Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

gonna be able to submit samples this week for assays on another unrelated issue im seeing.
im calling around to see if i can get a dud sample ready from anyone before i meet up with the lab person. im definately going to present the issue to them and see about their ability to test for phytoplasma when im talking to them. if you are in the pnw and have a dud you want tested shoot a pm to me.

 

[xxxstr8edgexxx]

You can start a thread about it if you find it so fascinating.
Wasn't my intention, even though it's not off topic.

no disrespect intended. i just didnt want to see this thread stray too far from the already broad topic by nature it already inherently is going to have to take until it is solidly identified . you stated as much in your post and sorry if i came off dickish. wasnt trying to dis you.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

just for the record? i have watched the feds spew botrytis from airplanes like they were fertilizing fields of cabbage,, but thats another thread..

Yes it should be a different thread, one thing is for sure they did not create all the problems that are making duds, way to many different problems behind duds.
I think it is just a distraction for this thread, which is to find the pathogens or pests causing duds, if it is weaponized Botrytris, or Fusarium that can be determined pretty easy when they ID, isolate and culture the pathogen. While I have no doubt the government did research on this, I have real doubts this is our real problems.
Tom, your eyes are pretty good if you can tell what a plane is spraying...... Where and when was that exactly? Are you absolutely sure that is what was going on? What proof if any? How could you tell it was Botrytis and not fusarium, or some other herbicide spray?

http://www.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/jiha6101.html

John was the one that spilled the beans on the feds plans to attempt this.

Aerial spraying of glyphosate herbicide, one of the most controversial methods of coca eradication, has taken place in Colombia exclusively because of that government's willingness to cooperate with the United States in the militarized eradication of coca after signing Plan Colombia in 2000. In fact, Colombia is the only country in the world that permits aerial-spraying of drug producing crops and that was stopped in 2003.

In addition, the U.S. has also been involved in the development of the fungus Fusarium oxysporum to wipe out coca.[4][5] In 2000, the Congress of the United States approved use of Fusarium as a biological control agent to kill coca crops in Colombia (and another fungus to kill opium poppies in Afghanistan), but these plans were canceled by then-President Clinton, who was concerned that the unilateral use of a biological agent would be perceived by the rest of the world as biological warfare. The Andean nations have since banned its use throughout the region. (The use of biological agents to kill crops may be illegal under the Biological Weapons Convention of 1975.)

http://www.alternet.org/story/15331/the_temptation_of_dr._weed

http://www.yourlawyer.com/topics/overview/fusarium_fungus

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/27/us/a-fungus-to-kill-marijuana-has-environmentalists-wary.html

For the record using Fungus as a control on Cannabis has not been done in anything besides tests as far as I know, and it was going to be done with fusarium not botrytis as TomHill says he saw.
(see below)
I have my doubts.....

Here is some more info I found:

David Sands, a professor in Montana, released Fusarium oxysporum f. sp. cannabis in a field trial against wild hemp in Kazakhstan (Anonymous 1994), and a research associate of his released it in Beltsville Maryland against a handful of test plants (Sands 1991). Last but not least, Sands collaborated with Mahmoud ElSohly, who stupidly tested the fungus in Oxford, Mississippi (Sands et al., 1987).
As far as I know, that's as far as it got.
For more see Sands et al., 1987, 2002, 2004, Semencheko et al., 1995, Tiourebaev et al., 2001.

Fusarium oxysporum*f. sp.*cannabis*is supposedly restricted to Cannabis, which is why it's been tested as a biocontrol weapon.
Botrytis cinerea is a fungus that attacks over 200 plant species, including wine grapes and many other crops. Spraying it would be absurd.
A committee appointed by the U.S. National Academy recently questioned the use of biocontrol fungi to combat illicit drug crops, due to a lack of quality, in-depth research (National Research Council 2011).
Anonymous. 1994. Alma Ata fusaria pathogenicity testing in Cannabis sativa. USDA report, May, 1994. Document released under FOIA to Jeremy Bigwood.
Sands DC. 1991. Interim report: Cannabis sativus. January/February Report, Cooperative Agreement 58-3K47-9-036. Boseman, Montana.
Sands DS, Kennet G, Knox-Zidack N, Miller RV, Ford E. 1987. Demonstration of potential biocontrol agents against Cannabis. Department of Plant Pathology, Montana State University, Bozeman, MT.
Sands DS, Tiourebaev KS, Pilgeram AL, Anderson TW. 2002. Carrier methodology for aerial dispersal and soil penetration of bioactive agents. U.S. Patent No. 6,403,530.*Sands DS, Pilgeram AL, Anderson TW, Tiourebaev KS. 2004. Virulence enhancement of bioherbicides. U.S. Patent No. 6,673,746.
Semenchenko GV, Tiourebaev KS, Dolgovskaya M, Schultz MT, McCarthy MK, Sands DC. 1995. Phytopathogenic*Fusarium*strains in biological control of*Cannabis sativa.*Phytopathology*85: 1200.
Tiourebaev KS, Semenchenko GV, Dolgovskaya M, McCarthy MK,*Anderson TW,*Carsten LD,*Pilgeram AL,*Sands DC. 2001. Biological control of infestations of ditchweed (Cannabis sativa) with*Fusarium oxysporum*f.sp.*cannabis*in Kazakhstan.*Biocontrol Science and Technology*11: 535-540.

Tom, if you think they were making a Botrytis to control drug plants can you find any published info about the work to develop the control, or to use it anywhere, anytime? Even just a test? Or even just the idea?
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Re: Purple Kush-The +- means "borderline" positive.
Don't know exactly what that means.
To make it work, more people need to get their samples tested, ie., people with "duds" need to send them in and specify the tests you want performed.

I did confirm the Davis lab you listed does Cannabis pathogen testing, the folks were super nice.
We need to have a list of Cannabis pathogens listed by catagories, species and by priority so we can get the labs that will test for pests or pathogens to do all the tests that will help the most.
see my post #574 in this thread.
1. Insects and Mites and nematodes
2. Fungal diseases
3. Bacterial diseases
4. Other Cannabis Pests and Pathogens
5. Abiotic Diseases
To me this is revolutionary, it could help change the way things are.

Thanks RetroGrow,
Your help has been really important to help get to the bottom of this dud phenomenon.
If any other labs are doing Cannabis pathogens and pest testing we need to know who and where, I know it could be done in Colorado and Washington, maybe elsewhere?
-SamS

 

[high life 45]

I have some dead dry dud material str8edge. Pm me if that can be tested.

I have two of the biggest plants I have ever grown indoors flowering wonderfully in a room that recirculates air from the same room as the dudded plants. Unless gg4 is especially sensitive I'm gonna go ahead and remove bms as the cause of duds in my circumstance. None of my other strains have exhibited any strange growth...

Sam while your here can you possibly enlighten me to some of the physical features found on the underside of fan/water leafs? I have been steadily scoping leaves and it appears that small resin like glands are on the underside of leaves. They do not appear to be bm eggs which I have seen my fair share of. I have talked with other members and growers irl and they also have seen these somewhat egg looking protrusions on the under side of the leaf. Are these sessile glands? Perhaps you could take a picture of the underside of a leaf and post it up in this thread? Any sort of taxonomic description would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have some dead dry dud material str8edge. Pm me if that can be tested.

I have two of the biggest plants I have ever grown indoors flowering wonderfully in a room that recirculates air from the same room as the dudded plants. Unless gg4 is especially sensitive I'm gonna go ahead and remove bms as the cause of duds in my circumstance. None of my other strains have exhibited any strange growth...

Sam while your here can you possibly enlighten me to some of the physical features found on the underside of fan/water leafs? I have been steadily scoping leaves and it appears that small resin like glands are on the underside of leaves. They do not appear to be bm eggs which I have seen my fair share of. I have talked with other members and growers irl and they also have seen these somewhat egg looking protrusions on the under side of the leaf. Are these sessile glands? Perhaps you could take a picture of the underside of a leaf and post it up in this thread? Any sort of taxonomic description would be greatly appreciated.

I do not have a camera with a macro lens just a cheap digital camera. If you could post a picture of what it is you are talking about, maybe I or someone can help you. You can contact the lab and ask them what they need to test for which pathogens. I do not know.
-SamS

 

[high life 45]

Sam skunkman, sounds like we both need usb microscopes lol. I was sure you would have one..I can see these things with a handheld 60x but I have noticed that I have microscope like eyes compared to other folks. I will see if I can round up a USB micrscope this harvest.

 

[BlackBuds]

Viral Diseases in Cannabis

There are 4 known viruses that cause serious mosaic symptoms and dwarfing.
They are:
TRSV (Tobacco ringspot)
TomRSV (tomato ringspot)
TSV (tobacco streak)
CMV (cucumber mosaic)

2 viruses that cause mosaic symptoms without dwarfing:
ERSV (eunoymous ringspot)
AMV (alfalfa mosaic)

Viruses affect all parts of the plant including seeds and pollen.

Insects spread viruses

The worst vectors are:
Bhang aphid (Phorodon cannabis)
Green peach aphid (Myzus persicae)
Greenhouse Whitefly (Trialeudodes vaporariorum)
Onion thrips (Thrips tabaci)

Contaminated hand tools spread viruses. Skim milk will inactivate most plant viruses. 100 grams skim milk powder per 1g water is recommended. Dip hand tools in solution in order to stop mechanical spread.

 

[GrassMan]

If any other labs are doing Cannabis pathogens and pest testing we need to know who and where, I know it could be done in Colorado and Washington, maybe elsewhere?
-SamS

Hi,

I suppose to get results from a couple of samples I sent last week.
I ask for Microbial and fungal analysis according to American Herbal Pharmacopoeia "Cannabis inflorescence", which are:

- Total viable aerobic bacteria
- Total yeast and mold
- Total coliforms
- Bile-tolerant gram-negative bacteria
- E.coli (pathogenic strains)
- Salmonella spp.

The samples were sent to http://www.microb.co.il/index_en.php, here in Israel.

Peace.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Hi,

I suppose to get results from a couple of samples I sent last week.
I ask for Microbial and fungal analysis according to American Herbal Pharmacopoeia "Cannabis inflorescence", which are:

- Total viable aerobic bacteria
- Total yeast and mold
- Total coliforms
- Bile-tolerant gram-negative bacteria
- E.coli (pathogenic strains)
- Salmonella spp.

The samples were sent to http://www.microb.co.il/index_en.php, here in Israel.

Peace.

This is for dried Cannabis? Nice but this is about a growing plant problem.
You need to find a lab that does testing of living plant materials like for Viruses, fungal pathogens, Bacterial pathogens, and insects, mite, and nematode pests. Look at post #574. And post #23, Do they also test for these?
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Viral Diseases in Cannabis

There are 4 known viruses that cause serious mosaic symptoms and dwarfing.
They are:
TRSV (Tobacco ringspot)
TomRSV (tomato ringspot)
TSV (tobacco streak)
CMV (cucumber mosaic)

2 viruses that cause mosaic symptoms without dwarfing:
ERSV (eunoymous ringspot)
AMV (alfalfa mosaic)

Viruses affect all parts of the plant including seeds and pollen.

Insects spread viruses

The worst vectors are:
Bhang aphid (Phorodon cannabis)
Green peach aphid (Myzus persicae)
Greenhouse Whitefly (Trialeudodes vaporariorum)
Onion thrips (Thrips tabaci)

Contaminated hand tools spread viruses. Skim milk will inactivate most plant viruses. 100 grams skim milk powder per 1g water is recommended. Dip hand tools in solution in order to stop mechanical spread.

Lots more of viruses that infect Cannabis are listed in post #23.
I bet you got your info from the book Diseases and Pests of Hemp?
Great book,
-SamS

 

[Storm Shadow]

More people need to step up and share their DUD photos... Not nearly enough pics of different genetics with the problem...

Don't be scared people... we all know a lot of you u want to sell seeds and are scared of losing faith in customers...but for real... no pics... too much speculation..

You have to experience this problem to understand the symptoms...being a certified arm chair expert and just re-posting info from another forum and having zero exp of ever even growing those genetics is laughable ...

What don't you some of you get? Weak ass Branches that snap when u sneeze... slowly infecting branches or even only 1 nug at a time while the rest of the plant is healthy???

PHYTOPLASMA<<<<< sorry man this is 2014.. all respect to the old school cats... but I'll trust my body of skills over pure speculation... PHOTOS post them up!

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

More people need to step up and share their DUD photos... Not nearly enough pics of different genetics with the problem...

Don't be scared people... we all know a lot of you u want to sell seeds and are scared of losing faith in customers...but for real... no pics... too much speculation..

You have to experience this problem to understand the symptoms...being a certified arm chair expert and just re-posting info from another forum and having zero exp of ever even growing those genetics is laughable ...

What don't you some of you get? Weak ass Branches that snap when u sneeze... slowly infecting branches or even only 1 nug at a time while the rest of the plant is healthy???

PHYTOPLASMA<<<<< sorry man this is 2014.. all respect to the old school cats... but I'll trust my body of skills over pure speculation... PHOTOS post them up!

With all respects to the young kittens re-posting info about non-Cannabis pathogens, Dud photos are nice, but what is really needed is a way to confirm by testing if the plant has specific pathogens or pests, maybe even more then one.
Just reposting info, or cut and paste science articles from another site or forum and having zero ability to confirm the ID of the pathogen is laughable.
Sorry man this is 2014, and I will trust a lab that ID's a pathogen over most peoples "body of skills" unless they have been published on the subject.
Don't you think so?
Old school, and proud of it,
-SamS
PS
I do not have photos as I have not had dud's, I have grown millions of plants and if I had any duds I just tossed them and that was that, I also grow almost everything from seed, or my own 25 year old clones, maybe that is part of the reason I have been so lucky?
No problem, I just want to help and I am curious about the issues, maybe just maybe, it is more then just one Bacterial pathogen making duds? I am sure of it, BM, Viruses, fungal, Bacterial, other pests, nematodes, I bet all may be involved in what people are calling Dud's. The answer is to lab test the plants for pathogens, not assume your "body of skills" knows all the answers.
-SamS

 

[Storm Shadow]

You just have to understand... Broad Mites became a problem with Progressive Options.. SoCal is the epicenter of this problem...its very evident in OG Kush lines... guess who told Progressive Options about their Problem in the first place? Hint Hint

So Im just saying some of us are knee high on the frontline of the battle while others speculate on the sidelines..

If you've never grown OG Kush.... then no way you understand DUD the way you should..

 

[Storm Shadow]

I have seen many many genetics DUD over the last few years and have grown at many locations indoor/outdoor... warehouses and ranches.. 2014 era.. genetics from P.O. and etc

I also grow Landrace Genetics from IRAN... only person in the Western Hemisphere doing it like that.... not even your boy Robert Clarke has ever documented anything cannabis related from one of the birth places of the plant.. so you can save kitten talk for your other people

we are both grown ass men aka adults.. you either respect my exp or don't... but I wont listen to Bill Russell over Michael Jordan any day of the year if I want to understand

TODAYS GAME

 

[Storm Shadow]

This product can reduce your DUD problem significantly ... as a matter of fact...according to all the new data/research... Antibiotics are the only reliable chance at fighting PYHTOPLASMAS

http://ws.greenbook.net/Docs/Label/L76376.PDF

Here is some for food for thought Im sure everyone has already thought of ...

A very skilled grower on this site named "SNYPE" .. I don't know the answer...but Im willing to bet anything that the man has never exp DUDS ever! reason why? Pure genius , the man uses very mellow antibiotics during his cloning process and kills anything pathogen that can cause issues...he was the first dude Ive seen on here to use that technique..

guess what everyone...it actually works!

Rotate products use this one also

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld315002.pdf

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I just want to understand, BM are the only problem behind Dud's?
Then why do you keep posting about PHYTOPLASMA in a Dud ID collective knowledge thread?
You are right that I have never grown OG Kush, so what does that mean? Maybe that I just don't like the OG Kushes? I can grow what ever I want, I have access to almost everything, all the time. People have offered me the OG Kush clones many times I just said no thanks after smoking the herb, it really is not my kind of taste or high.
I am a fast learner, anything about Cannabis I have been interested in all my life, pests and pathogens are right up on the top of my interests. I have personally seen hundreds of Cannabis pests and pathogens, and will continue to find more. Old School Cats like me and Rob Clarke and John McPartland have been at this for decades we do not just speculate, John has dozens of publications in peer reviewed science journals where he names new Cannabis pest and pathogen species and renames the old ones named by mistake by older researchers in the past. I would think you knew that?
-SamS

 

[whatthe215]

Doesn't Snype just use the antibiotic in order to clean his EZ Cloners for 6 days? He said he doesn't use it on clones at all because he doesn't want the antibiotics ending up in his finished flowers.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have seen many many genetics DUD over the last few years and have grown at many locations indoor/outdoor... warehouses and ranches.. 2014 era.. genetics from P.O. and etc

I also grow Landrace Genetics from IRAN... only person in the Western Hemisphere doing it like that.... not even your boy Robert Clarke has ever documented anything cannabis related from one of the birth places of the plant.. so you can save kitten talk for your other people

we are both grown ass men aka adults.. you either respect my exp or don't... but I wont listen to Bill Russell over Michael Jordan any day of the year if I want to understand

TODAYS GAME

I have had Iranian genetics since the early 1970's when I collected them in person in Iran. I grew them in California and Holland in the early 80's.
How many years have you had Iranian genetics? Where did you get them?
So did your "Body of Skills" tell you about Iran being one of the birth places of Cannabis? Interesting! I know ancient Iran had a cannabis culture, long gone now but this is the very first I have heard that Cannabis originated there. Rob did mention Iran and Shiek Haidar and the also the Hashishins in his book Hashish, but just a half dozen pages, he also says the Cannabis culture was very early there, but not that Cannabis originates for Iran. I am sure it did not. Rob also mentions Persia, Iran and Cannabis in his new book "Cannabis Evolution and Ethnobotany" But you have the right to believe what you like.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

This product can reduce your DUD problem significantly ... as a matter of fact...according to all the new data/research... Antibiotics are the only reliable chance at fighting PYHTOPLASMAS

http://ws.greenbook.net/Docs/Label/L76376.PDF

Here is some for food for thought Im sure everyone has already thought of ...

A very skilled grower on this site named "SNYPE" .. I don't know the answer...but Im willing to bet anything that the man has never exp DUDS ever! reason why? Pure genius , the man uses very mellow antibiotics during his cloning process and kills anything pathogen that can cause issues...he was the first dude Ive seen on here to use that technique..

guess what everyone...it actually works!

Rotate products use this one also

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld315002.pdf

Antibiotics do not work against viruses, so I hope not a single dud is ever caused by Viruses? But to be honest it is a wast of time debating you, your mind is made up and too full to accept anything more I suspect. So be it. I do not believe in easy solutions to complex problems, I do understand the need for them by some.
Curious when you found BM did you also think that was the only cause until you found PHYTOPLASMA's?

-SamS