Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[Leonard NeemOil]

I leave leaves on until they are completely drained of green since that is what the plant is feeding on when they need it most. It would be like pulling a bowl of rice from a starving child.

I'm so glad I didn't follow the advice of those who said it is hopeless and the only thing to do is trash everything and start over.

My plants were heavily infested before flowering. The roots hanging out of the pots were covered in aphids, it was like a freaking conga line of vermin on the worst roots.

$40 dollars worth of weekly azamax root drenches was worth it for me. My plants are about 2 weeks from harvest. Some are below average but I still have a nice supply of medicine to look forward to. And I didn't have to resort to toxic chems.


Here is a crappy webcam shot of the ladies out of the closet.

 

[BigSwifty]

I leave leaves on until they are completely drained of green since that is what the plant is feeding on when they need it most. It would be like pulling a bowl of rice from a starving child.

I'm so glad I didn't follow the advice of those who said it is hopeless and the only thing to do is trash everything and start over.

My plants were heavily infested before flowering. The roots hanging out of the pots were covered in aphids, it was like a freaking conga line of vermin on the worst roots.

$40 dollars worth of weekly azamax root drenches was worth it for me. My plants are about 2 weeks from harvest. Some are below average but I still have a nice supply of medicine to look forward to. And I didn't have to resort to toxic chems.


Here is a crappy webcam shot of the ladies out of the closet.

Agreed. It's silly to scrap. As far as I can tell these bugs really only affect your yield. It's not like they are ruining the buds like spider mites!

I've had an interesting infestation. Noticed them about day 25. Had to kill the worst-affected plant. It was COMPLETELY yellow by about day 30 or so, although it was still growing. The second most infested plant seems to have completely recovered! It's still yellow, but it's growing massive colas and drinking very fast like it did before root aphids. However, the aphid infestation had moved onto some other plants that are now suffering and are VERY small.

I did the same thing and treated hard for 1-2 weeks. Every plant got 2 drenches of nicotine or pyrethrum. Then I added nematodes... It hasn't wiped them out, but I haven't seen any. I know they're still there, but I should be able to get through harvest.

 

[Leonard NeemOil]

I also added nematodes before using the azamax. I used the max recommended azamax dose for root drenching and then repeated 3 days later, then once a week. I sprayed each pot by hand with a pump sprayer and also the outside and bottoms of the pots were thoroughly soaked.

I checked the nematode sponge that was in my res with a microscope and there were still wiggling nematodes even though azamax is listed as a nematode control but maybe they mean the kind of nematodes that eat plants, not predators.

I quick dried some samples and cannot taste any neem from the azamax. I am sensitive to the taste of neem and could taste it in plants that I sprayed a month before harvest in a previous crop. I no longer spray anything, besides water, on the upper part of the plants while flowering.

 

[Norkali]

Very helpful video, touches upon root aphids

 

[Neo 420]

For the merit users:
Please provide the full name of the merit you are using. I am having a hard time finding this stuff.

 

[peregrinus]

Hi all, just wanted to say thanks a million times over for all the work and research that's gone into this thread! I've spent tons of dough and pulled out lots of my hair chasing a phantom "cal/mag or phosphorous" deficiency for my last 2 grows. I finally decided it was a virus or pest and not a nutrient problem, and luckily I arrived at this thread. I'm at the end of a disappointing grow right now, about 50% yield of what it should be. I noticed most of this thread is focused on saving a crop, so I'll be documenting my clean up and (hopefully) transition to a bug free next crop.

Couple of things before I get to the survey....

I gotta say, I felt relieved last night when I went into my room and caught a few of these critters and had a look in the scope. It sucks to be faced with this, but after 6 months of chasing a deficiency phantom, I'm just stoked to have a direction to move in.

I have seen just a few "fliers" in my room, but I noticed a while ago that my sick plants all have what look to be spider mite eggs (small round pearl-like orbs) on the bottoms of the leaves. I've battled spider mites plenty of times before, so i know what hatched mites and their leaf damage looks like. I have never been able to find a single spider mite or web or stippled leaf, so I think these eggs belong to one of the gnat or aphid species living in my room.

I live on the central coast of CA, in wine country, wineries all around me.

I'm going to see what i can do about getting some photos thru my scope to help ID these guys, but from what I've read and seen here, I think I have both fungus gnats and winged root aphids. Ok, now for the survey and I'll report back later with pics. Once again, thanks to all who've contributed to this informative thread!!!


1)Do you have root aphids? Yes, I think so

A)Do they look like any of the bugs pictured/linked in the first post? ("crabs" "tank beetles" "micros" or "psulloxera"? - use at least 10X magnification to see. If not, describe. Post a pic if possible! Will post pics later

B)Do you have/have you had fliers (winged version)? - Do they look like the two pictured at the top of the first post, or like the "Tank Beetle" fliers pictured here: http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/50...4mass0bugs.jpg Haven't seen any "beetle" or "crab" forms, just fliers with black bodies, some with clear wings that have parallel veins and little hairs on the wing tip edges, some with dark wings with branched veins that have smooth edges.

C)Have you noticed a waxy residue in the medium, on and around roots? Not on roots, but on rockwool starter cubes

D)Have you tried any control methods/substances? What has and has not worked? No

2)Do you have nutrient lockout/deficiency symptoms? Yes

A)Do the symptoms seem to be connected to/tied to root aphid population? Not sure yet, but starts to be pronounced 3rd or 4th week into flowering

B)Do they look like magnesium or potassium deficiency? YES!!

3)What is your grow setup like? (closet/room, high air exchange vs. closed w/ CO2) 4x8x8 room, high air exchange, 1000w HPS, 4x4 tray, 2x 25 gal reservoirs

4)What medium/method do you do? (5-gal soil bags?/16 plants in NFT per 600W?/Bubble buckets w/ hydroton?) Ebb/flow with hydroton. Starts in rockwool or rapid rooters, then moved to 1 gal pots w/hydroton.

5)What nutrient line do you use? (recipe/ppms?) FloraNova Bloom (Lucas method) so around 1000ppm @ .5 conversion, 1400ppm @ .7 conversion

6)Do you foliar-spray your plants? What do you spray with? pH of spray? No

 

[BigSwifty]

Anybody ever seen the movie Bug??

My girlfriend thinks I'm going nuts like that guy because I keep talking about aphids! LMAO!!:yay:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0470705/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slg59ufLKXk

My yield has been squashed!! At day 50 I have a 3ft tall sour diesel plant that looks like it'll yield about 1/4 - 1/2 dry...

 

[ItsGrowTime]

Never the type to give up, I checked my local Ace Hardware for their selection of bug killers. I was pleasantly surprised to see their selection was, while smaller, more "potent" than Home Depot's. I picked up a bottle of concentrated Malathion 50 and a bottle of concentrated 10% systemic Acephate. Acephate is also indicated as effective against phylloxera and will be used instead of Imid on my next crop. Imid, while not being very effective, also made my plants grow a little different than normal?

I did some spraying with the diluted Malathion 50 since it's not systemic and the label calls for only 7 days wait before harvesting. Maybe that will kill off the nymphs Ive been seeing. I can already tell yield is going to be affected negatively. These are some nasty bastard bugs.

 

[mcmawg]

Checkin' back in.

Daa ta daaa; daa ta daaaaa; daa ta daaa, daa ta daa, da ta daaaa...(sniff, wipes nose...)
Taps time for the six.
Went through the "scrap it/don't scrap it" histrionics; better for me and my crew to scrap and move on with a healthier set of clones.
Too much overall damage to consider trying to grow em out and hope they recover.
They COULD recover, but WHEN? And what about the yield?
Time/energy spent vs. return on investment? Not a good profit with this batch.

The 150 ml of Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub (1.5% imid) knocked out most, but not ALL the critters over a 2-3 day period.
Check out my recent root pics in my album to see how nasty the infest was...
I wasn't able to check out the grow space as thoroughly as I'd liked, as my partner had a few of his own ideas about how to proceed.

The partner aspect of all this...hmmm.
My buddy, unbenownst to me, decided to hack (clone) 'em and put the cuttings in soil.
When I got there a couple days later, the remainders of the six were sitting in the nets outside in the sun, with the grow room shut down.
The clones he'd sliced off were sitting in some soil pots; didn't look all that bad, but...
Auuughhhhh!

AND, he'd decided he's now 'retiring' from the hydro universe and will be rolling with the soil/outdoor routine.
Fair enough, I 'spect.
We're still partners and such, but will have a couple different grows going.
Nuttin' wrong wit dat!
I'm picking up all the equip and rolling it into a place I'm finishing construction on; I'll have a better set-up and one I can visit daily to keep tabs on progress.
I'm quite keen on maintaining a clean grow space.
Now that I know these lil' bastiges are a "Clear and Present Danger", I can Harrison Ford on these buggers and their brethren to keep 'em out of my grow and keep my fingers from pulling out the remaining hair on my noggin'.

Thanks for all your help and info on these fockers, I'll keep abreast and chime in with additional info along the way.

mcmawg

 

[Fat J]

Careful with the acephate man - I know someone who lost a whole round due to root burn from it. What type of growth differences did u see with imid? I didnt see any on mine. It was pretty effective for me.

 

[spleebale]

I think "commercial" Home Depot type solutions just aren't strong enough to be a permanent solution. The stuff is diluted so much that it dissipates quickly.

GrowTime: Not really. Almost everyone who has used the Bayer imid products seem to have had great results in decimating the aphid population. The imid itself probably does not kill everything it touches, but once it is absorbed into the plant, root-sucking insects die when they feed - and they don't seem to know better than to not eat. Most people have found that about 5 mL/gal of Bayer T&S (about 10 mL Bayer Complete Insect Killer) seemed to work well. I recommend use up to 25 mL/gal T&S or 50 mL/gal Complete Insect Killer (As per recommendation by bali_man). The latter has worked very well for me at apparently wiping everything out and keeping them gone (I cannot find any in soil, coco+soil or in my rockwool mini-cubes, and I don't think I have seen any fliers [I have seen about 3-4 fungus gnats a week and they all seem for sure like fungus gnats, though I have not been able to catch/kill all of them]

Note: applying imid products does seem to shock plant to some extent; if they are healthy they get over it right away, where most people report a positive change in appearance (new growth etc) the very next day. If plants are unhealthy, imid treatment can stress them and cause them to stall (sometimes even induces outbreaks of pathogens, like fungal leaf issues). The most important thing is to be careful with imid in recirculating hydro systems; far less imid is necessary when there will be such repeated contact with roots (5-20 mL C.I.K or 2.5-10 mL T&S). It is also important to run the pesticides for only a short period of time (2-4 hrs should be plenty!) and then change out the res and run the system again. I would personally base the length of time and concentration on how "exposed" the roots will be to the pesticide; DWC/hydrofarm systems probably only need ~30 min exposure with very low doses (since roots will be continually soaked in the solution). NFT and aero type systems could probably use slightly higher doses and exposure time, and top-feed or ebb/flow probably a bit more/longer still (perhaps 2-4 waterings for such container-hydro or rockwool slab/Hugo cube systems). Using higher levels of pesticides than the system calls for or letting pesticides stay around too long can be a recipe for disaster, as plants do not like to be continually exposed to the imid products (even at low levels) for very long.

Many people have found that the plant(s) remain severely damaged after the aphid population has been entirely eradicated. I have found this absolutely to be the case. If the aphids got to high populations, they may have ruined most of the roots by essentially poisoning them - they mostly refuse to heal or to grow. Also - the lesions created by aphids and damage to plant immune systems invites other pathogens and even viruses to attack vulnerable plants - this is almost certainly what I am battling right now.

It seems to me that people who only have the root aphids to deal with (Fat J and others who claim no more problems) are lucky. It seems like in cases where there are no other compounding problems, that RAs tend to only hurt the vigor of the plant, reducing how much it drinks and promoting yellowing of the leaves that looks mostly like a bit of nitrogen deficiency. For those of us who have far more severe symptoms that look like magnesium/potassium deficiency which takes hold fast and progresses rapidly, causing serious leaf-necrosis: I believe that the root aphids were only the front-line of the problem. It think that other pathogens or perhaps even viruses are affecting our plants, causing much more serious symptoms/problems as soon as root aphids or fungus gnats start to take hold, or when any circumstances shock the plants or reduce their immunity.

I do not have conclusive evidence on this yet, but I have dramatically reduced my RA population to practically nil and I still see symptoms in various systems, seemingly triggered by different problems (spraying with things the plant doesn't like seems to be the biggest culprit - anything with petroleum products in it, especially after plants have received foliar Mag-Amp, which I am stopping now). There is also a thin brown film on some of the roots of my plants in keg-cups in rockwool mini-cubes - even though aphids have been gone for weeks and I have treated with H2O2, Hygrozyme, Voodoo Juice, trichoderma etc... The plants continue to grow but the roots don't seem to.

"Film" is actually not the right word for it. The first stages of it seem to be the root turning somewhat translucent and off-white (rather than looking bone-white and opaque) as if it has pus inside it. Then (presumably, as I have not directly observed this as a progression) the root gets a glossy film [for lack of better word] on it that is only really visible under magnification (though you can see the light-brownness with the bare eye) In some places along the root there are small brown glops of gross-stuff that make up most of the brownness. In one of my hydro systems that I re-planted after the aphids and heavy chem applications, the large chunks of perlite were also covered with this shiny, light-brown gloss that is not super-apparent unless you look at one of the coated chunks of perlite next to one that is not coated.

I suspect that this is an organism. It is possible that this is the root-killing spit that aphids left behind, but it seems that it would have been washed of by now. Treatment with H2O2 and beneficials has not been conclusive (though I am yet to do a quality experiment, things I have tested have not resulted in sudden explosions of nice new roots in badly affected plants).


Conclusions:

-imid is sufficient to control root aphids (especially
when you follow up with a secondary control method), especially at 40-50 mL/gal Bayer Complete Insect Killer.

-Plants which are badly affected can often continue to have bad problems indefinitely after the aphids have been controlled. Other pathogens and even viruses are the worst part of the problem. Putting plants in the most hospitable environments possible after heavy treatment will dramatically increase the chances and rapidity of recovery [transplanting is best in most cases, B-Vitamins, mild nutes - particularly if you can use organic-based food with an infusion of beneficial, floros with a good spectrum are preferable if plants are unhealthy - otherwise raise lights. MH is probably better than HPS.]

-Spraying plants with oils, petroleum products and other things they don't like is one way to exacerbate problems and perhaps create new ones

-I have not done any experiments yet, but an immunity-booster may be very useful - probably best for plants in early growth BEFORE they have problems, but may still be useful in beefing-up plant response to pathogens or viruses. Immunity boosters I know of are: -"Messenger" (foliar spray - harpin protein) "Bud Factor X" (Advanced Nutrients - foliar/watering - Salicylic Acid + Chitosan), "Foliar BLOOM" (Advanced Floriculture - Foliar [has nothing to do with blooming - all bottles say "BLOOM"] - Plant Health Regulators (I forget which - I lost the sheet on it) And then also good 'ol Aspirin (Acetylsalicylic Acid) is said to induce plant immune response and can be watered or applied as a foliar - although there is debate about whether it is 'supposed' to induce or inhibit immune response, I believe this is an old method.

Soooo..... I don't think this thread is as easy as root-aphid attack methods anymore... which is why I have been pushing for collectively sharing as much information about individual cases as possible.

Which brings me to - Peregrinus: Sorry to see you join us but happy to have you with us! Thank you so much for your immediate contribution to the working database of info going on here. A few quick questions: 1) Is your water really hard? Well maybe you should go stroke it off then... hehe, just kidding. But your ppms seem really high for .5 and .7 Lucas Formula - what is your water's starting ppm? Have you done the ice-cube test (put a shot glass or whatever of water in the freezer and see what it comes out looking like - the more white and opaque, the worse your water is) You could have aphids AND bad water, causing lockout.
2) What do you pH your water to? Do you pH it regularly? Does it drift? If so, how significantly?

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Well, imid didn't do it for me, they're back. My next treatment will be what several have mentioned pyganic

I read through the literature and I can mix aza products and treat together.

Here's my new plan

First, I'm letting them dry out.

I'm going to mix the proper amounts of pyganic and azamax to have a spray and also a root drench. Then I'll spray the soil surface and the drain holes. Then root drench with just the pyganic mixed with Bt. (apparently you can mix pyganic with almost anything ) The Bt is in case I have a gnat thing again from outside again. Here's a question, do fungas gnats ever have a stage where they walk, on legs and up the stalk and onto a leaf. I didn't fly away did I see wings. Very small. The body was kinda see through is like a fungas gnat larvea.

Either way, I'm going to add diamataechous earth to the top of the pots. How much? I have a small box but I can go get a 50# bag for $20

What I need is an opinion on the best process for the root drench. How wet mostly.

I need to know if I mix up 10,20,30 gallons.

Do I soak the thing like I'm flushing?
Just wet enough to be considered watering with a little runoff? I have plants from beer cup to 15 gallon. Lotsa water, was planning on PH to 5.9

Thanks a lot guys
smiley

 

[BORNaSMOKER]

can i just say I have had this problem in other grows and have completely stopped the problem by using deeper pots than i need and putting and inch of perlite ath the top of each pot. Solved my aphid, gnat and mag rpob immediatly.


sorry if someone has already said this. I just wanted to help, not read the whole thread!!!

 

[Neo 420]

I did some spraying with the diluted Malathion 50 since it's not systemic and the label calls for only 7 days wait before harvesting. .

I called Ortho and it was recommended that at least 21 days past before harvest.

 

[spleebale]

GS: I am sorry to hear your woes continue. Did you just do normal dose on the imid? I HIGHly recommend Bayer Complete Insect Killer at 40-50 mL/gal - I have tried it in multiple different media (hydro-style to soil/coco + soil) and have killed pretty much everything in each case.

Note: applying imid products does seem to shock plant to some extent; if they are healthy they get over it right away, where most people report a positive change in appearance (new growth etc) the very next day. If plants are unhealthy, imid treatment can stress them and cause them to stall (sometimes even induces outbreaks of pathogens, like fungal leaf issues). The most important thing is to be careful with imid in recirculating hydro systems; far less imid is necessary when there will be such repeated contact with roots (5-20 mL C.I.K or 2.5-10 mL T&S). It is also important to run the pesticides for only a short period of time (2-4 hrs should be plenty!) and then change out the res and run the system again. I would personally base the length of time and concentration on how "exposed" the roots will be to the pesticide; DWC/hydrofarm systems probably only need ~30 min exposure with very low doses (since roots will be continually soaked in the solution). NFT and aero type systems could probably use slightly higher doses and exposure time, and top-feed or ebb/flow probably a bit more/longer still (perhaps 2-4 waterings for such container-hydro or rockwool slab/Hugo cube systems). Using higher levels of pesticides than the system calls for or letting pesticides stay around too long can be a recipe for disaster, as plants do not like to be continually exposed to the imid products (even at low levels) for very long.

Then again, I have "CRABS" - I forget which sort you have. I only imagine those Tank Beetles are far more gnarly and resilient.

I am really not sure about the repeated use of pyrethrum - it is a bit expensive to use as often as I think you need to, and I think it probably harms the plant a bit, even without the oils and petroleum distillates. In my experience with pyrethrum with mites, it is easy for thngs to build up a tolerance to as some will inevitably live each time and you nee to apply it regularly to keep population levels down - though i am not sure as I do not have experience with it. I would recommend 2-3 higher strength applications spaced 3-5 days apart as opposed to weekly applications for the whole cycle.

Pyrethrum is not super-strong and I would recommend it more as a secondary control method (after use of a systemic). I would apply the Bayer CIK at high doses and see how that does and resort to acephate if it doesn't cut it - I think that you will probably just be chasing bugs continually with regular setbacks in plant health if you use pyrethrum alone - not certain at all, just my assessment from people's responses about pyrethrum control.

Hope you work it out either way!

-WB

 

[ItsGrowTime]

I called Ortho and it was recommended that at least 21 days past before harvest.

Then someone is lying! Its not something Im very concerned with though since it's not systemic and I dont spray the buds, just the lower stem area and hydroton in the netpot to get it into the root area. I didnt see any bugs on hydroton at all today and my plants looked a bit happier too.

GrowTime: Not really. Almost everyone who has used the Bayer imid products seem to have had great results in decimating the aphid population. The imid itself probably does not kill everything it touches, but once it is absorbed into the plant, root-sucking insects die when they feed - and they don't seem to know better than to not eat. Most people have found that about 5 mL/gal of Bayer T&S (about 10 mL Bayer Complete Insect Killer) seemed to work well. I recommend use up to 25 mL/gal T&S or 50 mL/gal Complete Insect Killer (As per recommendation by bali_man).

That just sounds like a crazy amount to me. Im running 60 gals recirc so 50ml/gal is 3000/ml or 600 tsp. Math...math...That's 100 fluid ozs! That's alot of pesticide in my res! Good post overall though. Btw, 1000ppm at .5 conversion is a little high for Lucas formula but only by approx 70ppm.

 

[Buffoonman]

After trying several expensive treatments, I found two inches of sand on top of your soil is the best way to stop fungus Gnats it sounds simple but it is effective.

 

[justalilrowdy]

These critters are scary! I have never seen such an epidemic since the market started! I posted this on the farmers market thread but wanted to pass it along here as well.. We gotta get rid of these crappy little critters..
I want to remind everyone that comes to the market or anyone shopping anywhere for clones that it looks like the state is experiencing a huge root aphid epidemic and be sure to look all the plants over thouroughly before you buy plants from ANYWHERE! Lets get this problem beat back! It sounds like Norcali has a great recipe thats working for him. We will be providing a lighted magnifier loaner to check the plants with (just ask) and its a great investment to always take with you when you are clone shopping. If the club or vendor gets nervous when you pull out a magnifier then I would go a different direction. Pull the plant out of the pot and check those roots.. dig down the center a little ways and check the top roots.. It wont hurt a thing if the plant is healthy and if there are issues you will most likely see them.
We need to put the skids on the old root aphid experience.
Be diligent and CHECK THOSE PLANTS!
We are checking random plants from everyone who vends but realistically we cant check em all
Buyer Beware!!

 

[phatsesh]

i did an azamax chris soap drench from the drain holes and as the liquid started to fill up them fukkers started to run out so topped the soil with de and watch as they tried to crawl through it. you gotta becarful so the de dont get wet. a day later the bottom of they tray i filled was covered in millions of the little buggers.

i ve done it twice since and have no more crwaling out with good veg growth but im still taking cuts for new mothers and will be using some recommendations from the norcali vid i was already thinkig about like encasing the root zone in smart pots for a couple months.

just a thought but i was thinking about using heat to kill bugs, i saw a show where they pumped 140 degree air into a house until all the roaches and stuff were dead and took about 3 hours, i know with an increased co2 level the plants can stand a higher temp, has anyone else thought of or tried this.

 

[phatsesh]

oops forgot to subscribe