favorite female seeds

[Baba Ku]

As for inferences, I'm sure we can agree that fems are less stable than m/f seed, and, should they be used in breeding projects, threaten to pass a greater degree of instability on to successive generations.

I will just address this part, as most everything else you are bringing to the table hinges on it.

No, I do not agree in any shape or fashion. Just what do you have that would point to there being any evidence of feminized seeds being less stable that those of a M/F breeding?
Any sort of anecdotal report of a single grow is not going to cut it, no matter how many logical conclusions you make.
Many make these same claims, none have backed them up.


A true selfing is only detrimental due to the fact that it is a bottleneck of genetic material available during meiosis. Nothing about the procedure produces less stable genetics.

I would also be curious of what vendors you think are providing feminized seeds that were brought about from less than desirable breeding practices. You mentioned about "what you are seeing"...well, just what are you seeing? Do you have some sort of insight into these vendors breeding programs and how they do things? Really, just what are you seeing?
Surely you aren't seeing massive reports of hermie grows and bad fem seeds are you? I sure don't see that in any fem seed thread. What I do see is folks listing a multitude of fem seed offerings that they have grown and had great success with. I also see the never fail arrival of the person who throws all the charges at fem seeds, yet never backs up their rants.
It often ends up bad because some just can't come to the reality that they are doing nothing but passing on bad juju for no good reason, and claims that are simply unfounded.

 

[simos]

No, I do not agree in any shape or fashion. Just what do you have that would point to there being any evidence of feminized seeds being less stable that those of a M/F breeding?
Any sort of anecdotal report of a single grow is not going to cut it, no matter how many logical conclusions you make.
Many make these same claims, none have backed them up.

Unfortunately, all I have to offer on the subject is my own experience. I've heard many others relay similar anecdotal evidence, but you're right, that doesn't make it fact.

A true selfing is only detrimental due to the fact that it is a bottleneck of genetic material available during meiosis. Nothing about the procedure produces less stable genetics.

If by true you mean a selfing where a non-abused female is used as the seed bearing parent, then I have to agree.
The genetic bottleneck you describe does, however, support my criticisms of less genetic diversity from fems. Over the long run, less diversity often equates to less stability...

You mentioned about "what you are seeing"...well, just what are you seeing? Do you have some sort of insight into these vendors breeding programs and how they do things? Really, just what are you seeing?

I'm seeing more fem seeds being offered than standard m/f seeds. I have absolutely no inside information about how seedbanks go about producing their fems, the trend just concerns me.

It often ends up bad because some just can't come to the reality that they are doing nothing but passing on bad juju for no good reason, and claims that are simply unfounded.

Don't worry, I readily acknowledge when I have no rebuttal to sound arguments, and my ego isn't that tied up in being right all the time.

For the time being, I think you've compellingly demonstrated that many fem seeds will be equally stable (in terms of hermaphroditism) as regular seeds.

I would be inclined to argue that they won't be as true breeding. Moreover, if reversals are used on successive generations as a means of developing lines I suspect we will see a dramatic increase in instability around the S3/4 generation as a result of the accelerated genetic bottleneck (compared to normal inbreeding). Perhaps that's my greatest concern with the prevalence of the practice in the long run.

Thoughts?

 

[SOTW GTR 3]

good debate.

 

[simos]

have you ever grown out female seeds??? sounds like you are sold on your own juice

Try reading the posts on this page... But if that's too much to ask, the answer is yes, though not extensively by any measure

It was a strong opinion bashed out in a hurry. I'm prone to that (coming across a bit strong) at times... lol

 

[DocLeaf]

Royal Queen Seeds and Green House Seeds

 

[bigAl25]

Here are my favorite so far, Nirvana bubblelicious and AK48. Next round will be using Blue Mystic and snow white. I'll tell you how they do later. Only one grow room so fem seeds are the best deal for me.

 

[SMC]

Bah, tired of growing both types of seeds and so far the best have all been feminized seeds.
Add to that the fact that my last purchase was SOL's Blublonic and out of 10 seeds only 1 was female and it pretty much sums it up.
I will only buy normal seeds if the strain doesn't have a feminized version.

 

[VapingBuddha]

This may be of interest, I recalled Sam_Skunkman saying it a while back:
(in thread https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=98932)

This is a reference to selfing, but I've heard Sam refer to F2s as selfing as well, and he considers S1s to be equivalent to F2s. So this is essentially a comment about female only breeding.

Selfing has many problems, number one is that selfed plants may or may not be the same as the original parent, the genes have been changed by selfing, that is why most people self. If the selfed plant is 50% more homogeneous then the parent, that shows the gene change pretty clearly. Also selfing has many problems, you try selfing a plant for six generations and you will find they are inbreed vigorless, or even sterile, the pollen is unable to make seeds, or even be released from the male flowers (functionally sterile). If you want to really try this you need to make parallel lines and then combine them after the work to restore vigor. I have done it and it is not for amateurs, it is long hard work with few rewards without a detailed breeding goal. The S2-S6 populations are fraught with problems, hard to grow and after the S3 often unable to produce fertile pollen.

 

[SOTW GTR 3]

i fixed the comment. sorry simos, i too jumped the gun with my post.

 

[JNewton]

mixed feelings on fem seeds to the point of I wouldn't buy them
but the free dina fem seeds from the bou. might change my mind
so far so good we'll see in 5-7weeks

 

[imadoofus]

im growing dna roadrunner freebie. wasnt even too concerned about bothering- a freebie? free fo'a reason, sucka!

its about 60 days in now... 12 left id say. auto-flowering feminized seed.
i dunno about you, that spells a good time to me. havent paid it any attention, stuck
it into the closet with a light, goodnite and good luck. yesterday i even changed out the nute res, been giving mostly straight add back with a splash of r/o. its been on the when-i-can-remember- light cycle most of it life.

so far, no bananas (r.i.p. spurr) and amazing buds. took a sampler last night, was impressed. heady high, be some gear soon.

 

[Hammerhead]

I will buy them from breeders I like. Some of these limited releases that are S1 are just gems.

 

[JWP]

I will just address this part, as most everything else you are bringing to the table hinges on it.

No, I do not agree in any shape or fashion. Just what do you have that would point to there being any evidence of feminized seeds being less stable that those of a M/F breeding?
Any sort of anecdotal report of a single grow is not going to cut it, no matter how many logical conclusions you make.
Many make these same claims, none have backed them up.


A true selfing is only detrimental due to the fact that it is a bottleneck of genetic material available during meiosis. Nothing about the procedure produces less stable genetics.

I would also be curious of what vendors you think are providing feminized seeds that were brought about from less than desirable breeding practices. You mentioned about "what you are seeing"...well, just what are you seeing? Do you have some sort of insight into these vendors breeding programs and how they do things? Really, just what are you seeing?
Surely you aren't seeing massive reports of hermie grows and bad fem seeds are you? I sure don't see that in any fem seed thread. What I do see is folks listing a multitude of fem seed offerings that they have grown and had great success with. I also see the never fail arrival of the person who throws all the charges at fem seeds, yet never backs up their rants.
It often ends up bad because some just can't come to the reality that they are doing nothing but passing on bad juju for no good reason, and claims that are simply unfounded.

Evidence is all over this site and all over the web.

Genes arent like a light swith. You cant just turn them off once they are turned on. Once the plants intersex genes are activated thats it. Then by breeding you increase the freequency of these genes in all generations after..

One respected breader here took a line all the way to IBL and still could not get get rid of them. Many many many reports of nannas. He wasnt even making female seeds! Just started with a less than perfect plant..

And when a person selects for fem seeds, he is selecting two proven females. He sees what their buds look like and the growing structure they take on before he uses them.
The person who uses the male has no clue, not really. Especially if he is using plants grown from an F1 breeding. He can select all day long, and not really know what sort of progeny that male may put out. He only selected it because he felt it smelled funky, or looked big, or some other trait...but he really doesn't know squat about it.

Forcing for fems to throw pollen is absolutely a tool for breeding. And it is used all the time, even by some of the names you mentioned.
Some breeders won't put out fem lines because folks like you exist on a high level still. There are lots that take the voodoo and hearsay and make them facts in their minds. Some go as far as to lobby against fem seeds simply because of their confused take on things.
At the end of the day, the facts are the deciding factor, and you are not bringing many facts to the table with your rant.

lol...I would love to hear your detailed take on how fem seeds pollutes the gene pool.

Nonsense. Female seeds are by far inferior.

"He is selecting two proven females"

No he is selecting from most likely 2 intersex plants. 1 we can prove because it has reversed and the 2nd is more than likely intersexed also.

Who would want to risk having the progeny of these intersexed plants in their garden. Who else would want to breed with these?

Whats the goal? A homozygous line of intersexed nanna throwing garden wreckers?

These plants are most definitely genetic pollution!

I have seen more than one breeder talk about doing female lines ONLY because they want to competitive thanks to gardeners who are lazy or just dont know any better. Female seeds are about making $$$ and nothing else. To say this is a tool for breeding is absolutely wrong.

No one sat there baked thinking hmmm this is a great for breeding better plants. They absolutely did think hmmm now i only have to sell half amount of female seeds for the same price. I just doubled my proffits woohoo

Then when they dominated the market and other breeders with regular lines wernt selling any they were forced to make female lines also. I guarantee the vast majority of breeders would not even bother with female seeds if they wernt forced to just to stay competitive.

I for one will never buy a female seed. Even if i got them as a freeby i would destroy them rather than passing on the gentic pollution to someone else.

 

[Hammerhead]

CBG Purple Peyote is a limited release of a special Bubba. They made S1 of this lady. I popped 1 seed just to see what she could do and she was off the hook. I have pics in my Indica thread. These can only be purchased from CBG website Gypsy does not carry limited release lots. The price is exceptional for what you get.

 

[Baba Ku]

Evidence is all over this site and all over the web.

No, really it's not. Nothing you can find will validate anyone's claims that feminized seeds have inferior genes. Although you will find loads of speculative drivel.

Genes arent like a light swith. You cant just turn them off once they are turned on. Once the plants intersex genes are activated thats it. Then by breeding you increase the freequency of these genes in all generations after..

Friend, I will try to be as nice as I can because I have no want or need to fight and argue, but you are going to have to grasp the intersex gene better before you can entertain any intelligent discussion.
See, it exists in most all cannabis plants at some level. Some express it in dominant fashion and others in recessive. You aren't going to make it be any more or any less dominant...period.
If a plant shows it, it's because it had it to show and at the level for it to show...with the stress you gave it, whatever that may had been. The ones that hold the intersex gene in recessive fashion, while also expressing other desired traits, would be the plants that would be superior to others for breeding purposes.
These plants have to be searched out. And you don't make them anything at all...you don't switch shit on, all you do is trigger the intersex gene. Which was there to begin with and you did not cause it to fester in any way shape of form. Which is basically what your words seem to imply..hence my suggestion for some study.

One respected breader here took a line all the way to IBL and still could not get get rid of them. Many many many reports of nannas. He wasnt even making female seeds! Just started with a less than perfect plant..

See, another thing you and many other seem to miss is that it matters not if it is M/F breeding or forcing for fems...it is the very same concept in genetics.
And you don't have to start with a less than perfect plant either, as some lines carry the gene in dominance to a point that it is nearly impossible to breed it out. Thais in particular.
In any event, this has nothing to do with showing that fem seeds are inferior.

Nonsense. Female seeds are by far inferior.

Well, bring something besides speculation and your own home brewed grasp of the whole thing and show us. Prove it. Should be easy with it all over the internet, aye?

The rest of your post was really to silly to even address.

Don't get mad when you get challenged on this like other do, find some cold hard facts to come back with. If you approach this with an even keel, you may learn a thing or two that can help your understanding of cannabis breeding as a whole.

 

[JWP]

I will be nice also. We could talk about this for years. In fact we have.

So why dont we just start a pole and see if breeders would run fem lines if they didnt need to be competitive...

Female seeds are about $$$ and that is it.

Using an intersex plant to breed with does nothing but increase the frequency of intersex plants in the progeny.

Recessive or not having more hermies just waiting for the chance to express themselves is not good breeding.

It is genetic pollution...

 

[CB99]

maybe i can add something positive to this thread, i have been crossing females for two years now.

i have found that that most female cannabis plants will express maleness given the appropriate conditions. this has made it very difficult for me to categorize a "hermi" or a "nonhermi"

when i have crossed two female plants, the progeny seem to only express maleness if the parents easily expressed maleness themselves,

i have come to the assumption that maleness is dependant on stress tolerances.

thankyou

CB

 

[JWP]

See what i mean...

At this rate all cannabis will be homozygous intersex dominant in no time flat.

Real breeders should start saving seeds now..

 

[Hammerhead]

most of us have seed stock that we will never get to at least not in my lifetime. I dont think the words REAL BREEDERS are appropriate. Charlie Garcia is a breeder of extraordinary abilities he does have Fem and S1 seed lines offered to us. Ime I have seen more female plants then Hermi or male plants from fem or S1 lines. Sure I get a hermie once in awhile but I get more all females from the same seeds.

 

[CB99]

i have put allot of time into to categorizing "hermi" and "nonhermi" plants, final categorization seems to be very difficult as all the plants i have tested seem to express maleness given the appropriate conditions.

how do "Real Breeders" categorize "hermi" and "nonhermi" plants?