Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[RockyMountainHi]

I don't grow in a DWC system, but it isn't the DWC cycle that gets the bugs - it's the chemical going into the plant and getting the bugs that eat the plant roots. - I would think,,, a few hours to a day.

My aplication was pH adjsuted water with the Tree n shrub added.


After an effective application, about a week later - you will notice a lot less flying bugs, 10 days to 2 weeks, I might get 1 bug on my sticky traps in a day, might not get any for two or three. Or four!


Three months later I have a few flyers - I think it's my re-used rockwool. I've started nukeing them to sterilize.

HTH...

let us know if your application was effective, - hopefully it will do the trick.

 

[michigan.mmma]

i was skeptical about the 30 min "soak" also since in DWC, a "soak" will not leave any residual imid once the bucket is cleaned and new solution added. i understand the point of soaking rockwool and other mediums that have the ability to absorb. here are the instructions i went by that i found in this thread (although i am only a little over half way through reading it and i dont see a lot of info on DWC yet)

from Spleebale:
Note: applying imid products does seem to shock plant to some extent; if they are healthy they get over it right away, where most people report a positive change in appearance (new growth etc) the very next day. If plants are unhealthy, imid treatment can stress them and cause them to stall (sometimes even induces outbreaks of pathogens, like fungal leaf issues). The most important thing is to be careful with imid in recirculating hydro systems; far less imid is necessary when there will be such repeated contact with roots (5-20 mL C.I.K or 2.5-10 mL T&S). It is also important to run the pesticides for only a short period of time (2-4 hrs should be plenty!) and then change out the res and run the system again. I would personally base the length of time and concentration on how "exposed" the roots will be to the pesticide; DWC/hydrofarm systems probably only need ~30 min exposure with very low doses (since roots will be continually soaked in the solution). NFT and aero type systems could probably use slightly higher doses and exposure time, and top-feed or ebb/flow probably a bit more/longer still (perhaps 2-4 waterings for such container-hydro or rockwool slab/Hugo cube systems). Using higher levels of pesticides than the system calls for or letting pesticides stay around too long can be a recipe for disaster, as plants do not like to be continually exposed to the imid products (even at low levels) for very long

i read people are filling the buckets to the top and letting them sit for 30 mins which is what i did, but if contact does not have any effect on RA's, i dont think there is a need to fill the buckets to the top. I just followed the directions i saw and things look much better, plants are under 600W HPS very close to the light and no negative effects yet as there would have been in the past so i am very very happy about that. i am still seeing one here or there in the buckets if i look really hard but its only been a couple days since the application. i am thinking of hitting them again when it is 1 week from the original application if i still see them around. But this time, before i do a nutrient change i think i can add the suggested amount to the existing solution in the buckets and let them absorb some of the solution for at least 1/4 to 1/2 of the day so there is some guaranteed uptake by the plant. i am not comfortable with the 30 mins i gave them even though things look great, i also did it when the lights were out which gives me more doubt there is little uptake.

like i said, things look great for now so i am happy about that but i am going to keep reading to see if there is more info on these micros and DWC and application of imid. i dont want to over do it if 1 application is enough.

 

[michigan.mmma]

i finally finished reading this thread and there really is not much info on DWC other than the instructions above.

Since i applied at lights out, i am not confident the plants absorbed any or enough imid. I also am able to find an RA if i am patient and look for them really close with a loupe. i am able to find only one around the inside top rim of the DWC bucket. It has been 5 days since i first applied and i want to be sure so i am treating them again today.

of the 2 i had farthest along in flower, i trashed one since they are not going to yield much anyway and kept the other around for now to see how it responds to the imid treatment. so far, i am amazed how good the plants look already but im freaked out that i'm still seeing the RAs. today i am not filling the buckets to the top or even dumping out the nutes in the buckets. i topped them off at normal level with plain water and added bayer T&S at 3ml/gal. i dont think they need filled up to the top since the roots will absorb it in regular nutrient uptake. i am checking them every hour but i plan on leaving them 3-6 hrs so i know they have absorbed it then i will dump and add fresh nutes.

i will post the effects of this longer exposure time in DWC.

 

[RetroGrow]

Yeah, in a recirculating system, the plants are already hydrated, so not really drinking a lot if not thirsty. In coco, you wait 'till the pots are dry, and plants are really thirsty. They suck it right up.
I think a longer period will work. Remember, it takes a while for them to die.....

 

[EclipseFour20]

Imid is a systemic...so once it is in the plant, it is there. The tobacco boys foliar feed--which makes sense, since leaf intake can be greater than some roots--especially damaged roots.

For DWC...I would go Botanigard root ball soak, even days before harvest. The fungi attacks the bugs--no chems.

I am in indoor, soil, and perpetual--and I used to have RAs...no mas!

 

[smog]

hello im wondering can bugs live with out oxygen like in a mason jar? Also when using imid can you wash it off surfaces with soap or alcohol ,once its dry on pot bottoms can you just wash then in your kitchen sink or can this poison yourself even in small amounts. Would you use this on plants in the room you sleep in if your not spraying it and there's ventilation to the out side? the directions sound like it has vapor not to breath maybe only from the b- cythrin stuff in bayer tk, it also says its safe for children once dryed so you can touch it dry what about re wetting like in the sink or if it rains outside though. And on the specracide gamma product does it have stong fumes could you use it on house plants in your liveing room?

 

[michigan.mmma]

i finally finished reading this thread and there really is not much info on DWC other than the instructions above.

Since i applied at lights out, i am not confident the plants absorbed any or enough imid. I also am able to find an RA if i am patient and look for them really close with a loupe. i am able to find only one around the inside top rim of the DWC bucket. It has been 5 days since i first applied and i want to be sure so i am treating them again today.

of the 2 i had farthest along in flower, i trashed one since they are not going to yield much anyway and kept the other around for now to see how it responds to the imid treatment. so far, i am amazed how good the plants look already but im freaked out that i'm still seeing the RAs. today i am not filling the buckets to the top or even dumping out the nutes in the buckets. i topped them off at normal level with plain water and added bayer T&S at 3ml/gal. i dont think they need filled up to the top since the roots will absorb it in regular nutrient uptake. i am checking them every hour but i plan on leaving them 3-6 hrs so i know they have absorbed it then i will dump and add fresh nutes.

i will post the effects of this longer exposure time in DWC.

UPDATE: On 4/12 I applied again at 3ml/Gal - not filling buckets to the very top but adding 3ml/gal and letting them absorb for about 3hrs. then i changed that solution for fresh nutrients and left them for a few days. i am very sad to say i found one or two yesterday and the day before but i really had to look. today on one plant that has been flowering almost 3 weeks, i added a little plain water topping off the buckets and i saw at least 5-6 micros running up the side of the bucket. if i looked hard with the loupe i could find several alive on the insides of the bucket.

so the good news is that before i found out about RAs, these plants would have been fried at this point and could not get anywhere near a 600W hps without burning up. these have been green as can be since they went under and have looked better than ever after the imid treatment. also before the imid, the roots of all my dwc plants were single strands only(i didnt understand why at the time) and now after treatment, there are many fine hairs and herring bone looking roots everywhere. but today i saw a few lower leaves looking a bit crispy around the edges and getting a little thin so i looked closer and closer and sound several RAs in the bucket. i cant believe these little bastards are still around. i knew it was too good to be true that i was out of the woods......

since the first treatment, i also used water that had mosquito dunks soaking in it a few times several days apart on every plant. there were a few gnats before but i have not seen any for several days and there are none on any traps so the gnats appear to be gone. i thought they were gone because of bacillus treatment AND because RAs were gone but it is not the case just yet.

So the situation is: no flyers at this time, plants are looking great except one starting to show first signs of crisping up, seeing a few RAs in each bucket but the one showing signs i can find several if looking with the loupe. tomorrow will be a week from 2nd treatment. am i panicking too soon?? please help me kill these little beasts that torture me.

 

[RetroGrow]

hello im wondering can bugs live with out oxygen like in a mason jar? Also when using imid can you wash it off surfaces with soap or alcohol ,once its dry on pot bottoms can you just wash then in your kitchen sink or can this poison yourself even in small amounts. Would you use this on plants in the room you sleep in if your not spraying it and there's ventilation to the out side? the directions sound like it has vapor not to breath maybe only from the b- cythrin stuff in bayer tk, it also says its safe for children once dryed so you can touch it dry what about re wetting like in the sink or if it rains outside though. And on the specracide gamma product does it have stong fumes could you use it on house plants in your liveing room?

This has been answered before. You cannot wash imid off plants. It is systemic. But of course you can wash it off hard surfaces.
It's also approved on food products, and has been given internally to dogs for 35 years to kill fleas. Imid really is a safe product. How many other pesticides can you feed to your dogs?

 

[smog]

i guess bugs dont need oxygen to live got some live ra's in a jar now for 3 days, 15 ml of bayer advanced is all thats needed in soil's, ra's totally gone, plants will look sick may only need 10 ml per gal. gamma smells like pyrethrin the odor lasts longer though.Also foil tape works great for cheaper fly traps hang near the lights as flys like shiny objects and lights.

 

[michigan.mmma]

this morning the leaf damage appears to be progressing. looking at the plant with the most damage, i can see several RA micros on the side of the netpot. i cant treat with imid this late in bloom so i tried spectracide triazicide. i cant watch the slow motion death again.

i have another plant that has been flowering about 1 week. it was treated with imid the same as the other 2 that are 3 weeks along. i decided to use the spectracide on it also just to be safe even though it looks absolutely beautiful and i have been trying with a loupe to find an RA on this one and was not able to no matter how long and hard i tried. but after adding the spectracide and filling buckets all the way up so the water contacted everything including the hydroton, i did see at least 1 live one crawl up the netpot outside above the hydroton- so those things are in that one also. it seems once there is visible damage on the leaves, there is major infestation in my DWC.

damn..... i was really, really happy for a few days there. this is not good

 

[RaNgEr RiCk]

Added 50ml per gallon of Bayer Advanced Complete, havent seen one flying aphid since. Its been 3 days now.

 

[michigan.mmma]

Added 50ml per gallon of Bayer Advanced Complete, havent seen one flying aphid since. Its been 3 days now.

mine looked great also for about 5 days after i used the bayer. then they came back. what medium are you using?

 

[michigan.mmma]

I topped off the buckets today and was very surprised to see live micros still crawling around. I treated these plants with imid and spectracide and these things will not die!

i have attached a pic of the plant that is flowering for almost a week. sorry for the poor quality photo. it was so hard to find one RA in this one that i thought there were none in here but they are there. probably just a small number relative to what is able to be seen when there is visible leaf damage.

i have not seen a lot of info on DWC and these micros but it seems everyone that tried the imid had great success with it. the only thing i can think of that i may have done wrong is the exposure times. i went over the recommended dosage and exposure time from what i read - i went 3 hrs on the imid and 1 hr with spectracide. any thoughts or ideas on what to try to kill these things?

 

[RockyMountainHi]

The Imid has to go into the plant - in sufficent concentrations - so it can be there long enough - and strong enough, that all the lil peckers eating the roots, get sick and die.

The bugs themselfs, should be able to swim in the shit for quite some time - its when they injest part of the plant with Imid in it. It dosn't kill em on contact, but it does break the life cycle

It takes about a week to 10 days to notice a big drop in numbers. 2 to 3 weeks they should be history.










If your having a swarm arise from the plant - that's not good.



Don't "duche" the plants, - SOAK em.



A few days afterwards - the plants will benifit from a treatment of hygrozime to help the roots heal and recover. - - At least mine did.

 

[growshopfrank]

I topped off the buckets today and was very surprised to see live micros still crawling around. I treated these plants with imid and spectracide and these things will not die!

i have attached a pic of the plant that is flowering for almost a week. sorry for the poor quality photo. it was so hard to find one RA in this one that i thought there were none in here but they are there. probably just a small number relative to what is able to be seen when there is visible leaf damage.

i have not seen a lot of info on DWC and these micros but it seems everyone that tried the imid had great success with it. the only thing i can think of that i may have done wrong is the exposure times. i went over the recommended dosage and exposure time from what i read - i went 3 hrs on the imid and 1 hr with spectracide. any thoughts or ideas on what to try to kill these things?

View attachment 113263

Just for shit and giggles try 1 to 2 ml of bleach per 10 gal of nutrients it wont kill the RA's but it may slow down the slow death that you are experiencing.repeat about every second day

 

[michigan.mmma]

i treated my mothers which are in rockwool today ( which are looking very nice) and also two other plants in DWC buckets that are 2-3 weeks along in veg with the spectracide triazicide. rockwool was just totally submerged for 1 hr each and buckets were filled to the very top so even the hydroton in the baskets was floating and also left for 1hr. the mothers were treated over a week ago with imid and have been looking great ever since. i just wanted to hit them again to be safe. the other plants in the buckets are very young and i didnt think they would be infected yet but i hit them as well - everything was about 15ml/gallon. after checking in a few hours later, i found several (at least half a dozen) crawling around the top inside rim of the bucket of a plant in veg ~3 weeks. i never saw an RA on this before even with close inspection with a loupe. it seems like they are being driven out of the basket probably from the flooding or spectracide. if there are aphids in the basket and it was submerged, should they be dead on contact or would it take a little time for them to die? i am wondering for next time i treat, if the concentration is too weak or not enough exposure time?

 

[RockyMountainHi]

I can't help ya with the spectracide questions, I've used it, but outdoors on an apple tree; never in "The Garden"

I've got some plants in soil and most in rockwool.

I just top watered throughly no draining - no flooding - just a watering


And growshopfrank, waz with "shitz and giggles" and BLEACH???? didn't I spend mega bucks for a filter to REMOVE CHLORIENE????

Maybe in your garden - not in mine


Adding anything for shits and giggles - AIN'T AN OPTION IN MY GARDEN,,,

we used to have a poster called sproutco - he advised using stump remover regurarly. He also never grew.

 

[RetroGrow]

this morning the leaf damage appears to be progressing. looking at the plant with the most damage, i can see several RA micros on the side of the netpot. i cant treat with imid this late in bloom so i tried spectracide triazicide. i cant watch the slow motion death again.

i have another plant that has been flowering about 1 week. it was treated with imid the same as the other 2 that are 3 weeks along. i decided to use the spectracide on it also just to be safe even though it looks absolutely beautiful and i have been trying with a loupe to find an RA on this one and was not able to no matter how long and hard i tried. but after adding the spectracide and filling buckets all the way up so the water contacted everything including the hydroton, i did see at least 1 live one crawl up the netpot outside above the hydroton- so those things are in that one also. it seems once there is visible damage on the leaves, there is major infestation in my DWC.

damn..... i was really, really happy for a few days there. this is not good

In a recirculating system,much harder to get imid in the plant by adding to reservoir. And plants are already hydrated.
What you might want to try is a foliar spray, using Dutch Master's Penetrator Gold, or if you can't get that, a bit of dish soap, which helps introduce whatever you are spraying into the leaves/plant. If you read the label on Bayer advanced, it can be used on edibles anywhere between 7-21 days before harvest, depending on the plant or vegetable. I don't know what stage you are in, but if you are early in flower, I would try this at least on one plant, just to see the result.
The information on foliar application is on the label of Bayer Advanced.

 

[EclipseFour20]

I had RAs and I have a perpetual garden...yes, you can win the battle! But you need more than just 1 gun in your arsenal--and you must rotate them! You will not win if you exclusively use Imid. Hitting RAs with the same pesticide--or "Mode of Action"--repeatedly and exclusively will cause the surviving RAs to become resistant and potentially morph into super RAs.

Mode of Action...WTF? Well, there are almost 30 different classifications and here is a nice resource
http://www.irac-online.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/MoA-brochure-v4.2-5Oct10.pdf

Imid's classification is: 4A--Nicotinic Acetylcholine Receptor Disruptors. Act on the central nervous system by binding to post-synaptic enzyme receptors and permanently blocking them. Blockage disrupts nerve transmission and contributes to rapid, uncontrolled nerve firing, leading to hyperexitation, paralysis, and death.

It is like the school yard bully that hits everyone in the nose..eventually you learn to block the hit. But if the bully did a 1-2-3 (nose, stomach & groin)...well, I think you see where I am going. Rotation of pesticides with MoA from group 1 AChE Inhibitors (Carbamates), from group 3 Sodium Channel Blockers (Pyrethroids) and from the non-chem group, Desiccation or Membrane Disruptors (essential oils, Botanigard & potassium salts of fatty acids--insecticidal soap) is what I did. You rotate your poisons and then all of a sudden, one day you will notice no fliers, no scampering critters, no dead carcasses, and healthy plants.

Good tutorial on Resistance Management...
http://www.ksre.ksu.edu/library/entml2/mf2905.pdf

Before overdosing your plants with Imid...may I suggest your read what it does; the half-life can be as long as 997 days in aerobic conditions...and as little as 27 days.
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/Imidclprdfate2.pdf

Link to the more environmental fate reviews...full of good info!
http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/envfate.htm

BTW...Botanigard is the only thing I would use in flower...it worked 100% for me--2 treatments are required.
http://www.bioworksinc.com/products/shared/controlling-root-aphids-with-botanigard.pdf

Buy it online...here:
http://www.growninmyownbackyard.com/BotaniGard.html

Also...before using 15-50ml of Imid per gallon, you might calculate the exact amount of the active ingredient in your dosage; some of the numbers I have seen here border on termiticide levels. The maximum suggested dosage of the active ingredient Imid for food crops is 0.5 pounds (227 grams) per acre...at 43,560 sq ft that equates to 0.0052 grams of active ingredient per square foot (about the size of my growing container). Bayer Adv Tree & Shrub has 1.47% Imid...and my math indicates for one square foot--0.341 ml of this concentration is equal to 0.5 pounds per acre. Put differently, the entire 40 ounce bottle of Bayer Adv Tree & Shrub contains about 0.1275 pounds of Imid--good for 1/4 acre....or about 5,000-10,000 plants. Just saying...do your math before you pour the poisons.

Be informed...Cheers!

 

[puff adder]

7-10 ml of Bayer tree and shrub soil drench, and a soil drench with Azamax a week later did the trick for me both times I got RA.