Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

[SOTF420]

I can tell you guys that these are a sure thing if you use Miracle Grow potting soils, they are infested with these eggs and these little fuckers are nearly impossible to get rid of. I really hate em.

I also won't use anything toxic on plants I am going to comsume so my best results have come from repeated spraying with Insecticidal Soaps, the Safer's brand is decent but goes quickly so buy a few bottles, it's usualy available at stores like Home Depot, Lowes, etc. You just have to be relentless in treatment until all the egg laying flyers are gone and let the medium dry out completely (as much as possible without plants dying). If you do this religiously and spray soil and plants several times a week with the Safer Soap you should get them fully under control in about 2 - 3 weeks time. With no toxic poisons.

 

[peregrinus]

Just a quick update. I'm mid way thru harvesting and I finally got some photos to share. Sorry about the poor quality, I just put my digi cam up to my scope ocular.

I'm now starting to think I am only dealing with Fungus Gnats, and that they may be introducing a pathogen into my crops. I can find very few of the adults, and I think I may have some winged immatures (or some other species, maybe the pics will show). My root balls are very healthy looking/smelling and I can't seem to find any grubs/pupae in the roots under the scope. Maybe someone can help me diagnose by looking at these pics.....

Adult Fungus Gnat?

Immature gnat, or some other species??? The antennae seem much more segmented

Here's some of the leaf damage, AKA "phantom deficiency" I've been chasing for 2 crops, starts 3rd-4th week of flower

Upper leaves show damage first

Lower leaves show damage much later, maybe 2-3 weeks later

And finally, here are the tiny "eggs" I'm seeing all over the lower surfaces of the "infected" plants. I know, I know, they look like spider mite eggs but I don't think they are. I have NO adult mites, no stippling on leaves, and I've been down that road before. Also can't seem to find any of these hatching or ANYTHING crawling on my leaves.

Thanks in advance to anyone who looks at this, really appreciate it. This forum is a HUGE resource, and I plan on contributing more to this thread as I get back up and running for my next round. Hopefully bug free!

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

That immature fungus gnat pic is fantastic. For the first time ever I saw one of those and thought it might be an immature aphid. It couldn't even fly yet. It walked across the soil and when I went to grab it it ran up the stalk and onto the bottom of a leaf and stared at me. Could only walk.

On the aphids.

The very first treatment I did was azamax and pyreth spray and drench. The flyers and BLACK tank beetle stages died off immediately. By the time I found the actual white.clear aphids eating roots it had already looked like lockout cal mag. those aphids did not die from the same treatment that was performed earlier.

So the early stage has a quick rather easy die off and the others need a stronger pyreth or imid etc thats my thought anyways.

i don't think I've seen eggs or any waxy buildup etc

 

[phatsesh]

looks like an aphid to me, its a lil more fly like than mosquito and there is no sucker. my infestation started as a deficiancy that i couldnt exactly identify (as i battled it it would change and no two plants exihibited the same exact def. the next crop had flyers i thought were fungus gnats until i drenched them and the fuckers ran out of the clones cups and i saw them on the rim then i knew.


now im baking some ffof getting ready to start over.

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

check google images for fungus gnats then some pics of phylloxera and you'll see how rounded off the aphids are.

gnat

 

[J R]

Has anyone tried SEVIN dust on top of the media? Water a little in and kills APHIDS and GNATS and ????? It is non systemic and used on a tons of the veggies you eat.

Testing now....have sprinkled on top of the coco coir.

 

[ItsGrowTime]

Just a quick update. I'm mid way thru harvesting and I finally got some photos to share. Sorry about the poor quality, I just put my digi cam up to my scope ocular.

Great pics there. What is the magnification of your scope? Are those the only kind of bugs you've found in your entire garden?

Your symptoms sound almost exactly like what Im experiencing and the leaf damage is very similar. I too never see any critters on leaves or stems, just occasionally on the hydroton and fliers. Keep us posted on what you find plz.

 

[spleebale]

Grow Time: Sorry, I figured you could use less water to apply chems, I forgot to mention, but I never fill a full res with chems - if possible I make 1-5 gal of it and apply it directly (pitcher or small pump + tube), otherwise I make the least amount necessary to water whatever system needs it - recirculating if necessary or just doing the chem application as the final watering before the lights go off so it has time to soak in/do its job.

Anyhow, if you have to make 60-gal of solution to apply chems, I see that being a problem with almost any of the substances except perhaps acephate (which does shock the plant/reduce immunity temporarily).

GS: My aphids are not NEARLY as round and plump as phylloxera - so far as I can tell, none of the 5 or so distinct types we are dealing with are even true phylloxera (the small, yellow, shiny-but-crinkly-looking, almost microscopic aphid (unless it has many sub-species or various morphologies).

Peregrinus: Kick ass! You are the man (presumably)! Those photos are fantastic! I would love to see different stages of the crawlers as well. Those are two separate bugs in the photos, right? It seems to me that the top one is a mature winged root aphid and the bottom one is a fungus gnat - this is just what I referred to about how the aphids take on a much more slender, aerodynamic form and their heads become distinct from their bodies and their cornicles (ass-pipes) become less pronounced (though you can still see them in your photo). Though I reserve the possibility that those are the same creature, possibly fungus gnat, they seem to be a bit distinct. Notice how the top one has larger wings and the photo did a great job of capturing the iridescence of RA wings. Also notice how the body of the bottom one has a thorax that is far more distinct from its abdomen - it is a different color, seems to have fuzz on it and the critter is more curved from head to thorax to abdomen - where the one above looks more straight except for the head. The one above is beefier in general as well and has a more cylindrical thorax+ abdomen. All of these aspects are in line with what we know about fungus gnats vs root aphids and this would help to support my theory and explain my initial confusion (where I would capture something that flew and ran around just like a root aphid, but under magnification it would appear to have a body structure much more like a fungus gnat - distinct head, more slender body, no visible cornicles).

I think that this is the fully developed form of the root aphid, where its features are optimized for flying and where it no longer needs its cornicles.

Also: I too have tons of eggs all over, but it is hard to say what they are because I also have a bad case of mites. It does seem as though there are far too many eggs in many places for the number and maturity of mites in those places - so perhaps the dying aphids went to the leaves and laid eggs? - But I cannot say for sure - there have been several warm days lately and my mite population is pretty bad. Just thought it deserved mention.

-WB

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Whereas the early black ones and the clear ones look incredibly similar in my case I still think we can all agree these aren't phylloxera, but I think the life cycle chart has to be very very similar when compared to what we are seeing in our garden

What do you think?

 

[peregrinus]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback already. I'm going to go on the hunt again tonite, try to catch a few more and get pics. Also, FYI, I'm growing 3 strains, and the one in the pics is Snow White, hit the hardest by far. The other 2 don't seem to be suffering as much, but everything is generally lacking in vigor and density.

@IGT: Not sure what magnification its at, its a standard college lab dissecting scope. Yes, the only bugs Ive been able to find in my garden look like the 2 in the photos above. No mites, no beetles, crawlers, etc. I haven't treated with any controls yet, so nothing to report from the runoff

@Slpee: yeah, those are 2 separate insects there. Both were caught on tape down in my root zone., I have two 2x4 trays with covers over the tops. I have on occasion seen a few crawling on top of the hydroton. I noticed before that some had dark wings and some had iridescent ones. The iridescent ones have little hairy fringes on the wing tips . I'm on the fence, I took entomology in college so I know how radically different stages can look in an insects life cycle.

 

[RetroGrow]

[QUOTE

It seems to me that people who only have the root aphids to deal with (Fat J and others who claim no more problems) are lucky. It seems like in cases where there are no other compounding problems, that RAs tend to only hurt the vigor of the plant, reducing how much it drinks and promoting yellowing of the leaves that looks mostly like a bit of nitrogen deficiency. For those of us who have far more severe symptoms that look like magnesium/potassium deficiency which takes hold fast and progresses rapidly, causing serious leaf-necrosis: I believe that the root aphids were only the front-line of the problem. It think that other pathogens or perhaps even viruses are affecting our plants, causing much more serious symptoms/problems as soon as root aphids or fungus gnats start to take hold, or when any circumstances shock the plants or reduce their immunity.

I do not have conclusive evidence on this yet, but I have dramatically reduced my RA population to practically nil and I still see symptoms in various systems, seemingly triggered by different problems (spraying with things the plant doesn't like seems to be the biggest culprit - anything with petroleum products in it, especially after plants have received foliar Mag-Amp, which I am stopping now). There is also a thin brown film on some of the roots of my plants in keg-cups in rockwool mini-cubes - even though aphids have been gone for weeks and I have treated with H2O2, Hygrozyme, Voodoo Juice, trichoderma etc... The plants continue to grow but the roots don't seem to.

"Film" is actually not the right word for it. The first stages of it seem to be the root turning somewhat translucent and off-white (rather than looking bone-white and opaque) as if it has pus inside it. Then (presumably, as I have not directly observed this as a progression) the root gets a glossy film [for lack of better word] on it that is only really visible under magnification (though you can see the light-brownness with the bare eye) In some places along the root there are small brown glops of gross-stuff that make up most of the brownness. In one of my hydro systems that I re-planted after the aphids and heavy chem applications, the large chunks of perlite were also covered with this shiny, light-brown gloss that is not super-apparent unless you look at one of the coated chunks of perlite next to one that is not coated.

I suspect that this is an organism. It is possible that this is the root-killing spit that aphids left behind, but it seems that it would have been washed of by now. Treatment with H2O2 and beneficials has not been conclusive (though I am yet to do a quality experiment, things I have tested have not resulted in sudden explosions of nice new roots in badly affected plants).


Conclusions:

-imid is sufficient to control root aphids (especially
when you follow up with a secondary control method), especially at 40-50 mL/gal Bayer Complete Insect Killer.
Soooo..... I don't think this thread is as easy as root-aphid attack methods anymore... which is why I have been pushing for collectively sharing as much information about individual cases as possible.

[/QUOTE]

No question, when the plant is under attack, it is weakened and more susceptible to other infections. Usually there are multiple things going on. It sounds like you may have a bit of pythium or root rot. Pythium is believed to be transferred by fungus gnats, and could be by the root aphids too. These insects are disease vectors.
I'm somewhat surprised that some folks didn't get good results with the imid.
I checked my treated mother plant today, and not only are all the root aphids dead (noticed that right away), but all the springtails and fungus gnats also have died, due, I believe to the systemic nature of the imid. The springtails were thriving after the first drenching, but are dead now. I am also thinking it may be good to keep an imid treated mother around, as a treated plant becomes a weapon against the spread of various insects, breaking their life cycle.

 

[Neo 420]

1)Do you have root aphids? Yes. I had the aphid that are known over here as the micro's.

A)Do they look like any of the bugs pictured/linked in the first post? The Micro's

B)Do you have/have you had fliers (winged version)? I have seen no flyers.

C)Have you noticed a waxy residue in the medium, on and around roots? Yes. On the roots

D)Have you tried any control methods/substances? What has and has not worked? I used sprectacuide and ortho insecticidal soap. I have appeared to kill all the creatures. (I took the room down for redesign and cleansing

2)Do you have nutrient lockout/deficiency symptoms? Yes

A)Do the symptoms seem to be connected to/tied to root aphid population? Yes

B)Do they look like magnesium or potassium deficiency? YES!!

3)What is your grow setup like? I have a room with high speed air exchange, 3x6, 1800 watts

4)What medium/method do you do? Rockwool

5)What nutrient line do you use? I mix up some strange brews.

6)Do you foliar-spray your plants? What do you spray with? pH of spray? Yes. A light 200/300ppm veg/early flower mix foliar feed and Liquid lights.

The combo of sprectacuide and the insecticidal soap definitely appeared to control the aphids but the health of the plants continued to decline. I raised the lights and backed off the nutes to 400 or 500 ppm's but fan leaves were constantly showing severe signs of necrosis. I ended up harvesting on week 6 when I felt the sprectracide (Malathion- Recommended to me by Ortho with a PHI of 21 days) had left out of the plants system. If I had not of harvested I felt like the crop would be ruined. (If not already). So after harvest I decided to do a autopsy of the root and of the medium.
Upon slicing the 6x6 and 4x4 cubes into 1/4 and 1/2 inches I noticed what appeared to be eggs or larvae near the outside of the cubes near the gro-dan plastic.

Upon looking with a microscope the little dots appeared to look like long black elongated tear drops. They could be decaying bodies or larvae. (I lack the experience to identify but I will purchase equipment that will allow me to take magnified picture in the near future) I could not find anything that appeared to be living in the rockwool.
The roots had legions and some type of coating on them

This side experiment also opened my eyes to how the roots develop in rockwool. Roots balls just don't seem to get that big in gro dans. I had a friend who also grows in rockwool crack open his grodans and report to me the size of the root balls and it was in comparison to my in size. He had no issues with pest and had a successful harvest. I will be changing my medium.

 

[Leonard NeemOil]

Root Aphids trigger a strong systemic resistance response. Maybe some strains are unable to respond with enough accumulation of endogenous salicylic acid but respond with Jasmonic Acid which causes the plants to exhibit the "phantom deficiency". The major functions of JA in regulating plant growth include growth inhibition, senescence, and leaf abscission.

In plants, systemic acquired resistance (SAR) is a "whole-plant" resistance response that occurs following an earlier localized exposure to a pathogen. SAR is analogous to the innate immune system found in animals, and there is evidence that SAR in plants and innate immunity in animals may be evolutionarily conserved. SAR is important for plants to resist disease, as well as to recover from disease once formed. SAR can be induced by a wide range of pathogens, especially (but not only) those that cause tissue necrosis, and the resistance observed following induction of SAR is effective against a wide range of pathogens, which is why SAR resistance is sometimes called "broad spectrum." SAR is associated with the induction of a wide range of genes (so called PR or "pathogenesis-related" genes), and the activation of SAR requires the accumulation of endogenous salicylic acid (SA).

Plants choose ammunition carefully
September 3, 2009

Plants are anything but as defenceless as they might seem. Various plant hormones work together to specifically fend off attacks. Dutch researcher Antonio Leon-Reyes has now shown how these hormones cooperate. By 'consulting' with each other plant hormones determine which defence mechanism they shall set in motion.

Leon-Reyes investigated how three plant hormones - salicylic acid (SA), jasmonic acid (JA) and ethylene (ET) - cooperate with each other to initiate the correct defence response. The biologist used the model plant Arabidopsis thalania (thale cress) to analyse the communication lines between hormones. He discovered that JA is under the control of SA but if JA and ET cooperate then JA no longer 'listens' to SA.

Title: Mi-1 Mediated Aphid Resistance Involves Salicylic Acid and Mitogen-Activated Protein Kinase Signaling Cascades

Authors
item Li, Qi - UNIV OF CALIF-RIVERSIDE
item Xie, Qi-Guang - UNIV OF CALIF-RIVERSIDE
item Smith-Becker, Jennifer - UNIV OF CALIF-RIVERSIDE
item Navarre, Duroy
item Kaloshian, Isgouhi - UNIV OF CALIF-RIVERSIDE

Submitted to: Plant Physiology
Publication Type: Peer Reviewed Journal
Publication Acceptance Date: February 5, 2006
Publication Date: June 1, 2006

Interpretive Summary: This work showed that salicylic acid plays a major role in resistance to potato aphid conferred by the Mi-1 gene. Resistant plants that lost the ability to accumulate salicylic acid became completely susceptible to potato aphid. This work also shows that proteins called MAP kinases are also involved in the resistance response to potato aphid. These results further demonstrate that plant resistance to piercing-sucking insects is similar to that against other plant pathogens.

The following quote is from an Advanced Nutrient co-founder who is known for their marketing hype so they obviously want to sell their SA containing products but they do have a lot of knowledge. Finding a much cheaper source of pure SA is possible. I have not used it myself but am considering it.

Immunize Your Plant - If you do not work to prepare yourself against possible pathogens that might enter your garden, you are just asking for trouble. Even if you have done everything else right, a single harmful fungal or bacterial infection can turn all for the money and time that you have invested in your garden into a room full of wilted plants. Taking just a few moments to think about how to ward off diseases can go a long way. This is why it is essential to use a hydroponic product that uses salicylic acid. Using this product on your plants functions a lot like an inoculation in humans. It stimulates the immune system and makes them more prepared for any future possible outbreaks.

 

[peregrinus]

@Leonard: you can harvest salicylic acid from willows (Salix spp.) and even asprin. Methinks way cheaper than getting it from AN. Check it out....

http://www.bluestem.ca/willow-article1.htm

And thanks for the idea!

 

[Neo 420]

This would be a viable experiment!

He recommends we experiment by spraying some plants with a 1:10,000 solution (3 aspirins dissolved in 4 gallons of water), leaving other plants unsprayed. Tests have shown that the SAR activation lasts for weeks to months. (Sort of homeopathic heart attack prevention for your plants

 

[Neo 420]

The most common ingredients in aspirin:

acetylsalicylic acid: InChI=1/C9H8O4/c1-6(10)13-8-5-3-2-4-7(8)9(11)12/h2-5H,1H3,(H,11,12)/f/h11H

salicylic acid: InChI=1/C7H6O3/c8-6-4-2-1-3-5(6)7(9)10/h1-4,8H,(H,9,10)/f/h9H

acetaminophen: InChI=1/C8H9NO2/c1-6(10)9-7-2-4-8(11)5-3-7/h2-5,11H,1H3,(H,9,10)

ibuprofen: InChI=1/C13H18O2/c1-9(2)8-11-4-6-12(7-5-11)10(3)13(14)15/h4-7,9-10H,8H2,1-3H3,(H,14,15)

ibuprofen: InChI=1/C13H18O2/c1-9(2)8-11-4-6-12(7-5-11)10(3)13(14)15/h4-7,9-10H,8H2,1-3H3,(H,14,15)/t10-/m1/s1/f/h14H

ibuprofen: InChI=1/C13H18O2/c1-9(2)8-11-4-6-12(7-5-11)10(3)13(14)15/h4-7,9-10H,8H2,1-3H3,(H,14,15)/t10-/m0/s1/f/h14H

naproxen: InChI=1/C14H14O3/c1-9(14(15)16)10-3-4-12-8-13(17-2)6-5-11(12)7-10/h3-9H,1-2H3,(H,15,16)/f/h15H

 

[smokesalot420]

Just a quick update. I'm mid way thru harvesting and I finally got some photos to share. Sorry about the poor quality, I just put my digi cam up to my scope ocular.

I'm now starting to think I am only dealing with Fungus Gnats, and that they may be introducing a pathogen into my crops. I can find very few of the adults, and I think I may have some winged immatures (or some other species, maybe the pics will show). My root balls are very healthy looking/smelling and I can't seem to find any grubs/pupae in the roots under the scope. Maybe someone can help me diagnose by looking at these pics.....

Adult Fungus Gnat?

Immature gnat, or some other species??? The antennae seem much more segmented

Here's some of the leaf damage, AKA "phantom deficiency" I've been chasing for 2 crops, starts 3rd-4th week of flower

Upper leaves show damage first

Lower leaves show damage much later, maybe 2-3 weeks later

And finally, here are the tiny "eggs" I'm seeing all over the lower surfaces of the "infected" plants. I know, I know, they look like spider mite eggs but I don't think they are. I have NO adult mites, no stippling on leaves, and I've been down that road before. Also can't seem to find any of these hatching or ANYTHING crawling on my leaves.

Thanks in advance to anyone who looks at this, really appreciate it. This forum is a HUGE resource, and I plan on contributing more to this thread as I get back up and running for my next round. Hopefully bug free!

100 percent sure those are fungus gnats. Aphids have 2 small cornicles or tube looking things poking off their back/ thorax. Unfortunately it sounds like most of us who have aphids also have fungus gnats as pests will be drawn to weaker plants.

Also, someone mentioned this earlier but I can't remember who.... I agree that the waxy build-up on the roots that are left by the aphids does not help out root system. At the very least it seems to me that they cover the roots and starve them of oxygen, in addition to the fact that both bugs feed on the feeder roots of the plant. I am going to do more extensive experiements using different products to find what will both kill the bugs and remove the wax from our roots. Some have recommended hygrozyme which I have tried but it isn't removing the build-up so I will try different measures. I am still leaning toward the stonger H202 as a root drench but haven't had to money to pick any up lately but will keep everyone updated when I pick some up. Thanks to everyone for sharing info so we can try to stop these mofos!

 

[spleebale]

100 percent sure those are fungus gnats. Aphids have 2 small cornicles or tube looking things poking off their back/ thorax.

If you look at both photos, you will notice that each of the critters has two tubes coming out the ABDOMEN (note: the thorax is located between the abdomen and head].

If you will reference this photo below:

[Fungus Gnat]


You will notice that fungus gnats have a much more pronounced, differentiated thorax, as I was referencing - just like the bottom critter and unlike the top one. In every photo I have seen of fungus gnats, this is the case (this gives their body structure a much more slender, curvy shape like a mosquito). Check out the page here:

http://bugguide.net/node/view/7014 and tell me what you think.

The only thing that makes me hesitant to say that the bottom one is a fungus gnat is that no fungus gnats (that I can find) have the two ass-pipes as the bottom critter does, that appear to be cornicles. Otherwise it seems pretty clear to me that the top one is a root aphid and the bottom pretty likely a fungus gnat.

I would not go as far as to say I am "100% sure" because I am old enough to know that I have been wrong before and to see that the evidence is not so plain and clear that it is black and white.

However, the top one seems clearly to be a root aphid from everything I have experienced.

After having both flying creatures for months, catching them and looking at them under magnification and observing their behavior, it is clear to me when I see them in person which one is which.

Fungus gnats have far less body mass and weaker wings and can easily be captured/clapped in mid air or when they land. Root aphids have heavier bodies, stronger wings and are very difficult to clap/capture or even keep your eye on. They are even difficult to smack when they are on surfaces, unless it is the glass lens of a light - presumably they are blinded while staring into it. When you capture a just-emerged winged root aphid, it is much more obvious that it is an aphid - its body is more aphid-shape, it may still have color and its cornices are more pronounced. However, once they become fully matured winged aphids, their bodies become much more slender, their cornicles less pronounced and their heads look more like a fungus-gnat (or a wasp) head. I was confused at first - capturing what was obviously a root aphid by its behavior, only to find that it looked so slender and seemed to lack cornicles. Now (with peregrinus's high-res shot, and after evaluating all the evidence) I am no longer confused, as it is clear that the root aphid (top-photo critter in Peregrinus's post) becomes more like a fungus gnat (bottom critter in Peregrinus's post and above) for improved flight - though the differences between the two are still clear at such amazingly high-magnification. Thanks Peregrinus!

 

[smokesalot420]

You're right, I should have said 99 percent sure, I don't normally make all or none statements but we all make mistakes (I've probably made more than most people).

 

[jimbo99]

First of all i just want to say thanks for everyone on here sharing their info on these little bastards. I realized that i have these a few days ago. I thought they were mites at first. I dont have any experience dealing with pests other than fungus knats. On to the question and answer part:


1)Do you have root aphids? (if so please answer A-D) Yes, i think thats what they are
A)Do they look like any of the bugs pictured/linked in the first post? ("crabs" "tank beetles" "micros" or "psulloxera"? - use at least 10X magnification to see. If not, describe. Post a pic if possible! They look like the micros. Ive looked at them under a 30x scope. They are whit/translucent, have 6 legs and antenae.
B)Do you have/have you had fliers (winged version)? - Do they look like the two pictured at the top of the first post, or like the "Tank Beetle" fliers pictured here: http://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/50...4mass0bugs.jpg (note the two winged creatures in the pic: one looks just like the Tank Beetles but with wings [round, beetle-like aphid] and the other has a banded abdomen and looks like a bee. Call the "Tank Beetle" fliers "Tank Fliers" and the bee-like creatures "bee-bugs" - I am assuming the latter is not aphids, but let us know what you have either way)
No, no flying insects, just little white crawlers.
C)Have you noticed a waxy residue in the medium, on and around roots? nope
D)Have you tried any control methods/substances? What has and has not worked? No pest strips have no effect. Tried spraying an ortho spray containing prethrum and sulfur on top of the soil. Seemed to kill them on direct contact but did not get rid of them. I just spread de all over the tops of soil and rims of pots this morning. Couldnt find any crawlers this afternoon when i checked plants after application of de. I actually sprinkled some de directly on a crawler that was on the outside of a pot while i was applying it and watched under the 30x scope as it killed the bastard withing 2 minutes. However i'm not satisfied with the de alone because im sure there are still plenty of them underneath the soil unaffected by the de.

2)Do you have nutrient lockout/deficiency symptoms? (if so please answer A-B) yes
A)Do the symptoms seem to be connected to/tied to root aphid population? yes
B)Do they look like magnesium or potassium deficiency? (Intervenal chlorosis, little blotches of tan, necrotic tissue form in between veins and at leaf tips/margins, then spread and take over leaf edges and tips?) yes all of that however some plants are affected alot more than others. A few plants are still healthy and growing with only slight yellowing of lower leaves. Other plants are completley stunted, yellow, necrotic patches, are not drinking much water, are not growing much.

3)What is your grow setup like? (closet/room, high air exchange vs. closed w/ CO2) 4.5x6.5' tent with 2 600 hps. Plenty of air exchange
4)What medium/method do you do? (5-gal soil bags?/16 plants in NFT per 600W?/Bubble buckets w/ hydroton?) ffof soil with perlite
5)What nutrient line do you use? (recipe/ppms?) so far only fox farm grow big, 1 tsp/gal every other watering.
6)Do you foliar-spray your plants? What do you spray with? pH of spray? no


I'm at 6 weeks of veg from seed. All plants were a little stunted at first because im using really old seeds (3+years old). I first noticed the bugs about a week ago and put 3 hot shot no pest strips in the tent and turned off all ventilation for 6 hours every night to allow the fumes to have full effect. The strips did nothing. I checked 2 different home depots, lowes and kmart for the bayer stuff with imid and nobody has it around here (im in nyc). There were a few bayer products but nothing with imid. I'm going to buy the spectracide tomorow and water everything with the spectracide at 15ml/gal. The de i applied today seems to be working as i can not find any crawlers on rims of pots where i would normally find them however the de is just sitting on top of the soil and not killing anything underneath. Hopefully the spectracide will work. Wish me luck. I will report back with further developments. Thanks again for all the info.