feminized plant used for making seed

[englishrick]

it`s probbly not even a male,,,,,,it will be a monoecious specimine

 

[DocLeaf]

Lots of breeders make hybrids because they don't want others to have there breeding plant stock

Hi Dalaihempy We breed hybrids to attain "hybrid vigor",, so the progeny grow stronger with an abundance of flowers and a better resin / cannabinoid profile than either parents,, that's the basic aim at least

btw,, i dont mean to single you out from the crowd,,, i read this and thought i'd make comment, that's all. peace n flowers


btw... to reiterate YES it it possible to use feminized plants for making seeds! we did it twice,, once in 2005 and again in 2009. (still observing results) ,, saw one of our fem. x reg Painted Lady progeny today in another garden,, there was nothing wrong with it,, growing happily (better) than the other plants

p.s. many of the people making comments here (sorry to be blunt) are applying wisdom from a completely theoretical perspective,, never actually practising what the thread question asks. Kindda like plucking straws out ya ***

Hope this helps

 

[DocLeaf]

i agree rick, as ive changed my mind bout fem seeds. as long as proper stress test are done. i want to kno what yall think bout seeds made from a male the showed female flowers?

They aren't good (some joker somewhere said it was). It is the EASIEST way to explain away ANY hermaphroditic traits in a seed line.

IMO (and experience) using males that show female sepals,, is the same as selecting a female that shows the occasional male flower. ITS POOR PRACTISE! Mindful breeders only use plants like that if they contribute something really special to the offspring.. otherwise they are in the bin/compost.

We ditched x3 males (and the females) we were working with the other week for exactly this reason! Why breed with sub-standard stock? (btw male plants is what we are breeding for these days,, not the females,, cause everyone has a nice stable (tried n tested) clone to cross it with) = more reg. seeds.

Its still a process of learning these ends....

peace n flowers

 

[cannaboy]

Explain to me concisely how the Reg seeds have more potential.

There is a y so you can go either way,

 

[DocLeaf]

There is a y so you can go either way,

cannaboy is chatting about male plants here Silence... i.e. without a male how you gonna make more male seeds man??? :jont:

Feminized genetics are great in the short term.. but not something real plant line breeders are aiming for /working towards. (check out Shantibaba ,, he's most exemplary,, and easy to digest)

 

[stagger lee]

Darwin the thing is Im not taking it personal, at all. Hoosier has continued like almost 20 times sending neg rep my way, and just as many disrespectful, personal pm's or messages or whatever... if I took it personal I would be returning them. And he's got a way of turning shit around. GG's bible for instance that was only 1 book of several I quoted. And only did so cause he hounded me to back up what I was saying w/a book. Be right back....read hoosiers first post of this thread- accusing me of bring'n GG's book into debate AGAIN- not true, just start'n BS turning shit around-!

Its more of a misunderstanding than disagreeing anyway. When I say theres more herm probs w/feminized genetics than standard. What I mean is theres alot more greedy/inexperienced seedmakers offering halfassed feminized seeds than true good breeders offering them on the market. My bad for not mentioning or explaining myself and stereotyping "all" feminized seeds. There just seems to be more bad femseeds(from big companies Dutch Passion,greenhouse,ect..) than good worthy ones coming from breeders that know what theyre doing. Greg Greens bible was only mentioned because of the certain topic hoosier and me were argueing about at that moment. It was the 1st example I pulled and only because of his constant asking for a book backing up my point. Since It was his book that proved my point at the time, hoosiers just kept bringing it up saying he's an idiot.I dont agree w/everything in it but he's not an idiot that much I know. Fuck he wrote a whole book on this topic alone so its worth reading if not buying it. There are totally worthy feminized seeds out Ive got nothing against them you guys, I shouldnt stereo type "all" fem seeds cause its a kick in the nuts to the real breeders doing the homework to get it right, but until all the greedy seedmakers get run out of business and growers realize who's offering worthy fem genetics it prob wont ever go away. Theres no sides to this debate more than just misunderstanding on both parts. PEACE?

 

[Dalaihempy]

Hempy, you are so fucking clueless it isn't even a funny issue anymore. I am certain you are at a serious mental disadvantage, so I will just leave it at that.

Angel4us, these people are doing their best to keep our community ignorant as hell. It sickens me for so many of our community to spend so much time learning the secrets of our favorite sport, only to encounter these insolent bastards that have no respect for the plant or their fellow man. Oh sure, they will take offense to that right away and show you all the great buds they have grown...means less than shit. Anyone can grow fantastic buds, even clueless assholes.
These idiots keep the same lame arguments going without any backup to speak of at all. What they do bring, they don't even have the mental capacity to even comprehend.
Not to mention they have no idea of how to conduct themselves.
Oh yeah, they will all point at me and what I have to say as a show of how not to act..but if you read closely with all my stuff you will find that it just isn't true. I never attack people like these lousy fucks do. I only respond to the stupid shit that they throw out.

Many of them are kids that only need you to challenge them, and they feel you are the enemy and should be destroyed. They have few fucking clues as well, but I credit much of that to them just being young and stupid.

I knew as soon as I saw your title that controversy would ensue, and I knew it would be the same ignorant fucks that would muck up the place, as they always seem to want.
See, if the issue is all off track and into the nasty, then the real issue gets ignored. And like they do just about every thread they get into, it will be edited to a point that you won't really know why the whole thing got shut down.
And then folks like Hempy will sloth their way back into one of these same type threads down the road, and start talking about how nasty folks like me are. But of course a larger percentage of the nasty shit they threw around will be gone from the previous editing.
It's one of the reasons I advocate NO editing of any sort at any time. It keep fucks like Hempy from throwing more of his lies around, since we can actually go back and see his venomous ignorance.

The bottom line is that folks like Hempy and staggarlee have no fucking idea what the whole thing is really all about, and neither of them should be listened to on this topic, or any topic that is even in the vicinity of it.
I can't say they are clueless on other areas of our sport, but hey...even a blind hog will find a root now and again. As far as I have seen, both of them..including Hempy, know squat about anything of substance. I sure wouldn't follow any of Hempy's growing suggestions as he is all fucked up there as well. Just read his stuff. But like I said, a blind hog...

Unleashing? You fucking bet I am!
I am tired of the put downs and insults from the likes of these toss monkeys. Clueless fucking toss monkeys.

You know i did not even bother to read it all the first few sentences were all i could force my self to read your like the fem seeds you support hoosierdaddy you missing some impotent things but not genetically more mentally.


Your such a sad a nasty human being you make me feel a little sympathetic towards you in fact even if your nasty you do need lots and lots of therapy even then i think you will still need to be medicated.

You claim fem seeds to be a useful tool well is it i say no the fact in a small number of f2s seeds exprest as much of the mum in a small population than the s1 did i found massive loss in vigor s1 and that is only in the first generation.

What are you going to tell me that a method of reproduction used in nature in a given species is wrong and your chemical method is better and is the way forwed for the future of this plant its like putting a 5 year old in control of a car at high speed if you ask me.

You can talk all you like but from were i sit this tool is only useful for people that are fucken lazy that don't want to put the effort into real breeding that don't want to select males and do it as it was meant to be done.

The cannabis community has come such a long way yet look at the positives people like you have given us the pure old lines are no were to be seen we have people with a few years of growing making and selling seed that don't even select or test there seed yet claim to be experts we have the same strains being called many names and much more yes were have so much to be grateful for.

You are as much an expert in this topic as i am a astronaut my friend not one of you have made or tested and run these seeds generations you bring no research on this topic from cannabis research real scientific research as no one apart from growers have used it this has been around for how long yea not that long the GA was used as was asprin only a short time ago this is bull shit because every one is willing to sit back and listen to even your points and opinions yet any one stupid inuf to say sorry that's wrong you feel its your birth right to attack them well i have news for you hoosierdaddy and any that support your mental instability you don't.

 

[bromhexine]

has anyone touched upon the fact that different feminized seeds are made with different methods some causing more hermies in the future than others? theres overflowering, that silver stuff, theres gibberellic acid.. um lots of others too so really its a much broader question depending on how the fems came about. although i think its pretty widespread knowledge that a feminized seed will have less vigor so for that reason probably good idea to stay away from breeding with it.

 

[Silence]

There is a y so you can go either way,

And ? you grow for males do you?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

has anyone touched upon the fact that different feminized seeds are made with different methods some causing more hermies in the future than others? theres overflowering, that silver stuff, theres gibberellic acid.. um lots of others too so really its a much broader question depending on how the fems came about. although i think its pretty widespread knowledge that a feminized seed will have less vigor so for that reason probably good idea to stay away from breeding with it.

I am not aware of this. Do you have something that you could point to that would back up this widespread knowledge? Or perhaps you could expand on why what you claim is so?

Now see, Hempy will accuse me of being a nasty individual with poor people skills who doesn't know how to conduct themselves on a message board by asking you those questions. And I will be an even bigger asshole if you don't respond with anything of substance and I again challenge your statements.
...in any event, I am not being nasty or mean, I am simply challenging you on a statement you made. A pretty important statement to make if you were to bring anything to back it up with.

 

[Silence]

cannaboy is chatting about male plants here Silence... i.e. without a male how you gonna make more male seeds man??? :jont:

Feminized genetics are great in the short term.. but not something real plant line breeders are aiming for /working towards. (check out Shantibaba ,, he's most exemplary,, and easy to digest)

Erm how you gonna make more male seeds without a male lol.... we are talking fem seeds here yes? how do you think ?? we don't need or want it for this purpose.... lmao not something real breeders are working towards ???? commercial crops ie wheat, maize, rice etc are and have been for some time...

You want to talk about shanti lol, he used to just BC everything in his programs, he his welcome to come and discuss this! no ones stopping him... what he does now I don't know but he could come and inform us.

Explain how they are just for the short term ?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Don't even go there, stagger lee. You pop off in some thread throwing rocks at me, and you can expect to see a little red dot of disapproval. I tell you what...throw all the red dots at me you want, even if not warranted. I give half a shit about red dots, jr.
And your explanation of how things went down sucks. You have selective memory.
And your take was not concerning the bad practices of seed breeders, but the process itself. Perhaps you could explain to us what the shoddy fem seed breeders are doing that is shoddy work? Then explain to us how the reputable breeders are making fem seeds?
Can you?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

You can talk all you like but from were i sit this tool is only useful for people that are fucken lazy that don't want to put the effort into real breeding that don't want to select males and do it as it was meant to be done.

I don't need to select males to make fantastic seeds that produce fantastic plants. And YOU are the biggest tool in this discussion. Trust that.

BTW, when did mother nature tell you how it was meant to be done?

 

[darwinsbulldog]

You can talk all you like but from were i sit this tool is only useful for people that are fucken lazy that don't want to put the effort into real breeding that don't want to select males and do it as it was meant to be done.

i would've thought using females only for breeding is a more advanced practice. for one it's harder than just using F/M matings IMO and also you can look directly at the phenotypes of each plant and thus selection is made easier instead of having to look at males trying to select the best ones that will give you the best females, this is a solid technique but because you're choosing traits the male shows that indirectly correlate to different traits in any subsequent female offspring, it's less accurate than looking directly at the phenos of the two females you're going to cross.... i'd say both systems are fine, but using females only, and doing it right, is going to save you a lot of time as a breeder in the long run.

 

[Silence]

i would've thought using females only for breeding is a more advanced practice. for one it's harder than just using F/M matings IMO and also you can look directly at the phenotypes of each plant and thus selection is made easier instead of having to look at males trying to select the best ones that will give you the best females, this is a solid technique but because you're choosing traits the male shows that indirectly correlate to different traits in any subsequent female offspring, it's less accurate than looking directly at the phenos of the two females you're going to cross.... i'd say both systems are fine, but using females only, and doing it right, is going to save you a lot of time as a breeder in the long run.

See thats just it for me with these use male theories, how many are reversing the male etc etc, how many select thru many say 50 to 100 males? how many do alot of progeny testing? or how many just piss in the wind and hope for the best? I reckon more go for the latter.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

See thats just it for me with these use male theories, how many are reversing the male etc etc, how many select thru many say 50 to 100 males? how many do alot of progeny testing? or how many just piss in the wind and hope for the best? I reckon more go for the latter.

yea that's it, and if you're going to the trouble of reversing males to see the female side of them... you are putting in as much effort as it would take to reverse females to use for cross pollination and fem seed production, so it's one in the same time/effort wise, but you'll get 100% of your progeny being female, of which you won't have to force to see the pheno you're selecting for, only so that you can cross pollinate if you so choose on the select few you like. again i have no issue with using males and will be doing so in my first breeding projects as there's nothing wrong with it, but if you want to select from fewer numbers so that you're not raising 100 males and 100 females, you can do twice the power of selection with 100 females if you're going to be able to use them to produce pollen as well... seems only sensible to me?? spend the time and money you save on going to the bahamas and screwing some hot tanned girl on the beach...? lol

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Selfing and feminizing are just tools in the breeders toolbox.
Their worth is well understood and documented. No need for arguing with naysayers, other than it isn't fair to new and impressionable growers to have to sort through the endless chant of bullshit that comes from these puffy muffin knownuthin's. SO as long as they continue to bring unfounded hogshit to the table, it will be met with challenges.

I challenge anyone to provide evidence of there being a genetic difference in a female plant that was produced from a fem forcing incross, and it's sibling sister produced by a M/F incross. Provide evidence that the two are distinguishable in the lab.
See, if you could find a difference it would be the key to showing how a forcing is inferior, and how it's progeny are not up to par with regular bred plants.

 

[Silence]

Selfing and feminizing are just tools in the breeders toolbox.
Their worth is well understood and documented. No need for arguing with naysayers, other than it isn't fair to new and impressionable growers to have to sort through the endless chant of bullshit that comes from these puffy muffin knownuthin's. SO as long as they continue to bring unfounded hogshit to the table, it will be met with challenges.

I challenge anyone to provide evidence of there being a genetic difference in a female plant that was produced from a fem forcing incross, and it's sibling sister produced by a M/F incross. Provide evidence that the two are distinguishable in the lab.
See, if you could find a difference it would be the key to showing how a forcing is inferior, and how it's progeny are not up to par with regular bred plants.

I would say this, that there is evidence out there that states when a selfed line can reach a problem ie say at S3 its very weak as its extremely inbred a single bout of M/F mating can increase vigor and improve fitness.. though this has also been seen to work the other way. I will try to find the doc for you, but may take some days...

 

[cannaboy]

And ? you grow for males do you?

If you want to learn how to breed then yes,, I can show you.. The females are half the deal. We all have been throwing males out too much as a community.. The female x female is still half of what you need,, you can self all the females in the world to get your pollen but to get the 1 you need you must grow them all.. With males you can do what every1 feminized is doing Just BETTER. You can hit like 22 males on a bitch easy no stress and get some seeds, but the males give 1 or 2 or howevermany slightly vairiable differences with no loss of genome regarding visable True traits as no reshuffel is going on just paring.. This is why saving seeds from particular seeds is the most important part of breeding. knowing what is what from what from where. propper f2's do not need anymore work.. that is why SHANTIBABA makes pure f1's because you lot all buy his shit 1 way or another,,

 

[Dalaihempy]

There has been no real research done on this by any one out side of dutch passion i challenge any of you to produce any real scientific research on this topic as i know this to be fact you lot are basing your argument on i think and i believe it just dose not cut it.

Like a 5 year old kid given the wheel of a car traveling at high speed that is what will happen if people like you are to direct the future of this species god help us.



BTW, when did mother nature tell you how it was meant to be done? lol mother nature would not add a male in a given species to just look prity wise up.