Extinction by Hybridization: The Cannabis Biodiversity Crisis

[Corn Planter]

https://thaicannabiscorporation.com/about/
This is the “corporation” in charge of Thai medical.
A lot of western looking folks.
University in Chiang Mai called Mae-Jo is where the research plants are held.
I think they had a limited number of growers they licensed to grow for. They provide the cuttings for the farmer and he return s finished product.
I also think each household could grow 6 plants, but had to be from their stock?

 

[@hempy]

This story is from the Thai Law Forum
Health Minister: Thais Will Be Able to Grow Marijuana at Home

https://www.thailawforum.com/health-minister-thais-will-be-able-to-grow-marijuana-at-home/


This is interesting

The "Pan Buriram" (Buriram Strain) festival coincided with the annual "4/20" date celebrated by marijuana users globally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI12sXT5VYc

 

[gatts]

Yes cbd strains are another threat. Totally over looking thc and any other still unknown compounds. Breeding the high out for “medical” properties.

And yet it is because of these CBD varieties that so much awareness and acceptance of cannabis has taken place.

CBD has been an absolute game changer. It has allowed a door to legalisation that may never have been opened. It has also allowed so many people to achieve seizure control or reduction and also reduce opioid dependence.

In terms of hybridization, I would think it would be on par with only breeding for high THC/THCV etc etc.

 

[Stocktont]

https://thaicannabiscorporation.com/about/
This is the “corporation” in charge of Thai medical.
A lot of western looking folks.
University in Chiang Mai called Mae-Jo is where the research plants are held.
I think they had a limited number of growers they licensed to grow for. They provide the cuttings for the farmer and he return s finished product.
I also think each household could grow 6 plants, but had to be from their stock?

I tried to find out who owns that company but I didn't spend a lot of time on it. I bet it is controlled by the same people that control the rest of the country in the end. The western faces are probably hired personnel at some sort of consulting level. The first bullet point of their mission statement was to ensure that this country can grab some of the cannabis profits world wide so I am not surprised that some westerners are working for them but I doubt that they own it. It's hard to own things here even if one circumvents the laws of foreigners owning things like property and companies it is always a 51% majority of citizens of this country owning it be it what is called “nominees” or outright. I am also sure that the people calling the shots in the end are not westerners.

When you say “I think each household could grow 6 plants” I think that the key word is “think”. Either the laws are not the same in the Chang Mai region compared to the rest of the country (but I am pretty sure they are the same) or you got that information from an unreliable source. Where did you find that information? If that would be true I would be very happy but I don't think it is.

I know that the organization that handles this country's agricultural decisions are a branch of the army and it's controlled by the government. I saw the application papers almost two years ago when a friend was going to apply to grow, sell and export cannabis products. He's got no license and I am not aware of anyone else getting one, at least no one not controlled by the agricultural ministry. I would be happy if anyone proved me wrong on this though, very happy indeed.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

It would be good for this discussion if you could provide links or sources as to where you read the things that lead you to this statement. I have been very interested in following the legal thai cannabis situation and I would very much like to know your sources on this as it is not what I have learned. But I am not about to argue about it I just want to know where you have read this. I would want nothing more than for this to be true but I have my doubts it will play out the way you put it.

How are the government protecting the Thai genetics from “out side forces like that of the medical corporate cannabis industry”? Do you mean that they are protecting the Thai cannabis industry from outside industries such as American, European, Australian and other foreign operators? Or do you mean they are protecting it against the Thai medical corporations? There's a difference.

Where did you learn that “Universities” have vast collections of genetics? Which universities would that be and who runs them would be a very good question to also ask if this is so.

Where have you learnt that they are planning to allow farmers to grow out the cannabis and that they are also going to allow for legal recreational markets and also home growing? Trust me I would love for this to be true but I am not sure if you define “allow farmers to grow out the cannabis”, “allowing for recreational markets” and “home growing” much different than I do but I have seen nothing that indicates that this is what is about to happen. Again I would be thrilled if it was.

I would like to hear what @ngakpa have to say on this topic as I perceive him to have a fair grip on this country and the culture/politics. To me it seems like the Thai government are not going to “allow” for anything cannabis except for a kind of medical and that cannabis would be provided by government controlled farms.

I have seen the talk that it could in the future be beneficial to thai farmers if cannabis was legalized and much, much more open than it is under the current medical laws today. Key words here are “talk”, “could” and “if” which make a big difference as they have not at all been realized nor can I see any indication that they will be in the manner that one assume from reading the post I quote in this.

Not trying to argue here just trying to have a discussion on this topic as it is close to my heart and I don't want myself or anyone else getting the wrong impressions things are going to be great cannabis wise in this region any time soon. Again no one would be happier than me if it was the case but I just don't see it that way.... yet. So pretty please and with sugar on top, could you please provide the sources of this information.

Hi Stocktont, not sure, sounds familiar, just a guess but he might have got it from here:.

https://landrace.blog/


Anyway, unless you have a population of pure landraces in your closet, hybridization isn't going to hurt anything, go for it, trust me their is no problem, you are not endangering the species, it's ok.
Try to save what you got, or else start searching for something great, life is short and everything changes.

 

[Stocktont]

This story is from the Thai Law Forum
Health Minister: Thais Will Be Able to Grow Marijuana at Home

https://www.thailawforum.com/health-minister-thais-will-be-able-to-grow-marijuana-at-home/


This is interesting

The "Pan Buriram" (Buriram Strain) festival coincided with the annual "4/20" date celebrated by marijuana users globally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI12sXT5VYc

The first link didn't work but I found the webpage in question and it was set up by the prime minister of this country to “educate” the people on cannabis. I sure hope that they will do as they say and that there will be little to no difference to their public statements like “farmers will soon be able to grow Hemp” but it is also hemp, not THC varieties they are talking about.

The video surely is not correlating with what the government seem to otherwise project when it comes to cannabis. The first thing I saw was someone smoking a joint. Under the current situation and law it is not legal to smoke cannabis. If one can get a medical treatment of cannabis it has to be oil from the government processing. No smoking. The webpage also stated that they were going to hold the worlds first “Gangja” festival in February of this year (2020) but the covid-19 situation have made all festivals and large gatherings illegal. We are still under emergency decree which was prolonged for a third time until the end of July. Again I would love it if they would open up like some of the information suggests but I doubt it and nothing of the sort has happened yet.

One need to understand that the public statements not always correlate with later reality in this region. It's not like a normal western country where one can read the papers or the internet and get information from any official source and believe it and trust it. It can be changed or never implemented as they see fit. I don't want to go into it much more than that but it's not easy to understand how things work here if one has never lived here. There's often one “face” in public and another reality in daily life. It is also not very safe to criticize the politics and certain other things here as it is illegal, especially for foreigners. One could easily end up in jail just talking about the wrong things. They might propose a lot of things and make websites on how everyone will prosper from things but reality might not live up to those words and images in the end.

I hope they will realize that they can make a lot of money on cannabis but I also think that there are a few other things that might get in the way of that. And even if it would be possible, like a lot of other ventures it might not be available for everyone to just prosper in this new venture. Let's wait and see what they will do rather than to think we know from what they say.

 

[Stocktont]

Hi Stocktont, not sure, sounds familiar, just a guess but he probably got it from here:.

https://landrace.blog/


Anyway, unless you have a population of pure landraces in your closet, hybridization isn't going to hurt anything, go for it, trust me their is no problem, you are not endangering the species, it's ok.

I saw a link on that website provided by the government where they said they have proposed a law for 6 plants per household. Proposed it is not a reality. I would love for it to become a reality for sure but I am not too hopeful they will go that route if they allow for any kind of cannabis farming. Again we have to wait and see if they make reality of their proposal and it's also important to understand who proposed it. Was it the ruling party or one of the smaller parties in the parliament? The one I saw came from one of the smaller parties, it's not at all a given that they will get anything they propose through into law, it is still up to the majority holder or it won't happen.

I don't think the hybridization comment was meant for me right?

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

I saw a link on that website provided by the government where they said they have proposed a law for 6 plants per household. Proposed it is not a reality. I would love for it to become a reality for sure but I am not too hopeful they will go that route if they allow for any kind of cannabis farming. Again we have to wait and see if they make reality of their proposal and it's also important to understand who proposed it. Was it the ruling party or one of the smaller parties in the parliament? The one I saw came from one of the smaller parties, it's not at all a given that they will get anything they propose through into law, it is still up to the majority holder or it won't happen.

I don't think the hybridization comment was meant for me right?

Hi Stocktont,
Yes I agree, the whole thing sounds suspect...


No not for you, it was a general comment for some folks who seem to think that maybe all of this means hybrids themselves are somehow bad.



I am well aware of the problem with folks like those at greenhouse gifting feminized seed to indigenous populations. People should boycott companies that pull that garbage, but it is not the main reason we are losing these landraces. We are losing these indigenous populations, and their weed is going with the rest of their cultures that are disappearing. Preservation is the only answer, and the idea that you have to grow 2000 plants to be any help is misguided truth. Grab what you can and save it with what resources you have, it's better then nothing.

 

[Stocktont]

Hi Stocktont,
Yes I agree, the whole thing sounds suspect...


No not for you, it was a general comment for some folks who seem to think that maybe all of this means hybrids themselves are somehow bad.



I am well aware of the problem with folks like those at greenhouse gifting feminized seed to indigenous populations. People should boycott companies that pull that garbage, but it is not the main reason we are losing these landraces. We are losing these indigenous populations, and their weed is going with the rest of their cultures that are disappearing. Preservation is the only answer, and the idea that you have to grow 2000 plants to be any help is misguided truth. Grab what you can and save it with what resources you have, it's better then nothing.

Well if people grow hybrids indoors and don't let pollen out it's not a problem but I can also see it being a problem if one guy grows some hybrids in a field or even just a few plants and won't pull out males or hermies quick enough. I have had female plants pollinated by unknown pollen from other people that I can't see and don't know are growing close enough by so that my plants get seeded. It's not about the bad or good qualities of hybrids but it's about the risk of not being able to keep things pure or clean I think.

The illegal status also makes this hard to avoid as here some people are putting plants out in the jungle or fields but they're not able to care for their plants as it is dangerous to do so (legally) and they let males and hermies pollinate and pollute. I think it is a big problem for outdoor growing of cannabis that it can easily be pollinated by something you don't intend to cross into your crop and I think that in a legal system it can at least be addressed if one farmer is lazy and keep forgetting to pull his males etc. you can just go over to that guy and say hey dude, pull your fucking males. But in a totally illegal reality it's not advisable to go around trying to find out who's growing close to you and then give away the fact that you are growing as well.

I also get the problem with hybridization from the aspect of everything's getting mixed and some very rare or old or special types gets mixed with something else, even if that something else is good it's not the intention and the corp, in terms of seeds for next year and the future of that type.

Greenhouse “strain hunter” thing is just laughable though. They intend to collect all the landrace seeds in the wold and then they will have the biggest library of types to make their new varieties and make money. It's kind of a farce to watch when they go to places with cars marked “strain hunters” and “greenhouse seeds” and pretend that they are cutting new ground. Also giving farmers color coded feminized seeds to grow is not what I would like to see happen. I haven't taken those people seriously for decades but they are going out there and making their marketing spectacles of videos. How much impact they've had I don't know but the idea is appalling for sure. How many “new varieties” have they created from that “worlds greatest library of cannabis”? I haven't kept up with them for a long time but after those first videos of them going to India, Africa etc. came out I didn't see them releasing anything from those landrace seeds they collected. Pity those Malawi locals couldn't get their hands on the greenhouse crew when they got upset about them collecting their seeds though.

 

[ngakpa]

I am well aware of the problem with folks like those at greenhouse gifting feminized seed to indigenous populations. People should boycott companies that pull that garbage, but it is not the main reason we are losing these landraces. We are losing these indigenous populations, and their weed is going with the rest of their cultures that are disappearing.

with respect, you've got this completely wrong

some of the main ethnicities that traditionally cultivate Cannabis in Asia:

Pahari
Afghan
Chitrali
Thai
Lao
Tamil
Bengali
Punjabi
Khmer
etc.

they or their cultures are not at any risk of disappearing!

the massive influx of hybrid seed into Asia is now the main reason we are losing landraces and faced with massive extinction of genetic diversity in Cannabis

it's an undisputed fact, among experts, that hybridization is the main cause of biodiversity loss and extinction in Cannabis

read

Cannabis: A Complete Guide
by Ernest Small (2016)
https://archive.org/details/CannabisACompleteGuide2016

read

A classification of endangered high-THC cannabis (Cannabis sativa subsp. indica) domesticates and their wild relatives
by McPartland & Small (2020)
https://phytokeys.pensoft.net/article/46700/element/5/31/

I think maybe you imagine that "hybridization" just means some kind of controlled breeding, right?

in fact, in this context it mostly means the uncontrolled process of foreign genetics crossing with indigenous populations (i.e. introgressive hybidization) that will happen all by itself once the pollen starts dropping (travelling at least 5 km each generation)

that result is known by technical terms such as 'genetic swamping' and 'demographic swamping'

for a video on the general topic, you could look at this from the leading expert in plant evolutionary genomics, Loren Rieseberg

Extinction by Hybridization
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBl8cbLnwv8

 

[ngakpa]

it was a general comment for some folks who seem to think that maybe all of this means hybrids themselves are somehow bad.

very much not what I'm saying

 

[ngakpa]

Anyway, unless you have a population of pure landraces in your closet, hybridization isn't going to hurt anything, go for it, trust me their is no problem, you are not endangering the species, it's ok.
Try to save what you got, or else start searching for something great, life is short and everything changes.

with respect, you've not taken the time to understand the context of this discussion

Overwhelmingly, the genetic diversity of Cannabis is in Asia

That's especially the case for "marijuana"

And above all, the genetic diversity is in the wild populations

It's also in the traditional domesticates (landraces)

Dropping hybrids and other non-native strains into that mix creates an ecological catastrophe

It's irreversible, and the consequences will affect everyone

 

[ngakpa]

maybe you could advise us an give us some insight into the vision you have...this being in writing an will hopefully be seen by many for years to come...

sure, thanks for asking

my suggestion - and it's nothing more than a suggestion

for personal growers, being more conscious of the value of keeping pure lines, whether landraces, heirlooms, "IBLs"

raising awareness of the value of landraces, not just as a nostalgia thing, but as a genetic resource from which to create a multitude of new cultivars

raising awareness that many Cannabis populations are critically endangered

rely on authoritative books and studies

for seed storage, Sam Skunkman has a good thread here with many links to authoritative studies
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=286734

and for all-round authoritative information, including storage and the importance of wild-type and landrace germplasm:
https://archive.org/details/CannabisACompleteGuide2016

fundamentally, be more conscious and intentional about how you cultivate and breed your plants

 

[grayeyes]

Jeez, Angus. Ever hear the expression "quit while you are ahead"?

You won, everybody knows.

 

[star crash]

This is a fascinating discussion ...it’s all I can do is to read it ...and try to absorb it...

 

[ngakpa]

@tooting

Prohibition has mostly caused crops to move around, aka the "balloon effect"

Squeeze one place and the crop moves elsewhere.

That's well-documented in Thailand since the '80s, i.e. production moved north and east, mostly across the Mekong into Central Laos.

In ganja producing regions, prohibition has certainly affected product quality.

But it hasn't resulted in massive permanent loss of genetic diversity.

That's the difference.

Hybridization with foreign genetics = permanent irreversible loss.

The Akha have no legal right to land. Does this not threaten their ability to cultivate?

Akha don't traditionally cultivate Cannabis. They grow opium. Commercial ganja cultivation of ganja by Akha is very new in the scheme of things.

(Land rights for Akha is a problem in Thailand, but that's not the case in Laos)

In Thailand you can find old weed farers that used to fill fields in Isaan they don't grow anything but rice now.

right, but cultivation just moved to Khammouane, Bolikhamsai, Vientiane Province etc., which is historically where much of the ganja production was already anyway.

Kerala is much the same they rip everything out of the ground and parade the poor farmers on tv like they were murderers. It wasn't like this 20/30/40 years ago. The strains were protected by the growers and the growers are out of the game. And that's not a factor?

right, but same story - production shifted location to Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Andhra etc. and until very recently the Idukki landrace was one of the main ones used. Only recently farmers have started using landrace x hybrid crosses.

In Sri Lanka it's war that's almost killed of the Vedas weed.

War typically causes more production, not less

You still got the old Kerala that's minty?

yes, will post photo and report here in a minute

 

[ngakpa]

You still got the old Kerala that's minty?

Our Kerala (Idukki), grower's photo, c. 15 weeks, organic soil, no liquid feed, 5 gallon pot indoors.

"Very strong mint garden spice aroma, very narrow leaves. The smell is so strong as strong as fresh picked garden mints and spices. Strong clean and happy smell."

Purple-blue colour indicates how the name "blue dreads" or "neelachadayan" came about. Others suggest this means "blue poison".

Covid-19 stopped our plans to get seed from our old-timer Keralan farmer source in Idukki this year. He still has fields up in the Western Ghat highlands along the Tamil Nadu - Kerala border.

A different grower got a plant from the same 2015 accession tested and it was c. 15% - 17% THC.

Here's a report from another plant, different grower again, but same accession:



"This was from the best of 5 ladies , very musky aroma/flavour with spicy undertones, and a soaring high which begins rather dense before smoothing into a creative and happy multi-hour trip. Final height was around 150cm in 6L coco coir and taken at ~16-17wks bloom."

Again, different grower, same accession:

 

[Corn Planter]

And yet it is because of these CBD varieties that so much awareness and acceptance of cannabis has taken place.

CBD has been an absolute game changer. It has allowed a door to legalisation that may never have been opened. It has also allowed so many people to achieve seizure control or reduction and also reduce opioid dependence.

In terms of hybridization, I would think it would be on par with only breeding for high THC/THCV etc etc.

I agree 100% that cbd has been a game changer and is of great aid to many.
I just worry that cbd rich bred strains getting mixed with thc cultivators.
I personally have little use for cbd rich strains and prefer my ganja high in other cannabinoids.
Charlottes web x Colombian Gold doesn’t sound good to me.
I fear all thc rich strains are under threat for medical friendly cbd strains.

 

[J-Icky]

kwikseeds.com ships everything RSC carries to the U.S.

Awesome thank you. I had seen them while searching for sources but the way the site looked I thought I was a scam site. It’s setup and runs almost the exact same as the RSC site so I thought it was just cloned, renamed and recolored by some scam artist.

Good to know they are legit.

 

[HAZENACIOUS]

with respect, you've not taken the time to understand the context of this discussion

Overwhelmingly, the genetic diversity of Cannabis is in Asia

That's especially the case for "marijuana"

And above all, the genetic diversity is in the wild populations

It's also in the traditional domesticates (landraces)

Dropping hybrids and other non-native strains into that mix creates an ecological catastrophe

It's irreversible, and the consequences will affect everyone

I understand, you perfectly my friend and my point is perhaps a bit pessimistic, but what I am saying is that this really can't be stopped, it's happening all over the world.

Sure there might be a few scumbags out there like the strain hunter crew for example, who are introducing hybrids where they shouldn't be, but this is not the primary reason for the mass extinctions we are seeing. These are primarily the result of the industrial revolution finally reaching every nook and cranny on earth, the result being that the cultures that have traditionally produced these strains are disappearing. My point is that Because this process is irreversible, our only hope at this point is to work on preserving anything we can still get our hands on, because even if we find a way to stop poachers like Greenhouse, even if we stop every one of them, most likely it won't even slow down the cascade of landrace extinctions we are seeing right now, because these extinctions are mainly the result of cultural die off.