Extinction by Hybridization: The Cannabis Biodiversity Crisis

[ngakpa]

These are primarily the result of the industrial revolution finally reaching every nook and cranny on earth, the result being that the cultures that have traditionally produced these strains are disappearing.

the cascade of landrace extinctions we are seeing right now, because these extinctions are mainly the result of cultural die off.

thanks for the reply, but I guess you missed the response to this (along with the rest of the thread?):

cultures and peoples that traditionally grow ganja and charas in Asia are in no way shape or form disappearing:

Afghans, Lao, Thai, Khmer, Paharis, Punjabis, Bengalis, Iranians, Lebanese etc.

 

[Sunshineinabag]

The Real Seed Company for example.
https://therealseedcompany.com/

india bush is OH FA!

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

thanks for the reply, but I guess you missed the response to this (along with the rest of the thread?):

cultures and peoples that traditionally grow ganja and charas in Asia are in no way shape or form disappearing:

Afghans, Lao, Thai, Khmer, Paharis, Punjabis, Bengalis, Iranians, Lebanese etc.

You are welcome thank you, I also wanted to say that statement about hybrids was also not directed at you. It's a great thread, only made it a few pages into the thread before I saw whatever it was that I reacted to. Will finish it soon, I promise, great thread so far.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Pretty much, obvious really not just in cannabis but in biodiversity everywhere, t.he cultures in name (some of them anyway) might not be dimished but their cultural practices certainly are. Put simply, no one wants to stay in the village.

That's right, and add the war on drugs. There is still a lot of good landrace weed in east Africa, but things change quickly.

 

[smogo]

I know this sounds crazy, but I sometimes believe (usually when I'm super stoned) that there is a mass global effort to eradicate landrace sativas. I believe this is because of their unique effects which is deep, expansive and encourages free thinking - it is essentially the ultimate "drug" that can make one truly happy with oneself and at peace with the everyone. It can make you happy with very little.

The issue here is I believe for novice users, this sativa high is usually quite terrifying and too intense, hence why it got demonised by the US in early 19th century and didn't catch on in popularity. It's not marketable. But this new indica heavy weed is easy for first time users hence the start of mass legalisation now. They've finally made weed less psychedelic and more narcotic/medicinal and they are going to try and spread this across the world.
I also think there is a generational shift too. Certainly in my generation: the social media, instant gratification culture, it's all about looks and first impressions - and the weed also reflects that. All people care about nowadays are the immediate bag appeal, smell, shiny pretty crystals, and the 3-4 toke heavy downers that numb you, make you think less. Also combine this with the fact that they are of course much easier to grow with shorter flowering times has inevitably lead to the situation we are in.
The hybridisation has happened in South America, Africa, and now SE Asia with Thailands' legalisation. I recently saw a YouTube video of a weed festival? and it's all strains like Strawberry Glue and OG Bubba Haze Kush - all that crap. It almost seems deliberate to me in some ways.
Ime, when I was regularly smoking the landrace sativas, it honestly cured my depression, and even my anxiety in a long-term sense (made me anxious as fuck when I overdid it mind you haha) but this current heavy indica dank (even the sativa dom ones, which often just leave me feeling confused) really makes my depression and anxiety worse.

But hey, I'm high as a kit right now and I should probably go to bed...

 

[smogo]

To expand on the Thailand point - heres' a link to the sort of thing I was talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5i67rq9Ehg
Don't get me wrong, it looks like everyone is having a good time with nice vibes, but the landrace sativas will surely be driven to the point of near extinction - and in popularity too. These new flashy, fruity hybridised strains will become the norm for the upcoming legal generation there that landrace sativa will be alien; it will be shunned and looked down upon if not already. Perhaps there will be stories and tales told in the future about the old ganja in the past that used to make you grow crazy.

Remember when weed was commonly referred to as "wacky backy?"

 

[troutman]

I've been reading lots of breeding and genetics book for a while now and I think nobody has yet to stabilize a new Cannabis strain
in the last 50 years despite so many hybrids being created in that time. Like how many strains created after 1970 are still the same
and/or still around? Most fall apart after 15 years of creation at most I suspect.

For example: Even the original Cannabis Cups winners of the late 80's or 90's aren't the same and/or around anymore. I'm not saying
good plants can't be found today in modern strains. I'm just saying losing Landraces hurts us all and it's one huge reason why it sucks
when idiots contaminate Landrace areas with modern strains.

Landraces were created by open pollination on a population basis and it's why they are resilient in their environment of creation.
Most modern hybrids are created with very few parents and in many cases only 2 plants in an unnatural environment like indoors.

Breeding using Landraces is fun because of the vigor you get.

Just don't contaminate Landrace areas with hybrids thats all.

 

[paradoxlost]

I don't think this applies to cannabis. Yes, in people's basements all these different hybrids are being created. But they're not taking those genetics back to where those land races originated from, leaving isolated populations that can continue to pollenate each other year after year and be controlled by natural selection. In fact, I got access to that paper and in the whole paper the authors don't mention a single plant species, only animal species.

With that being said I want to get like a half acre area and just take a shit ton of seeds that are super fucking dank and just through them out at 10 lb/ac and collect seeds after 20 years and start from that population.

 

[Klompen]

Starting a DNA database of various strains would be a lot more useful than anything at this point IMO. We're probably going to have better results resurrecting strains than preserving them. We'll see...

 

[mexcurandero420]

Remaining landraces should be done in the region of origin, otherwise when done in the west in a greenhouse it would change overtime.

Bringing genetics from the west to certain Asian areas would wipe out special terpene profiles, which can be found in certain drugtype Cannabis around there.Western genetics was mainly bred for potency, but not for a special terpene profile.

Another issue is that most western genetics are bred indoors and when shipped to countries where you have a humid climate, mold will become an issue, where the landraces are fully adapted to the growing environment, western genetics will rot in the field.

 

[Stocktont]

To expand on the Thailand point - heres' a link to the sort of thing I was talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5i67rq9Ehg
Don't get me wrong, it looks like everyone is having a good time with nice vibes, but the landrace sativas will surely be driven to the point of near extinction - and in popularity too. These new flashy, fruity hybridised strains will become the norm for the upcoming legal generation there that landrace sativa will be alien; it will be shunned and looked down upon if not already. Perhaps there will be stories and tales told in the future about the old ganja in the past that used to make you grow crazy.

Remember when weed was commonly referred to as "wacky backy?"

I don't know if I am misreading your posts above but I don't really see any evidence that there were seeds or weed sold from those western type of genetics you named. What I saw (in the video you posted) was paraphernalia like rolling papers, glass and bamboo bongs being sold. I would doubt that they sold any type of weed openly over counters as the law still is pretty harsh for selling cannabis illegally as they would have done if they sold it in any form. The medical laws that were introduced are not allowing for any type of cannabis to be sold recreationally and they're not allowed to even “give” weed to the proper medical patients, only oil treatments are administered at this point.

Paraphernalia are traditionally sold in many places where you can buy pipes and grinders in most tourist areas and papers can be found in many Family Mart's and 7-eleven stores around the country. The actual cannabis products are only sold illegally and for westerners it's usually easy to find in tourist destinations where they have jamaican music establishments and usually where you see the reggae colors (red, green and yellow) being sported by locals on beaches etc.

Mind you it's still very illegal to sell, buy and use cannabis in the way I saw one or two people smoking joints in that video. It could still make for some rather nasty encounters with the men in uniform. Even if you go to one of the places that will sell it to any westerner (for an inflated price) as the only thing keeping the uniforms from not busting you right there and then would be the money being paid for them to look the other way. Be sure to not that they know what is happening in those jamaican establishments and they could very well be waiting down the road as it were for you to stumble home. It's not uncommon even if you are not carrying any product with you for them to simply put a cup in front of you. When they do it means pay up or go straight to jail. Especially if you're a westerner and you're in a tourist destination.

Cannabis is not looked upon as the same devastating drug as some other chemical ones that are reeking havoc amongst the local populations such as meth but also be advised that if they (men in uniforms) can use any rule or law as leverage to negotiate your money from you they will. The only difference as I see it between cannabis and other drugs such as meth or coke is that the prices is far lower though if they think they can get you for a big amount, again they will go for it. If it's one of the other drugs you might not even be able to negotiate for your freedom at all.

I don't really know why they (the public servants of the country) are kind of flagging some sort of future maybe allowing even for recreational cannabis laws but I think they are doing it much more for show and for opinion than for their leniency towards cannabis users. Also, as I have pointed out earlier in this thread, the propositions of such things are not coming from the majority holder of their parliament but from a smaller party and it may or may not carry that much weight thought it might give a lot of hope. I sure hope I am wrong on this as no one would be happier if they would legalize cannabis in the way that some seem to think they are going to but at the same time I don't want any future visitors falling victims under the current laws thinking it's safe and accepted or even half-way legal.

It would be really bad though if it was legalized and the same seeds companies that are allowed or tolerated to sell their seeds at western cannabis events would come here and sell their products to everyone who forks up the cash for them. I would assume that the majority of growers are outdoor growers and it would have much more impact on the local varieties here than in western countries where it is at least much more of an indoor growing community and there are no landrace varieties to pollute.

So beware if you plan to consume cannabis in any other way than through a legal medical program as you might have a very nasty surprise taking most of your holiday money from you if you are not careful.

 

[Stocktont]

I've been reading lots of breeding and genetics book for a while now and I think nobody has yet to stabilize a new Cannabis strain
in the last 50 years despite so many hybrids being created in that time. Like how many strains created after 1970 are still the same
and/or still around? Most fall apart after 15 years of creation at most I suspect.

For example: Even the original Cannabis Cups winners of the late 80's or 90's aren't the same and/or around anymore. I'm not saying
good plants can't be found today in modern strains. I'm just saying losing Landraces hurts us all and it's one huge reason why it sucks
when idiots contaminate Landrace areas with modern strains.

Landraces were created by open pollination on a population basis and it's why they are resilient in their environment of creation.
Most modern hybrids are created with very few parents and in many cases only 2 plants in an unnatural environment like indoors.

Breeding using Landraces is fun because of the vigor you get.

Just don't contaminate Landrace areas with hybrids thats all.

Maybe the loss of some of the old (80s and 90s) western seed varieties are due to most of those varieties have been made and maintained (for the duration of their stay) mainly through 1:1 matings, a male and female clone (or at least a fairly small population of clones both male an female) that produced the sold seeds. If you lose even one of those two clones then you can't really replicate the seed variety but have to make a new version. Traditional cannabis growing regions – in my novice opinion – have maintained their varieties through seeds season by season which gives a slightly better chance of retaining it even if one crop is lost.

 

[troutman]

^^^ That too. Clones don't live forever.

 

[SUPER_HAZE]

One thing I don't think has been said here is that some locals prefer to plant western hybrids for speed and yield.

Also in many countries they have very harsh sentences, the less flowering lasts the better for them.

I don't defend them but I don't blame them either. It is the fault of the absurd laws that we have.

 

[ngakpa]

One thing I don't think has been said here is that some locals prefer to plant western hybrids for speed and yield.

the only regions where western hybrids are signifantly faster are the tropics

and hybrids definitely underperform there

they get savaged by disease

plus the only study so far on yield shows that Sativas yield higher
https://landrace.blog/2020/06/19/do-landrace-farmers-need-modern-hybrid-strains/

the problem with the landrace preservation discussion right now is that the default assumption of most people is that modern hybrids are the pinnacle of what can be achieved with Cannabis

that's very far from the truth

for example, the high-yield cultivars of the future will be columnar plants, a lot like the main phenotypes of most traditional Middle Eastern landraces

whatever short-term gains there may (appear to) be from switching to hybrids, long-term it's catastrophic for everyone, not just farmers

the main thing to keep sight of is that landraces are basis from which we can create a multitude of future advanced cultivars

whereas the current state of cultivars and cultivation practices in the West looks like a bad joke to any knowledgeable crop scientist --- huge amounts of wasted space between plants and caused by branching etc.

 

[paradoxlost]

My thing with "preserving the landrace strains" is that those strains still exist wherever the seeds came from. I mean unless they were destroyed, there is still wild Cannabis sativa all over the world. Shit there are wild hemp varieties in the Midwest along the train tracks. What I would like to see is someone take a handfull of these hybridized, indoor strains and through them outside and just let them open pollenate each other and start stabalizing.

 

[Stocktont]

the only regions where western hybrids are signifantly faster are the tropics

and hybrids definitely underperform there

they get savaged by disease

plus the only study so far on yield shows that Sativas yield higher
https://landrace.blog/2020/06/19/do-landrace-farmers-need-modern-hybrid-strains/

the problem with the landrace preservation discussion right now is that the default assumption of most people is that modern hybrids are the pinnacle of what can be achieved with Cannabis

that's very far from the truth

for example, the high-yield cultivars of the future will be columnar plants, a lot like the main phenotypes of most traditional Middle Eastern landraces

whatever short-term gains there may (appear to) be from switching to hybrids, long-term it's catastrophic for everyone, not just farmers

the main thing to keep sight of is that landraces are basis from which we can create a multitude of future advanced cultivars

whereas the current state of cultivars and cultivation practices in the West looks like a bad joke to any knowledgeable crop scientist --- huge amounts of wasted space between plants and caused by branching etc.

Good points @ngakpa I would like to add a few things to people who have never been the tropical parts of south east asia and may think that it's a perfect climate to grow all kinds of cannabis plants. It's not optimal for all types in fact there's reasons why the south east asian types have the characteristics they have.

The reason western hybrids would be significantly faster is not only due to them having a shorter flowering cycle but also that they would respond to the photoperiod much quicker than south east asians normally do. Depending of where you are (of course) the days are very short even now in summer there's not much more than 13 hours of light each day. The result of growing western hybrids here would be that they started to flower very quickly and wouldn't grow much before so the plants may not be very big if you don't use indoor until a certain age or supplementary lighting to keep them in a vegetative state for a longer period of time.

There's also a reason the south east asians look the way they do. Thin leafs, tall and lanky keeping the flowers and leafs apart also helps with airflow as would airy and fluffy buds. This is key as most things will mold pretty quick in tropical climates. Most of the western indoor hybrids wouldn't do very well in flower here as they are too compact. They have too many leafs and flowers too close and the flowers are also too dense for proper airflow which would probably mean you'd lose the plant to mold and/or something other than mold starting to grow and take over the plant rendering it unsuitable for consumption. It's even a problem with brick weed when you get it and it's fresh and you leave it the room or in a plastic bag too long without taking it out and airing it, you'll see that nasty mold take a hold of it quick, hours not days. I would see the same problem with indoor type of buds in this climate.

The problem is that not all hybrids are short, stocky afghani or hash plant types and I am sure there's a whole range of more NLD type of hybrids that would do better in this climate. Those would be the bigger threats for the local genetic pool as they could probably survive in this climate well enough to do some damage. Things like Haze or some Thai/Vietnamese/Laotian/Burmese that has already been hybridized once and display a NLD dominance.

 

[funkyhorse]

In the youtube video of Buriram festival you can see there is advertisment for Dutch Passion strains Blueberry OG and Desfran. It only makes sense western hybrids are offered together with western growing indoor tech
Asians think new is better than old or traditional. So if you can afford to pay the electricity bill, new indoor tech with indoor varieties would be consider better than old or traditional

When Stalktont talks about meth I believe he is referring to ya ba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ya_ba

When you are talking about hybrids being significantly faster than landraces, this means hybrids will be faster on your indoor tent, they will be faster at the tropics and western hybrids will be faster than a traditional sativa landrace at latitude 50 as well
Look at Colombia. Farmers dont seem to care much if hybrids underperform

This advertised strain in Buriram festival, Desfran. It was my first grow. I grew 2 plants indoor, one was ready at 65 days and the other was ready after 42 days.

The only areas in the world where western hybrids failed and will continue to fail to adapt are extreme hard weather conditions such as Manchuria or Red Sea basin area. In more benign desertic weather areas like the Magreb, hybridization took place long time ago

 

[Stocktont]

In the youtube video of Buriram festival you can see there is advertisment for Dutch Passion strains Blueberry OG and Desfran. It only makes sense western hybrids are offered together with western growing indoor tech
Asians think new is better than old or traditional. So if you can afford to pay the electricity bill, new indoor tech with indoor varieties would be consider better than old or traditional

When Stalktont talks about meth I believe he is referring to ya ba: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ya_ba

When you are talking about hybrids being significantly faster than landraces, this means hybrids will be faster on your indoor tent, they will be faster at the tropics and western hybrids will be faster than a traditional sativa landrace at latitude 50 as well
Look at Colombia. Farmers dont seem to care much if hybrids underperform

This advertised strain in Buriram festival, Desfran. It was my first grow. I grew 2 plants indoor, one was ready at 65 days and the other was ready after 42 days.

The only areas in the world where western hybrids failed and will continue to fail to adapt are extreme hard weather conditions such as Manchuria or Red Sea basin area. In more benign desertic weather areas like the Magreb, hybridization took place long time ago

Oh I missed that commercial in the video then my bad but I still don't think they sold seeds or weed at that place. I don't think there will be a huge indoor surge of growers either but I could be wrong on that too. It's very expensive to run lights and AC all day and night so I don't think too many regular people will be doing that.

I don't see it the same way as you with thais thinking all new things are better than traditional but maybe it's more true in Bangkok. They sure love some things like the smart-phones and some of them also like western food like pizza and McDonald's but it's not like they all forgot about thai food. I still think that most new growers would be outdoor growers but it's horrible if they let companies like Dutch Passion, Greenhouse et-al sell their seeds here. Advertising is one thing but actually selling them would be really bad. Do you know for a fact that they sold seeds there at that festival?

Yaa-baa is meth, it's the same drug. Yaabaa is what they call the pressed pills which contain methamphetamine and they call the crystals for smoking Ice but it's basically the same in different packings. Yaa means medicine and Baa means crazy. So when I talked about meth I talked about methamphetamine which is both ice and yaabaa.

The western hybrids would be faster due to them responding to the photoperiod much, much quicker as well as their flowering times would be shorter. And yes, they would be quicker at lat 50 as well of course but they would probably veg a bit there too which they won't do too much here.

I don't know much about Columbia to comment on that.

Have you grown indoor hybrids in the tropical environment like south east asia? I think the points I tried to make above are quite valid for this climate. Not saying that it can't be done but I am saying there are some obstacles and one need to be quite selective on which hybrids to grow, NLDs would do much better than WLDs in my opinion.

 

[resinates well]

plus the only study so far on yield shows that Sativas yield higher

Landrace sativas yield high, but they are airy. The largest yielders have sativa structure with the Afghanica flowers, i.e Blue Dream. With plants counts in Oregon and Cali, the goal was to maximize yield per plant and this was accomplished with hybridization. I have yet to see a 12 pound landrace plant with dense flowers.

the high-yield cultivars of the future will be columnar plants, a lot like the main phenotypes of most traditional Middle Eastern landraces

It seems as if the water evaporates quickly in these columnar plants and the plants do not get very big. I've seen more of the this columnar row crop style in Cali, but often they are putting plastic down on the rows to keep the moisture in the soil. I agree this is the direction large scale cannabis row crops are going. I thought there would be more columnar very tall plants to maximize value per square feet (kind of like skyscrapers in the city), as taxes are applied based on sqft in Cali, but I'm still seeing the columnar plants as smaller and yielding less than the hybrids grown during the medical plant limit days in Cali.

whatever short-term gains there may (appear to) be from switching to hybrids, long-term it's catastrophic for everyone, not just farmers

small growers, especially backyard home growers, benefit from hybrids if they are growing for cannabinoids. This is true in the West and even in landrace regions. The secret is to preserve the landraces and be aware of accidental cross pollination.


whereas the current state of cultivars and cultivation practices in the West looks like a bad joke to any knowledgeable crop scientist --- huge amounts of wasted space between plants and caused by branching etc.[/QUOTE]

I've seen a lot of autoflowers shoved in between the large hybrids to maximize square footage. The autos get enough sun and are harvested in July and the hybrids continue to grow and are harvested in the fall.