Extinction by Hybridization: The Cannabis Biodiversity Crisis

[TheDarkStorm]

hi

on just this point:

There is a problem with the hybridization situation in the modern Western Cannabis genepool, for "marijuana"

first, very few people, companies, or institutions are keeping "pure lines" of anything, landrace or otherwise

second, most hybridization is haphazard and uncontrolled

in other words, even if we ignore the ecological catastrophe for landraces and wild populations, there is a problem just within the West itself

genetically, the overwhelming trend is that everything is getting increasingly homogenous and narrow

that's a very bad situation, and it's also a problem even for hemp

and what's causing the problem is hybridization

Ngakpa....thank you for bringing some awareness to this situation....its something that should have been looked at seriously along time ago.....maybe you could advise us an give us some insight into the vision you have...this being in writing an will hopefully be seen by many for years to come...the information an vision you have put in writing can be seen as a sort of blueprint or starting base for away forward for people, people who may not understand or may not know wat they can do...maybe it can give people tips an spark ideas on ways they can help.

 

[star crash]

 

[@hempy]

From what i have read the Thailand Government is protecting the Thai genetics from out side forces like that of the medical corporate cannabis industry and they seam to have a vast genetic collection with in University's.

There plan is to allow farmers to grow out the cannabis but they are also working on legalizing recreational use and home growing so there is hope.

 

[Amynamous]

If genetics/seeds were comic books, i’d say we are in the bronze age.

 

[resinates well]

Irrazinig of Indian Landrace Exchange says that the hybrids go for a lot more than the landraces in India, I think he said $800 an ounce for hybrid or around that price whereas landrace goes for a much lower price. The locals in landrace regions should be allowed to grow Western hybrids if they want, but one would hope that they don't have rampant open cross-pollination. A western hybrid can easily have twice the number of cannabinoid percentages. Not saying cannabinoids percentages are the most important thing, but they may be for someone who is growing specifically for high cannabinoids. I don't fault Greenhouse Seed Company for giving away seeds in these landrace regions, it is up to the locals to do what they want with them. Cannabis seeds are nutritious, they could eat them (that's what I would do with a lot of Greenhouses' seeds).
Obviously landraces are important and should be preserved. Landraces have unique qualities and perform well when introduced to environments similar to their native environment. As much as I appreciate ngapk's work and knowledge, he often calls Western hybrids "slop", but this slop is what the majority of people want. Western hybrids have gone through some impressive selections in just 50 years. I bought 12 landrace seeds last year in hopes to select and pollinate but I didn't go through with it because the flower (larfy not frosty and herm tendencies) would not be desired in California. I bought more seeds this year to go for a larger phenohunt. I plan to cross two landrace cultivars from the same region together for preservation. I hope landraces are preserved, but I also hope that locals in landrace regions can enjoy Western hybrids if they want.

 

[brickweeder]

...but I also hope that locals in landrace regions can enjoy Western hybrids if they want.

No doubt they will; hence, the topic of this thread.

 

[resinates well]

Yeah if they let pollen fly around then hybridization is a risk to landrace preservation, but if they grow Western hybrids while being aware to not contaminate their landraces, whether that be with isolation or increasing gender stability (no herms, pulling males, clones, fem seeds). We are dealing with similar issues here in NorCal with hemp and cross pollination and have been dealing with cross pollination issues for years.

 

[resinates well]

Cross pollination is not an easy thing to deal with, but it is manageable. Genetics in Norcal are sometimes contaminated, but not enough for it continue in the gene pool. If the male is not known then the cultivar is mostly discontinued. For example, there aren't hemp/thc hybrids all over the place in Norcal, though the area where I am had hundreds of acres of hemp last year and close to that number of acres of THC cannabis.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

Hybridization is the main cause of extinction and biodiversity loss in Cannabis.

That is just kind of like saying:
"Extinction through Evolution".

Um yeah, that's usually how it works.
The biodiversity crisis should not specifically be blamed on hybridization however. The truth is if everyone was inbreeding all their weed, trying to keep it "pure" this crisis would be much more detrimental to weed biodiversity, as not only would the genepool be narrowing down but it would be suffering from inbreeding depression as well.
This is a problem that exists for all agriculture, and has more to do with the fact that people/populations tend to have similar tastes, ie they all want the same thing, hence the farmers all tend to be growing the same thing in order to stay relevant to the market in which they are participating. Needless to say, diversity suffers.


Stopping hybrids won't help curb the "biodiversity crisis" in fact it will just make things worse. The answer lies in preserving landrace seedstock, which has absolutely nothing to do with hybridization.

 

[Stocktont]

From what i have read the Thailand Government is protecting the Thai genetics from out side forces like that of the medical corporate cannabis industry and they seam to have a vast genetic collection with in University's.

There plan is to allow farmers to grow out the cannabis but they are also working on legalizing recreational use and home growing so there is hope.

It would be good for this discussion if you could provide links or sources as to where you read the things that lead you to this statement. I have been very interested in following the legal thai cannabis situation and I would very much like to know your sources on this as it is not what I have learned. But I am not about to argue about it I just want to know where you have read this. I would want nothing more than for this to be true but I have my doubts it will play out the way you put it.

How are the government protecting the Thai genetics from “out side forces like that of the medical corporate cannabis industry”? Do you mean that they are protecting the Thai cannabis industry from outside industries such as American, European, Australian and other foreign operators? Or do you mean they are protecting it against the Thai medical corporations? There's a difference.

Where did you learn that “Universities” have vast collections of genetics? Which universities would that be and who runs them would be a very good question to also ask if this is so.

Where have you learnt that they are planning to allow farmers to grow out the cannabis and that they are also going to allow for legal recreational markets and also home growing? Trust me I would love for this to be true but I am not sure if you define “allow farmers to grow out the cannabis”, “allowing for recreational markets” and “home growing” much different than I do but I have seen nothing that indicates that this is what is about to happen. Again I would be thrilled if it was.

I would like to hear what @ngakpa have to say on this topic as I perceive him to have a fair grip on this country and the culture/politics. To me it seems like the Thai government are not going to “allow” for anything cannabis except for a kind of medical and that cannabis would be provided by government controlled farms.

I have seen the talk that it could in the future be beneficial to thai farmers if cannabis was legalized and much, much more open than it is under the current medical laws today. Key words here are “talk”, “could” and “if” which make a big difference as they have not at all been realized nor can I see any indication that they will be in the manner that one assume from reading the post I quote in this.

Not trying to argue here just trying to have a discussion on this topic as it is close to my heart and I don't want myself or anyone else getting the wrong impressions things are going to be great cannabis wise in this region any time soon. Again no one would be happier than me if it was the case but I just don't see it that way.... yet. So pretty please and with sugar on top, could you please provide the sources of this information.

 

[J-Icky]

The main issue with the modern scene is all the pollen chuckers crossing the same handful or strains together. Sure Chem and Sour and Cookies and Glue are all great but they also need to be out crosses to what some would consider less desirable strains to introduce new genes to the pool. Instead we get Kush x Chem, then Glue x Sour and then the next guy crosses those two crosses and then the next guy crosses that new one back to Chem and the next to glue and so the inbreeding continues.

Also we all need to realize this plant grew to what it is today from a handful of plants. Nature is an amazing thing and even if all but a few strains were completely wiped out the plant would find a way.

Finally as for the high changing. Well I think this is more to do with the potency than the hybrids. Especially when it comes to the “crash” effect. I’m more the believer that this is do to too much too fast than anything else. That’s also what I think led to the old ceilingless effect. Now you get smashed in the face with a ton of bricks, where before you’d get a slower more creeping effect.

Anyway these are just my thoughts and I’d love to have more land races available, but sadly RSC won’t ship to the USA and the places that do carry RSC that will ship never have any of the seeds I’d be interested in.

 

[p59teitel]

Anyway these are just my thoughts and I’d love to have more land races available, but sadly RSC won’t ship to the USA and the places that do carry RSC that will ship never have any of the seeds I’d be interested in.

kwikseeds.com ships everything RSC carries to the U.S.

 

[@hempy]

Community groups in Buriram have been asked to grow and cultivate medical-grade marijuana to be delivered to the state-owned Khu Muang Hospital as part of Anutin’s announced “Buriram Model”. The model is meant to serve as a prototype for co-operatives operated by farmers and medical institutions. He’s considering making recreational cannabis use
legal, a stance which is in stark contrast to that of the government just a year ago.

The Thai government invested 100 million baht (US$3.3 million) in the first indoor growing facility, which opened last year, and bought 12,000 cannabis plant seedlings, marijuana market researchers Prohibition Partners said. A plan to prepare one million bottles of cannabis oil by February 2020 “shows ambition” on the part of the Thai government, the company said.
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/heal...cal-marijuana-craze-people-rush-grow-drug-now


Mr Anutin, who is also deputy prime minister, said he has signed a draft regulation which will be examined by the Council of State and then submitted to the cabinet for consideration.
The proposed regulation seeks to allow individual farmers to gain permission to grow cannabis plants for medical purposes but the farming will have to be a joint scheme with an authorised state agency, he said yesterday. Permission to grow cannabis will be reviewed by the Food and Drug Administration.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1805164/push-for-farmers-to-grow-cannabis


Before becoming Thailand’s deputy premier in the pro-military government coalition, Anutin campaigned on a pledge to legalise medical marijuana and allow household growing to boost incomes. Thai voters responded in a show of support, putting Anutin’s Bhum Jai Thai party into fifth place in Thailand’s March election.
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/heal...cal-marijuana-craze-people-rush-grow-drug-now

 

[Stocktont]

Community groups in Buriram have been asked to grow and cultivate medical-grade marijuana to be delivered to the state-owned Khu Muang Hospital as part of Anutin’s announced “Buriram Model”. The model is meant to serve as a prototype for co-operatives operated by farmers and medical institutions. He’s considering making recreational cannabis use
legal, a stance which is in stark contrast to that of the government just a year ago.

The Thai government invested 100 million baht (US$3.3 million) in the first indoor growing facility, which opened last year, and bought 12,000 cannabis plant seedlings, marijuana market researchers Prohibition Partners said. A plan to prepare one million bottles of cannabis oil by February 2020 “shows ambition” on the part of the Thai government, the company said.
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/heal...cal-marijuana-craze-people-rush-grow-drug-now


Mr Anutin, who is also deputy prime minister, said he has signed a draft regulation which will be examined by the Council of State and then submitted to the cabinet for consideration.
The proposed regulation seeks to allow individual farmers to gain permission to grow cannabis plants for medical purposes but the farming will have to be a joint scheme with an authorised state agency, he said yesterday. Permission to grow cannabis will be reviewed by the Food and Drug Administration.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1805164/push-for-farmers-to-grow-cannabis


Before becoming Thailand’s deputy premier in the pro-military government coalition, Anutin campaigned on a pledge to legalise medical marijuana and allow household growing to boost incomes. Thai voters responded in a show of support, putting Anutin’s Bhum Jai Thai party into fifth place in Thailand’s March election.
https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/heal...cal-marijuana-craze-people-rush-grow-drug-now

Yes this was before the election last year but nothing has happened with it since. I have a friend that even started the application process to grow, sell and export cannabis but nothing happened to that either. The first link is from February last year and the election was after. The Mr that they are referring to in that article is since the new government last year the health minister of this country and he's done nothing to give regular farmers the ability to grow legally nor has he done anything to promote legislation of recreational cannabis.

The farm or farms that they write about are growing on license and then it goes to a government controlled company for processing. The last thing I heard was that to get medical cannabis one can only get oil, which they are producing from those crops.

It says it allows farmers to apply to grow, like my friend has done almost two years ago but it says nothing of them ever being granted to grow. Key words are they have to be approved by the government, which isn't that easy nor is it happening in any quantity. Another key word is that the Mr that is being referred to, who is now the health minister of said country, campaigned on this but what has happened since then? I read most of those articles more than one year ago and there's still nothing happening with regular farmers being able to grow cannabis and there's nothing happening to move anything to recreational.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to happen but I don't believe it until it happens. One has to know a bit about thai politics to understand that they might say one thing and do something different. He (the Mr) got a lot of votes saying things like that. I sure hope he is going to champion the things he said before the election but one also has to understand that his fifth placed party doesn't run the show here, it's still a guy who used to wear a uniform that is the boss and has majority in their form of parliament.

 

[ngakpa]

I would like to hear what @ngakpa have to say on this topic as I perceive him to have a fair grip on this country and the culture/politics. To me it seems like the Thai government are not going to “allow” for anything cannabis except for a kind of medical and that cannabis would be provided by government controlled farms.

the current government in Thailand came to power in a military coup

the main purpose of the coup was to disenfranchise rural Thais, especially Thais from the Northeast (Isan)

basically, in simple terms, democracy wasn't working out for the Bangkok royalist elite

I wouldn't expect the current Thai government (junta) to do anything that will empower or enrich farmers in regions like the North or Isan

so yeah, I wouldn't expect to see many licenses being issued for farmer co-ops or to see legalisation of production for "recreational" use

I'd be very interested to see any evidence for Thailand (govt or universities) having stores of Thai landrace germplasm

so far, all I've seen looks like bold claims and gossip, but nothing more than that

 

[Stocktont]

the current government in Thailand came to power in a military coup

the main purpose of the coup was to disenfranchise rural Thais, especially Thais from the Northeast (Isan)

basically, in simple terms, democracy wasn't working out for the Bangkok royalist elite

I wouldn't expect the current Thai government (junta) to do anything that will empower or enrich farmers in regions like the North or Isan

so yeah, I wouldn't expect to see many licenses being issued for farmer co-ops or to see legalisation of production for "recreational" use

I'd be very interested to see any evidence for Thailand (govt or universities) having stores of Thai landrace germplasm

so far, all I've seen looks like bold claims and gossip, but nothing more than that

Thanks @ngakpa my thoughts exactly. I don't believe that they will legalize cannabis so anyone can grow it and benefit from it though the small step of making medicinal possible (through government controlled means) has somewhat lessened the stigma of growing a few plants locally. Nothing major at all and it is still as dangerous as ever to grow any quantity of cannabis. They might make it possible to get a license but they might never issue one single license or they might only issue it to a few well connected making oil for the cancer patients. I don't see it becoming recreational either as I don't think it is at all on their agenda though they could stand to make a lot of money on cannabis tourism etc. if they did.

Sorry to fill your thread about hybridization with all this thai stuff. I let you get on with the main topic of the thread, thanks for the reply.

 

[ngakpa]

$800 an ounce for hybrid

in India?

utter nonsense...

for context, last time I checked, a university lecturer in provincial India doesn't make that in two months...

keeping it polite, let's just say that for an objective view of India, sometimes you're best not to rely on a single source...

The locals in landrace regions should be allowed to grow Western hybrids if they want.

framing this discussion as a question of what farmers in landraces regions "want" or "choose" is very convenient though, isn't it?

I've answered these types of arguments here, see the comments too

Do Landrace Farmers Need Modern Hybrid Strains?
https://landrace.blog/2020/06/19/do-landrace-farmers-need-modern-hybrid-strains/

he often calls Western hybrids "slop"

he? lol, I'm reading all this, you know

you've taken that use of the term "slop" out of context

talking from the perspective of creating future cultivars, i.e. serious crop breeding efforts, modern hybrids are mostly slop

they're an increasingly homegeneous, arbitrary mess


in Central Asia, you have perhaps 28 million years of biodiversity

in South Asia, you have perhaps 40,000 years

wiping that out for a perceived short-term gain is... you know... a bad idea

this is about much more than just losing landraces themselves

your wiping out that vast genetic resource means you wipe out a multitude of future creations - creations and cultivars we haven't even begun to conceive of yet

maybe a place to start thinking about this from is the profound inequality in the relationship between say Indian rich kids or Western tourists who bring these seeds and the marginalized farming communities themselves, most of who are subsistence farmers

Imagine a man dying of hunger. Before him is a bowl of gruel. At the top of a distant mountain is a banquet. He can choose one meal. How honest is it to say that he “chose” the gruel?
https://landrace.blog/2020/06/19/do-landrace-farmers-need-modern-hybrid-strains/

 

[ngakpa]

Sorry to fill your thread about hybridization with all this thai stuff. I let you get on with the main topic of the thread, thanks for the reply.

not at all, Thailand is totally relevant, especially the Isan versus Bangkok royalists aspect, and the question of who gets to benefit from legalisation

legalisation has to address the injustices of prohibition

the long-term prosperity of farming communities like in northern Isan should be central to this

ultimately the Cannabis biodiversity crisis is a story about inequality

on on side, you have the poor marginalized farming communities and the vast store of Cannabis biodiversity

on the other, you have wealthy governments, corporations, Internet seed banks, Western tourists, and priveleged Asian kids

I can see the temptation to frame this ecological catastrophe as a question of landrace farmers “wanting” to grow hybrids. On the face of it, that appears to be a good liberal argument about freedom and equality of opportunity. Conveniently, it also absolves those continuing to spread hybrid seed out of the West from any sense of culpability – or from having to think about the profound inequality in their relationship with these farmers.

The economic reality is of course fundamentally not one that entails any real choice. Precisely these arguments about apparent “choices” are used to excuse the Western colonial era: “Indians “chose” to buy cheap industrial textiles dumped on them by the British. So, Indians “chose” to destroy their own textile industry”. Similar arguments were made by tobacco corporations when it started to become clear smoking causes cancer. Similar arguments are made today by Monsanto.

Currently in Asia, there are two types of place where you find hybrids. Where tourists go. And where there’s access to the Internet and people who can afford to buy hybrid seed online, with the cards to do it. Again, this story is fundamentally about economic inequality. The people giving farmers the seeds are from outside their communities and come from vastly more privileged classes.

Whatever short-term gains growing hybrids may bring these farming communties, the ultimate consequences are profoundly destructive for everyone. The communities’ heritage, wealth, resources are destroyed, taking with it not just authentic products such as real Nepali charas but also a multitude of possible future indigenous cultivars. The vast majority of the genetic diversity of Cannabis as a species is simultaneously annihiliated. Everyone loses.
https://landrace.blog/2020/06/19/do-landrace-farmers-need-modern-hybrid-strains/

 

[ahortator]

We all know the first thing legalized in Thialand is medical uses, which nowadays means CBD. So everybody in the businees will grow CBD strains, formerly known as rope hemp, well, enhaced by breeding to get higher CBD %. They will continue seizing good Thai landraces and chasing the farmers.

https://www.thaicbd.info/

Are you aware of European hemp grown in Malawi?

https://www.invegrow.com/

https://www.malawihemp.org/

Entrepreneurs are destroying everything everywhere!

 

[ngakpa]

fwiw,

historically, ganja and hemp have been grown in Laos and Thailand

there's some hemp growing in the north of Thailand

and there's hemp in Laos in the north and in southern Central Laos

reason it's not a big problem:

the two crops are grown on totally different cycle, usually

so there's a reproductive barrier

usually means they don't cross

Hmong friends in Laos started their hemp crop this winter

ganja starts around now