the load side of the timer.
Remember!!! When all 4 of those #14 meet at one place, you have 36A worth of current meeting. That is the point where you MUST have 40A rated wire. If you used a #14 pigtail to attach to the load out terminal of the timer and then wirenutted all 4 of the outgoing 14/2's to that, look out.... You now have 36A going down that short #14 pigtail that's attached to the timer "load out" lug. You WILL have a fire inside your timer enclosure before your done with your first light cycle.
madpenguin
Member
O.k... Let me try to clarify all that. I answered a question about grounds below before I started typing this so read that really quick..
Ground out every thing metal and wirenut ALL grounds together. If you stop and think about that for just a second then that means you can really only do one thing with your grounds. Daisy chain them all together and every single metal box that they enter, you need to make a pigtail that attaches to the back of the box. Receptacles grounded, metal boxes grounded, metal casings to ballasts grounded, metal reflectors of lamps grounded.... Everything.
That main ground wire that you started with will lead back to the panel and terminate there. That's enough. If your house is properly grounded, your main disconnect will have a #4 bare running to the water meter and a #6 bare running outside to an 8' ground rod. Both of these ground wires will be attached to the neutral bus that is inside of your VERY FIRST disconnecting means. IE - Your Main Disconnect.
Yea... Ballasts in general should be grounded else you'll start getting some screwy shit happening, such as they wont fire properly. This really is noticeable with florescent ballasts in particular.
But everything metal is required to be ground by the NEC. This includes a metal plate cover attached to a plastic gang box. They are really getting strict. If it's metal, ground it! Period.
madpenguin
Member
410.62(C)(2)
410.62(C)(2)
O.k..... I found the NEC Article that says you can use a 20A receptacle on a 30 or 40A run.
The NFPA got greedy and yanked their online version of the NEC and are now requiring you to pay for it. Pricks. That means I have to type all this crap out instead of doing a print screen and posting the pictures...
410.62 Cord-Connected Lampholders and Luminaires
(C) Electric-Discharge Luminaires
(2) Provided with Mogul-Base, Screw Shell Lampholders. Electric-Discharge luminaires provided with mogul-base, screw shell lampholders shall be permitted to be connected to branch circuits of 50 amperes or less by cords complying with 240.5. Receptacles and attachment plugs shall be permitted to be of a lower ampere than the branch circuit but not less than 125 percent of the luminaire full load current.
240.5(A) Ampacities will point you to table 400.5(A) which is listed down in my sig (flexible cords). You guys are still boned on the wire gauge but you can use a receptacle that has a rating lower than the branch circuit as long as the receptacle is rated for atleast 125 percent of the full load amperage of the luminaire.
410.62(C)(2)
O.k..... I found the NEC Article that says you can use a 20A receptacle on a 30 or 40A run.
The NFPA got greedy and yanked their online version of the NEC and are now requiring you to pay for it. Pricks. That means I have to type all this crap out instead of doing a print screen and posting the pictures...
410.62 Cord-Connected Lampholders and Luminaires
(C) Electric-Discharge Luminaires
(2) Provided with Mogul-Base, Screw Shell Lampholders. Electric-Discharge luminaires provided with mogul-base, screw shell lampholders shall be permitted to be connected to branch circuits of 50 amperes or less by cords complying with 240.5. Receptacles and attachment plugs shall be permitted to be of a lower ampere than the branch circuit but not less than 125 percent of the luminaire full load current.
240.5(A) Ampacities will point you to table 400.5(A) which is listed down in my sig (flexible cords). You guys are still boned on the wire gauge but you can use a receptacle that has a rating lower than the branch circuit as long as the receptacle is rated for atleast 125 percent of the full load amperage of the luminaire.
Not sure if anyone has covered this yet, but I will ask anyway.
I saw a tutorial about them in here but it didn't cover solid state relays.
My question is; can a 60amp solid state relay be used after a timer?
my basic design is a GE 120v, 200amp panel from the meter with 3/0 awg. There will be nothing except for the room wired to this panel. I have 1x 40amp circuit wired to a 40amp timer that is wired to 3 receptacles. 3x 40amp circuits are wired to 5x receptacles, 2x 20amp circuits are wired to 2x receptacles.
So from the 40amp circuit i am wiring to a 40amp timer and inside the (timer)box i wish to wire a 60amp (only one i could find at the time) relay after the timer then on to the receptacles. I am gonna be running 4x 1000w ballasts and a 200w exhaust fan on this circuit. it will run about 35amps on a continues load (12hrs).
hhmm, should I split the load on to 2x 40amp circuits?
The 40 amp timer, if you are talking about an Intermatic type, is a relay. There is no need for another one.
80% of the rated load is the maximum you want to draw for continuous use. 80% of a 40 amp circuit is 32 amps. The 35 amps you mentioned is the minimum you'd draw. You need to look at mfgr's rating to determine the exact draw, which is probably more than the math equation gives you. Regardless, you are over the limit; and limits are there for a reason.
You say your main panel is 120v, 200 amp. That would be out of the ordinary. Are you sure it's not 240v? (240v is just two 120v's. If you have three wires going to the meter/coming into your panel, you have 240v.) Anyway, you should determine your available voltage and work from there. Many ballasts will work on either 120v or 240v (110v/220v) and 240v would be the way for you to go. You could power what you want with the equipment you have except you might have to buy a 240v breaker.
PC
