Experienced Sealed Room Growers needed

[TheyCallMeJJay]

I think the my advice may not be useful due to using organics. I need oxygen just as much as I need C02.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

I think the my advice may not be useful due to using organics. I need oxygen just as much as I need C02.

THis does not make a difference. All plant roots need oxygen and all rooms need oxygen to keep anaerobic bacteria's from taking over.

Since you are also using a burner, maybe cutting your levels in half has reduced the amount of this ethylene byproduct i have recently learned about from the links that were posted previously in this thread. I would suggest reading them if you are using a burner, great info.

Maybe at 700 the levels are not effecting the plants as much.

Do you do air exchanges in your room?

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

theother, i just got this quote of those links:

"Oxygen Levels and Intake. Providing enough
ventilation and intake of fresh air from outside
the greenhouse is also critical. There should be
14 cubic feet of air for each cubic foot of gas
burned (Flood, 1999) or 1 square inch of vent
cross-sectional area of opening from outside air
should be provided for every 2,500 Btu capacity
of the heater (Nelson, 1991)."

I am 99.9% ready to stop using the burner but i found this interesting. The article is about greenhouses and the use of heaters rather then burners but essentially they are same thing correct? I dont know exactly how many BTUs im using with 4 burner tips operating but i bet i could have figured it out. Im still ready to jump ship but thought that equation was kinda interesting.

 

[theother]

theother, i just got this quote of those links:

"Oxygen Levels and Intake. Providing enough
ventilation and intake of fresh air from outside
the greenhouse is also critical. There should be
14 cubic feet of air for each cubic foot of gas
burned (Flood, 1999) or 1 square inch of vent
cross-sectional area of opening from outside air
should be provided for every 2,500 Btu capacity
of the heater (Nelson, 1991)."

I am 99.9% ready to stop using the burner but i found this interesting. The article is about greenhouses and the use of heaters rather then burners but essentially they are same thing correct? I dont know exactly how many BTUs im using with 4 burner tips operating but i bet i could have figured it out. Im still ready to jump ship but thought that equation was kinda interesting.

The conclusion that I came to when dealing with it was that whatever was wrong was a byproduct of combustion. I also felt like it may have possibly somehow hung around more than co2? (Heavier or lighter, or maybe it happened only at the beginning of the burn) like we were talking about I tried the periodic venting in every different way. In desperation I even just straight left a 6" fan on a rheostat turned down pulling through a filter (constant draw off the room) and fuck me if it didn't seem to get worse.

A wise man said to me, go get bottled gas you fucking idiot, and I did (I actually had a bottle and reg I just had to track it down) that next run life was good again.

I'm not really saying your going through the exact same thing I did, I haven't seen pictures of yours and even if I did I am not familiar with the rhythms and norms of your garden. I can just tell you from my own garden, general health just got really a lot lower. Everything was harder, and the most unforgivable sin in my opinion was hat stuff would just degrease over night if anything slipped out of whack. Unfortunately I was changing so many it was hard to notice at first.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

The conclusion that I came to when dealing with it was that whatever was wrong was a byproduct of combustion. I also felt like it may have possibly somehow hung around more than co2? (Heavier or lighter, or maybe it happened only at the beginning of the burn) like we were talking about I tried the periodic venting in every different way. In desperation I even just straight left a 6" fan on a rheostat turned down pulling through a filter (constant draw off the room) and fuck me if it didn't seem to get worse.

A wise man said to me, go get bottled gas you fucking idiot, and I did (I actually had a bottle and reg I just had to track it down) that next run life was good again.

I'm not really saying your going through the exact same thing I did, I haven't seen pictures of yours and even if I did I am not familiar with the rhythms and norms of your garden. I can just tell you from my own garden, general health just got really a lot lower. Everything was harder, and the most unforgivable sin in my opinion was hat stuff would just degrease over night if anything slipped out of whack. Unfortunately I was changing so many it was hard to notice at first.

Fuck it. Im done with burner till i get further information.

But still curious now that you are using bottled, how often if any air exchanges are you doing?

 

[Mikell]

I would confirm or disprove the presence of ethylene. If money isn't much an issue, an air sample can be taken and sent to a lab. I believe it is under a 100 dollars.

Other wise, you could use a plant as a coal mine canary (re:the CES contains a list of potential indicator plants, the ppm/ppb threshold and symptoms).

 

[theother]

Fuck it. Im done with burner till i get further information.

But still curious now that you are using bottled, how often if any air exchanges are you doing?

none, I don't find them necessary. A wise man also said to me "don't pay to condition the air and then pump it out you fucking idiot." LOL, I might go back to it when it gets hot. What I was doing was pulling off the bloom room in the dark cycle and pumping it into veg when it was hottest. Worked quite well considering how hot it was. In fact, i will definitely go back to that when it makes sense again. didn't see any need to vent for the sake of venting however.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

I would confirm or disprove the presence of ethylene. If money isn't much an issue, an air sample can be taken and sent to a lab. I believe it is under a 100 dollars.

Other wise, you could use a plant as a coal mine canary (re:the CES contains a list of potential indicator plants, the ppm/ppb threshold and symptoms).

I really the idea of doing an air test. I just want to know if that is the case. But im thinking about pulling the damn thing now and using bottles until i know. Ill have to look into the time frame for getting the test tubes and if i really wanna wait that long. At this point i am desperate for some kind of improvement. Whether running co2 bottles and not venting my room or using my burner and exchanging the air day and night.

Ill call my local nurseries and see if i can find a coal mine canary.

Also Mikell, from the comments you have made it sounds like you DO use a burner in a sealed room? You just exchange the air periodically? This is working well for you? Please explain more.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

none, I don't find them necessary. A wise man also said to me "don't pay to condition the air and then pump it out you fucking idiot." LOL, I might go back to it when it gets hot. What I was doing was pulling off the bloom room in the dark cycle and pumping it into veg when it was hottest. Worked quite well considering how hot it was. In fact, i will definitely go back to that when it makes sense again. didn't see any need to vent for the sake of venting however.

I completely agree that i dont want to lose co2, potentially effect my rooms environmental state(RH, temps) by exchanging with fresh outside air. But what i am worried about would running into an anaerobic environment again.

Are we now saying if its hypothetically not an ethylene problem that the burners flames themselves were diminishing the oxygen that the plants were creating bring the rooms oxygen levels below 20%?

I can tell you without a doubt my oxygen levels were low even though in theory i was expecting my plants to be making it. Just being in the room at 80 degrees you would begin to feel short of breath. Walk out the grow and i feel better. I just don't know exactly why it was becoming anaerobic.

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

THis does not make a difference. All plant roots need oxygen and all rooms need oxygen to keep anaerobic bacteria's from taking over.

Since you are also using a burner, maybe cutting your levels in half has reduced the amount of this ethylene byproduct i have recently learned about from the links that were posted previously in this thread. I would suggest reading them if you are using a burner, great info.

Maybe at 700 the levels are not effecting the plants as much.

Do you do air exchanges in your room?

I exchange the air at night. I do so in order to keep levels of oxygen as high as I can get without supplementing. I found that the root balls did not extend all the way to the bottom of my containers when I ran at 1200 ppm. Typically the containers fill completely with roots. Even shooting out the bottom of the drain holes.

Utilization of C02 in my opinion is for grows who can't afford to run fresh air at large volumes due to environmental issues. In essence heat and humidity.

If there's one thing I've learned growing, its only do one change at a time. I can't stress this enough. Lower the PPM and see where that gets you.

I went to Co2 for economical reasons. The cost to exchange the air at all times AND COOL is more costly in power (which I am very cognizant of) vs C02.

 

[theother]

I completely agree that i dont want to lose co2, potentially effect my rooms environmental state(RH, temps) by exchanging with fresh outside air. But what i am worried about would running into an anaerobic environment again.

Are we now saying if its hypothetically not an ethylene problem that the burners flames themselves were diminishing the oxygen that the plants were creating bring the rooms oxygen levels below 20%?

I can tell you without a doubt my oxygen levels were low even though in theory i was expecting my plants to be making it. Just being in the room at 80 degrees you would begin to feel short of breath. Walk out the grow and i feel better. I just don't know exactly why it was becoming anaerobic.

That kind of air gaspy feeling is pretty natural in my experience, it's like being at elevation being in an enriched environment. I honestly believe the problem isn't lack of oxygen, I believe it to be a byproduct of combustion. I believe that is why it got worse for me when I turned over air. I sort of suspect that at the beginning of the burn the fuel did not combust as well (again, just my suspicion). So the more times the burner came on the worse the problem got. Of course your not using a controller set to fuzzy logic are you? Ît doesn't seem like you would be, but if you are definitely set it to non fuzzy.

What happens when you just open up the intake and exhaust? Do you see a visible difference in the plants? I never saw much change mid bloom but earlier around flip if I turned the intakes on, I would see an improvements I. THE plants over night.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

That kind of air gaspy feeling is pretty natural in my experience, it's like being at elevation being in an enriched environment. I honestly believe the problem isn't lack of oxygen, I believe it to be a byproduct of combustion. I believe that is why it got worse for me when I turned over air. I sort of suspect that at the beginning of the burn the fuel did not combust as well (again, just my suspicion). So the more times the burner came on the worse the problem got. Of course your not using a controller set to fuzzy logic are you? Ît doesn't seem like you would be, but if you are definitely set it to non fuzzy.

What happens when you just open up the intake and exhaust? Do you see a visible difference in the plants? I never saw much change mid bloom but earlier around flip if I turned the intakes on, I would see an improvements I. THE plants over night.

I dont think that it should feel like im short on breath, lighthead, un easy feeling. At the warehouse grow where we use liquid it does not feel that way.

So far i have not seen any improvements since installing the exaust a few days ago. Today is 2 weeks into flower so its kinda hard to tell. Just for a trial i am going to finish this round out using the burner and exchanging with fresh air periodically(4 complete air exchanges an hour). All i am looking for is an improvement in trich production. I should be able to see something.

Ill keep it updated to what i see. I am also going to try and do an air sample. I think its worth it.

 

[pezthetoker]

I'm with jay as far as lowering co2 ppm goes. Try under 1000 and then it won't be so high at lights out. Find spurrs old post the truth about co2 and see what you think. That thread also discusses ethylene.

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

So stayed up late last night reading the thread that Spurr posted before about co2 levels, ethylene and co2 and night. WOW, great information. I feel dumb for not looking into this sooner. Its sad that i am just now realizing that my grow books are completely outdated and lacking the most important information on this topic. Ethylene is not mentioned once in any of the books i have. Sighs, one shouldn't have to dig this deep for this kind of information IMO.

Thanks for all the information guys, ill keep everyone updated to my findings.

 

[Avinash.miles]

So stayed up late last night reading the thread that Spurr posted before about co2 levels, ethylene and co2 and night. WOW, great information. I feel dumb for not looking into this sooner. Its sad that i am just now realizing that my grow books are completely outdated and lacking the most important information on this topic. Ethylene is not mentioned once in any of the books i have. Sighs, one shouldn't have to dig this deep for this kind of information IMO.

Thanks for all the information guys, ill keep everyone updated to my findings.

post a link here to the spurr thread u r referring to please.

glad u seem to have made a breakthru!

 

[TrichCrazy5280]

post a link here to the spurr thread u r referring to please.

glad u seem to have made a breakthru!

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=221893&highlight=night

Def getting some questions answered, only time will tell. Hopefully sooner then later. Got your PM but cant reply yet i dont think.

 

[TheyCallMeJJay]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=221893&highlight=night

Def getting some questions answered, only time will tell. Hopefully sooner then later. Got your PM but cant reply yet i dont think.

Nice. Looks like Spurr came to the same conclusion as me. Specifically with root growth within the container at high levels of Co2.

I probably took it to the extreme in regards to lowering the ppm. But I really like the results, and It's definitely passing the eye test.

 

[queequeg152]

you can use ethylene sensitive plants as a sort of canary in the ethylene coal mine.
its done alot in fancy floraculture greenhouses. a tomato plant from what i recall reading, is a good ethylene sensitive plant.

i wrote a paper on ethylene feed stocks and polymerization way back for a chemistry course.

very little ethylene will be produced by methane itself, but natural gas also contains ethane which can be cracked yielding ethylene and diatomic hydrogen.

propane can also yield ethylene via pentene. basically the longer the hydrocarbon chain the easier it gets to crack into smaller chunks, ethylene being one of them.

thing is ethylene is hella flamable and way reactive. just adding a catalytic stage to the heaters will get rid of like virtually all of it.
i would be surprised if nobody sells a heater with a catalytic stage already, no clue what such a thing would cost.

 

[Mikell]

post a link here to the spurr thread u r referring to please.

glad u seem to have made a breakthru!

I have no idea why that post is not a sticky, perhaps someone butt hurt by Spurr in the past.

I really the idea of doing an air test. I just want to know if that is the case. But im thinking about pulling the damn thing now and using bottles until i know. Ill have to look into the time frame for getting the test tubes and if i really wanna wait that long. At this point i am desperate for some kind of improvement. Whether running co2 bottles and not venting my room or using my burner and exchanging the air day and night.

Ill call my local nurseries and see if i can find a coal mine canary.

Also Mikell, from the comments you have made it sounds like you DO use a burner in a sealed room? You just exchange the air periodically? This is working well for you? Please explain more.

To clarify, we/I have used burners in the past. This year has been the year of "Vegging mums in the smallest space possible" and smoking other peoples overfed, underflushed garbage. Mommy wow, I'm a grower now...

Anyway

It was the first time implementing CO2 for the lead grower I was partnered with, and there were many pitfalls. I do not have a great amount of experience with CO2, but did run in to just about every problem one could have and found an adequate solution.

We used burners in two 40x20's (10 or 12-head burner) and two 20x20 (4-head burner). No problems in veg (one 20x20, other veg was all intake/outtake), but the burner was only maintaining slightly elevated PPM. The one 20x20 flower room was entered enough (open door air exchange) to make any results moot.

In the large rooms, we set up for completely sealed environments. The gasfitter/HVAC (and grower) advised against, and we installed passive intake and forced outtake, timed to one air exchange every 2 hours, to dump CO2 at lights out (as per Spurr et al.) and remove the humidity spike.

Bad idea, without large passive intakes requiring constant air exchange. Negative pressure wreaked havoc on the burners until the intake was quickly converted to forced air to narrow the intake/outtake gap.

This worked great and was left as is, flower development and harvest were on point. Nothing about the situation was ideal, we ran headlong in to every type of failure (re: environmental control, and to be honest, almost every other aspect) and found little resources online to explain anything, and even less from the locals.

We looked at bottled as a solution to remove all the band-aids, but 50lb tanks were all to be had and it was assumed we would be changing tanks too frequently. There is little to no information comparing the two systems (or at least, little of value was found) re: calculating tank life, the cost of either setup, etc.

From incomplete information and less experience, I now favour bottled. Less heat, less humidity, more control (can be injected directly in to HVAC supply line) and the potential for use as clean, chemical free pest control. If I ever set up another room with burners, I would never use larger than 4-6 head. Concentrating that much heat in one area was a bad idea, but you can mitigate with increased air flow. As well, I would calculate oxygen requirements of the burner to minimize waste, but these problems are for another day.

Not sure if this is that helpful, but it is long and rambly.

 

[theother]

you can use ethylene sensitive plants as a sort of canary in the ethylene coal mine.
its done alot in fancy floraculture greenhouses. a tomato plant from what i recall reading, is a good ethylene sensitive plant.

i wrote a paper on ethylene feed stocks and polymerization way back for a chemistry course.

very little ethylene will be produced by methane itself, but natural gas also contains ethane which can be cracked yielding ethylene and diatomic hydrogen.

propane can also yield ethylene via pentene. basically the longer the hydrocarbon chain the easier it gets to crack into smaller chunks, ethylene being one of them.

thing is ethylene is hella flamable and way reactive. just adding a catalytic stage to the heaters will get rid of like virtually all of it.
i would be surprised if nobody sells a heater with a catalytic stage already, no clue what such a thing would cost.

I have seen a few new genrators coming out, one I believe had a cstslytic stage, the other was infrared, which I suspect would do the same thing. I'll find links when I get home, before i gave up on burners I was looking into them,