Ducksfoot and mutant genetics

[Thule]

Some Kalyseeds Strains Photos i found the stranger looking ones (but i tried to take fair shots of floweringphase, aswell as exclude the Albino ones, cause it frames the Look to much, but those were actually the strangest ones)

Impa Ruderalis:

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Pintura Ruderalis:

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Swag:
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Acording to Se_dfi_nder those Strains all contain a certain Amount of Hops.

They are all ducksfoot hybrids.

 

[romanoweed]

ok. i didnt want to claim anything with it. The Lineage on Se_dfi_nder said hops cross. Thats just an Info, not my claim

 

[The HashMan]

They are all ducksfoot hybrids.

Where did ducksfoot originate besides wally duck?

 

[Thule]

Where did ducksfoot originate besides wally duck?

I have no idea.

 

[Benny106]

Pretty sure i remember seeing pics on og.

 

[Donald Mallard]

Where did ducksfoot originate besides wally duck?

sam told me he saw the webbed leaf trait when he first starting selfing cannabis ,
it was also spotted in hawaii and australia in the 90s sometime ,



i didnt find it myself until very early 2000 ,
its not a particular strain , its just a mutation that can happen with cannabis , not one strain specifically....



i didnt make it ,i found it in some seed and i just made it breed true to type ...

 

[The HashMan]

sam told me he saw the webbed leaf trait when he first starting selfing cannabis ,
it was also spotted in hawaii and australia in the 90s sometime ,



i didnt find it myself until very early 2000 ,
its not a particular strain , its just a mutation that can happen with cannabis , not one strain specifically....



i didnt make it ,i found it in some seed and i just made it breed true to type ...

I was working with one of my friends not to long ago he's biochemist studying cannabis mutations, we have a mutual friend in Queensland that was claiming duckfoot has been floating around there since the early 70s, he mentioned it could be a abc hybrid, not quite sure how authentic the info is, I'm more of a see it to believe person, but it would be interesting to figure out if the trait came about from environmental conditioning or not.

 

[romanoweed]

i once saw a mutated vietnamese Line very much the same like the ABC.

(dreaming again) could be that it really happens more often if a strain gets from hotter to colder climate. Many tropical Strains were exported to Australia and then grown in Australia.. wich i guess is colder than the tropics. not freezing cold, but colder. That is by no means a pattern discovered, but possibly?

(i have to add, all i google is vietnamese,thai, cambodian, so could happend anywhere else, but i saw a ABC style vietnamese.)

 

[TheDarkStorm]

sam told me he saw the webbed leaf trait when he first starting selfing cannabis ,
it was also spotted in hawaii and australia in the 90s sometime ,



i didnt find it myself until very early 2000 ,
its not a particular strain , its just a mutation that can happen with cannabis , not one strain specifically....



i didnt make it ,i found it in some seed and i just made it breed true to type ...

Sams right donald....I through multiple selfings have seen some very strange things.....ive also seen some strange things coming from highly inbred lines that are then heavily stressed or attacked by pests but survive and go on to flower but in a bad state...then a stiuations were cuttings are then taken from these flowering plants, leading to what they called a monster cropped clones....an ive seen alsorts of strange things pop up from this point....its like certain genes are switching on and off causing then some very strange looking plants...ive seen strange leafe shapes from these types and heavily selfed lines...strange bud structures....strange behaviors...some times the mutations are so bad that the plant looks and behaves no were near that of a cannabis plant.....a simple example of things like this that most people have seen showing you you a tiny example of whats possible is how mutated some plants look wen reveging.

 

[Donald Mallard]

I was working with one of my friends not to long ago he's biochemist studying cannabis mutations, we have a mutual friend in Queensland that was claiming duckfoot has been floating around there since the early 70s, he mentioned it could be a abc hybrid, not quite sure how authentic the info is, I'm more of a see it to believe person, but it would be interesting to figure out if the trait came about from environmental conditioning or not.

there could be some truth to that hashman,
i am in queensland ,
i know we had an influx of hawaiin genetics some time ago and i considered it may have come along with that ,
perhaps an earlier ancestor had this trait ,
one would assume from a cold climate given the fat leaf ,
hotter climates would tend to lean toward thinner leaf to dissipate the heat i would imagine ..

i once saw a mutated vietnamese Line very much the same like the ABC.

(dreaming again) could be that it really happens more often if a strain gets from hotter to colder climate. Many tropical Strains were exported to Australia and then grown in Australia.. wich i guess is colder than the tropics. not freezing cold, but colder. That is by no means a pattern discovered, but possibly?

(i have to add, all i google is vietnamese,thai, cambodian, so could happend anywhere else, but i saw a ABC style vietnamese.)

certainly i would agree it has come from some imported herb , as i said possibly from Hawaii , though of course im not sure and only taking a guess ,
i live in Australia roman , its quite tropical from about half way up to the top , where i live its the same latitude as where the bulk of the thai stick weed was grown in Thailand ,
other than some rainy parts , its a great climate for growing cannabis ..

Sams right donald....I through multiple selfings have seen some very strange things.....ive also seen some strange things coming from highly inbred lines that are then heavily stressed or attacked by pests but survive and go on to flower but in a bad state...then a stiuations were cuttings are then taken from these flowering plants, leading to what they called a monster cropped clones....an ive seen alsorts of strange things pop up from this point....its like certain genes are switching on and off causing then some very strange looking plants...ive seen strange leafe shapes from these types and heavily selfed lines...strange bud structures....strange behaviors...some times the mutations are so bad that the plant looks and behaves no were near that of a cannabis plant.....a simple example of things like this that most people have seen showing you you a tiny example of whats possible is how mutated some plants look wen reveging.

you think its a response to stress and environmental conditions darkie??

i guess its possible , though im leaning more towards it being an ancient ancestor that we have not seen much of until reasonably recently ,
why it appeared , i dont know , i guess as you say heavy inbreeding may have resulted in its appearance ...

 

[TheDarkStorm]

there could be some truth to that hashman,
i am in queensland ,
i know we had an influx of hawaiin genetics some time ago and i considered it may have come along with that ,
perhaps an earlier ancestor had this trait ,
one would assume from a cold climate given the fat leaf ,
hotter climates would tend to lean toward thinner leaf to dissipate the heat i would imagine ..



certainly i would agree it has come from some imported herb , as i said possibly from Hawaii , though of course im not sure and only taking a guess ,
i live in Australia roman , its quite tropical from about half way up to the top , where i live its the same latitude as where the bulk of the thai stick weed was grown in Thailand ,
other than some rainy parts , its a great climate for growing cannabis ..


you think its a response to stress and environmental conditions darkie??

i guess its possible , though im leaning more towards it being an ancient ancestor that we have not seen much of until reasonably recently ,
why it appeared , i dont know , i guess as you say heavy inbreeding may have resulted in its appearance ...

I wouldn't say stress so much donald...but more so situations were the genetics are put in a situation there becoming jumbled up and certain things are switching on and off were they normally dont....sam may be able to go into this more as he's probably looked at this through a more scientific angle than I have.....but say another example...ive seen some plants taken to s4-5 were in ther make up and history theres been multiple selfing and reversing going on...and some of the plants coming out can display some very odd behaviour and can come out with some weird mutations.

 

[The HashMan]

Is sam still active on here? I would love to get more info on this topic. I'm also wondering how many times you can self a plant.

 

[romanoweed]

Well, inbreeding depression is suspected to cause mutations.
If its the only thing that causes it, i dont know.

Blueberry, everyone says Blueberry is depressed, and, voila shows mutations such as Albino (vanilluna pheno), but i recall also other leavedeformations.

I think with heavy selving youre creating inbreeding depro the fastest if you want that.

---
I also heard that when doing wrong selections in the wrong direction the inbreeding depro arises only then. But allow me to put this last claim into question, alltho it might make sense, if you select thowards something that is not defining the strain, then you select for the nothing (phyosophically spoken)

Another person who is knowladgable breeder seemed to see Mutations as a regular thing. Im not hure if i got it right, but he mentioned mutations, like its daily part of breeding. So, as i understood it, everything is mutating in every selection somehow, sometimes just very viible like a ducksfoot.

I hope i did not confuse, im very unshure about what i said in this very post here

 

[The HashMan]

bump

 

[djonkoman]

Another person who is knowladgable breeder seemed to see Mutations as a regular thing. Im not hure if i got it right, but he mentioned mutations, like its daily part of breeding. So, as i understood it, everything is mutating in every selection somehow, sometimes just very viible like a ducksfoot.

yes that is right.
keeping it very simple, each time a cell multiplies the dna is copied. if you imagine dna like a recipe book, you can imagine the copying sort of like how books used to be copied by monks: the copying is not a perfect process, sometimes errors are made.

however, most of those typo's have no effect at all for various reasons(for example, the location of the change is important. also, the genetic code is basically coded in triplets/'words' of 'letters', or basepairs, with 4 different possible 'letters'. however some triplets are synonymous, so you could have a change of 1 letter that still results in the same code/recipe, because the new triplet has the same 'meaning' as the old triplet). (there are btw also some other kinds of changes that are not just 1 letter switched, but that goes a bit deeper into genetics)

then, if the change does have an effect, it can still be a very subtle or invisible effect.

if however the change does result in a new meaning, and it is inside a gene which is somewhat important, you could see an effect of it.

however, most of the time such a change inside a gene that has a noticable effect would result in breaking the gene. since chromosomes come in pairs, that broken gene would get compensated by the 2nd non-broken copy, and you would not see the mutation. in other words, you'd have a recessive trait. (sometimes however the dosage matters, in that case you can see the difference between 1 working copy or 2 workin copies. but very often 1 working copy is enough for the full functioning)

in a naturally outcrossing species like weed(or humans), most of the time an individual will mate with an unrelated individual, so the chance that both parents happen to have a mutation in the same gene is pretty rare.

however, all those recessive mutations are still there, just not noticable since they are compensated by the other non-broken version. and since, as long as you keep outbreeding, they stay invisible, there's also no selection pressure to remove those mutations, so they could accumulate in the background. however it also means that inbreeding depression is a somewhat heritable trait that you can select against, since if you do inbreeding you can select against the negative mutations and basically 'clean up' those recessive mutations from the background making the line/strain more resistant against inbreeding problems.

then if you start inbreeding, those mutations that were already present in the background may become visible, since now both parents are related, so there is a chance that the child gets a broken version of the same gene from both parents.

and hybrid vigour can also be partly explained from this view, there might be broken genes present(in a fixed state, homozygous) within a strain that just have a small negative effect in vigour, not a huge deal but if you have multiple of them you'd notice reduced vigour. but then in an f1 those small effect negative mutations from both sides would be compensated by the other side of the f1 cross.

since the duckfoot leaf inherits in such a simple way, showing it as a single broken gene, my opinion is that there is no deeper meaning or purpose to this trait. just a coincidental broken gene that happens to result in a new kind of phenotype(webbed leaf).

probably in the young leaf there is some process causing programmed cell death in specific regions of the leaf while it's still in a very young stage resulting in the final shape, and the duckfoot mutation somehow breaks some part of that process causing this local cell death to fail. if you look at a webbed leaf you see all the veins etc are still 'normal', it's just that the fingers are not disconnected like in a normal leaf.

btw, speaking about the hawaii connection, that is interesting imo.

at some point years ago I stumbled upon a mention of the duckfoot trait in hemp. it was found within the hemp being grown around ferrara(italy). they gave it some complex italian name(pinnatidofolia or someting like that). some hempbreeder from either italy or germany then stabilised this trait in a breeding line and send it to an american hemp breeder(I think this was somewhere in the early 20th century already, 1930 or soo? if I remember right the american hemp breeder who received them was called 'dewey'). there the trail I could find stops, but if the duckfoot trait in drug cannabis came from hawaii, maybe there's a link there with that italian hemp.

going back before italy, the mutation might have happened within the italian hemp, but I also found that chinese hemp was introduced to italy and mixed with the existing local hemp, which resulted in better hemp, and as far as I remember I found that ferrara hemp also includes this chinese ancestry.

so there's a possibility the duckfoot leaf mutation could exist somewhere within the chinese hemp population.

edit:
found it back, this site writes it out nicely: http://cannabismutations.blogspot.com/2012/08/leaf-mutation-simple-leaves.html

 

[The HashMan]

yes that is right.
keeping it very simple, each time a cell multiplies the dna is copied. if you imagine dna like a recipe book, you can imagine the copying sort of like how books used to be copied by monks: the copying is not a perfect process, sometimes errors are made.

however, most of those typo's have no effect at all for various reasons(for example, the location of the change is important. also, the genetic code is basically coded in triplets/'words' of 'letters', or basepairs, with 4 different possible 'letters'. however some triplets are synonymous, so you could have a change of 1 letter that still results in the same code/recipe, because the new triplet has the same 'meaning' as the old triplet). (there are btw also some other kinds of changes that are not just 1 letter switched, but that goes a bit deeper into genetics)

then, if the change does have an effect, it can still be a very subtle or invisible effect.

if however the change does result in a new meaning, and it is inside a gene which is somewhat important, you could see an effect of it.

however, most of the time such a change inside a gene that has a noticable effect would result in breaking the gene. since chromosomes come in pairs, that broken gene would get compensated by the 2nd non-broken copy, and you would not see the mutation. in other words, you'd have a recessive trait. (sometimes however the dosage matters, in that case you can see the difference between 1 working copy or 2 workin copies. but very often 1 working copy is enough for the full functioning)

in a naturally outcrossing species like weed(or humans), most of the time an individual will mate with an unrelated individual, so the chance that both parents happen to have a mutation in the same gene is pretty rare.

however, all those recessive mutations are still there, just not noticable since they are compensated by the other non-broken version. and since, as long as you keep outbreeding, they stay invisible, there's also no selection pressure to remove those mutations, so they could accumulate in the background. however it also means that inbreeding depression is a somewhat heritable trait that you can select against, since if you do inbreeding you can select against the negative mutations and basically 'clean up' those recessive mutations from the background making the line/strain more resistant against inbreeding problems.

then if you start inbreeding, those mutations that were already present in the background may become visible, since now both parents are related, so there is a chance that the child gets a broken version of the same gene from both parents.

and hybrid vigour can also be partly explained from this view, there might be broken genes present(in a fixed state, homozygous) within a strain that just have a small negative effect in vigour, not a huge deal but if you have multiple of them you'd notice reduced vigour. but then in an f1 those small effect negative mutations from both sides would be compensated by the other side of the f1 cross.

since the duckfoot leaf inherits in such a simple way, showing it as a single broken gene, my opinion is that there is no deeper meaning or purpose to this trait. just a coincidental broken gene that happens to result in a new kind of phenotype(webbed leaf).

probably in the young leaf there is some process causing programmed cell death in specific regions of the leaf while it's still in a very young stage resulting in the final shape, and the duckfoot mutation somehow breaks some part of that process causing this local cell death to fail. if you look at a webbed leaf you see all the veins etc are still 'normal', it's just that the fingers are not disconnected like in a normal leaf.

btw, speaking about the hawaii connection, that is interesting imo.

at some point years ago I stumbled upon a mention of the duckfoot trait in hemp. it was found within the hemp being grown around ferrara(italy). they gave it some complex italian name(pinnatidofolia or someting like that). some hempbreeder from either italy or germany then stabilised this trait in a breeding line and send it to an american hemp breeder(I think this was somewhere in the early 20th century already, 1930 or soo? if I remember right the american hemp breeder who received them was called 'dewey'). there the trail I could find stops, but if the duckfoot trait in drug cannabis came from hawaii, maybe there's a link there with that italian hemp.

going back before italy, the mutation might have happened within the italian hemp, but I also found that chinese hemp was introduced to italy and mixed with the existing local hemp, which resulted in better hemp, and as far as I remember I found that ferrara hemp also includes this chinese ancestry.

so there's a possibility the duckfoot leaf mutation could exist somewhere within the chinese hemp population.

edit:
found it back, this site writes it out nicely: https://cannabismutations.blogspot.com/2012/08/leaf-mutation-simple-leaves.html
View Image

THANK YOU SO MUCH
this is the info i was looking for!

 

[romanoweed]

WOW
djonkoman you anwsered me 100 Questions, thanks for that Post,
will help alot for my preservation-tactics, this hyphothesis/explonation anwsers alot about inbreeding depression, (actually preservation is not the topic of thread, but mega interesting)