Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[FunkBomb]

k33ftr33z - I'd like to say a big THANK YOU for your explanation, pictures, and other wonderful documentation you've provided in this amazing thread. My last two grows have been wonderful with much larger yields because of your technique, and I am very grateful.

It's a shame the few have to ruin it for the many. If only our primate tendencies could be quelled.

-Funk

 

[TruthOrLie]

Scientific facts drawn from PERFECTLY designed experiments are not even accurate after one trial run. It takes dozens, even hundreds, or thousands of experimental trials to draw a sound conclusion - and even that can be flawed.

This is the nature of scientific research.

I can think of a very simple side by side which would not be too expensive.

Two plants, clones, same size, same medium, same containers. One oscillating fan and two CFL 42w bulbs one over each plant. Both fed the same and kept on same light schedule. One defoliated, one not. Both plants 3-4 feet apart.

This experiment could be repeated with different strains.

Flower them after one week of vegetating/solid roots.

If some people did this for the next year, you could post results and have a sound scientific ground to build on.

As it is now, its only hearsay. Techniques and results widely vary.

 

[dlively11]

This topic always gets so heated on rollitup as well. Well here is more bogus so called proof that cutting the leaves doesnt hurt but rather helps the yields. I Start doing major leaf removal at day 21 of bloom when the plant stops its stretch and doesnt really need them anymore. I remove ALL fan leaves at that point. I only do minor leaf removal the first few weeks of bloom and none during veg. I grow SOG 4 per SQ foot. With Chronic White Widow my yields average 30 grams per plant which equates to 1920 grams per light, 1.9 grams per watt or over 4 lbs. I don't use CO2 either. Other strains get me more like 20 grams per plant still a very high number. I dont know if it helps on other styles of grows but with a full SOG you have to remove leaves or you will just have one big leaf garden. I listened to other people who were getting very high yields so I migrated this direction as well. I use to grow in 7 gal pots, then 3 gal, then 2 gal then 1 gal. Then went hrdyo then increase my numbers to 64 per light. Has been by far the best results ever in my years of growing. I used to get half a gram per watt average.

I have done plenty of side by sides grows same strains same room, same lighting same mothers switched at the same size. For a tight SOG like mine the difference was flat out staggering. half gram per watt verse 1.9 on my Chronic White Widow. Other strains compared that I still remember the exact amount have been Super Skunk 10 grams compared to 20. Blue Cheese, Cheese, Blue Dream, Sweet Tooth and a few more. All were much much higher with leaf removal for my style of grow. One strain it didnt make much noticeable difference on was Casey Jones. Very few leaves on this lanky Sativa.

 

[VividDane]

First a big shout out to k33ftr33z - love how you are ready to take on everyone who seems to think they know every other aspect of cannabis. It's strange how most bashers of this technique tries to simplify cannabis down to simple math. None of us in here really knows what goes on in the plants at the hormone-level, nor the effects of defoliation to this. We can all only assume - because of this, those people who do not want to give this technique a try for themselves, can't really know if it works or not. You have to see the results for your self and remember how your plants grew before you defoliated. I've personally given up on spreading the word of this technique. I tried at a danish forum where it was very ill received. This hasn't discouraged me and I'm looking very forward to begin flowering in the next couple of days. I'm hoping for great results which I'll then pass on for further considerations from my fellow growers.

I've been applying this technique for 3-4 weeks now and startet out on one of my very large white widows. She responded very well and started growing vigorous branches. I'm using defoliation inorder to get a better use of my compact homebox grow-tent. I've also applied it to most of other plants in veg-stage, inorder to control their shape a bit better. Also the white widow took up way to much space compared to my other strains (hollands hope, northern light, skunk#1 and not least white widow). I'm aware that i do not defoliate as much as k33ftr33z would but I'm still working on my initial skills as a first time grower so I've decided to proceed carefully. The defoliation will continue all the way threw the stretch and into the flowering.

I've included a photo of my white widow before defoliation and 2 photos taken 16 days after I defoliated her for the first time.

before


after



As soon as i get them in larger pots they are ready for flowering.

- no it's not a side by side set-up for comparison. It's just a newbie, loving his new technique of controlling his plants in a confined space. A big thank you to k33ftr33z.

 

[Xare]

I just did a day 21 stripping for my Hempy SOG.


Before:

After:

 

[slowandeasy]

I just did a day 21 stripping for my Hempy SOG.


Before:

After:

Have you tried this method before? Have you ran these plants in the same set up before? Just wondering if you will know for sure if it helps you out or not.

Look at how many Coke bottles you can see after the Defol! Wait a week and take another pic. You wont be able to see them again!! Looks good bro, good luck!

 

[Xare]

Ive been running a two liter hempy sog perpetually for over a year now.

And lolly popping for most of those cycles. Been getting ~ .5 to .6 grams per watt in my setup.

This is my first time trying the 21 / 45 jrosek style sog defol.

 

[slowandeasy]

Ive been running a two liter hempy sog perpetually for over a year now.

And lolly popping for most of those cycles. Been getting ~ .5 to .6 grams per watt in my setup.

This is my first time trying the 21 / 45 jrosek style sog defol.

Cool, I cannot wait to see how it goes for you. Keep the updates coming. Good luck!!

 

[SCROG McDuck]

Good luck k33.. hope to see you around...

I'm in with DFing... and passive plant killers....

Modertors should use better judgement when bashing a positive thread. Not create trouble by being a troll.

 

[TruthOrLie]

I haven't seen anyone bash this thread. All I've notice is a suggestion to have more sound evidence before making any claims... and directions how to make said evidence hold more weight.

 

[bs0]

I haven't seen anyone bash this thread. All I've notice is a suggestion to have more sound evidence before making any claims... and directions how to make said evidence hold more weight.

Here is a pertinant compatison: prove that's lst improves yeild. It is pretty damned hard.

 

[redspaghetti]

I have some progress pics to help this thread, this is the 2nd grow and so far a lot better than the first one with out defoliation



After :



at 3 weeks of flower

cheers,
red.

 

[medmaker420]

I will get some pics BUT I did it to a few strains and they were all from seed so pheno variation for sure.

Some loved it, some liked it and others hated it. If I only tried one that HATED it, I would call bullshit on this whole concept BUT I do have others that "liked" as well as "loved" defoliation.

 

[Marquis de Sod]

WELL SAID MED
just listen to the man. how hard could it be??

okay i didnt completely. i DF'd some at flip. 2 weeks later they look like sticks. (shante devi indica,( and btw jr said to use an indica strain).
but the ones i DF'd at 2wks into bloom are smokin. they dont look as good as some here, but it just all goes to show that it depends on the strain. which has been said about once per page of this thread.
anyways......
i am doing df'g in veg now.
i am waiting extra time for them to bounce back
i am putting them into bloom with lots o'leaves.
i am going to be strickly a 21/45 guy (maybe not the 45 so much, depending)
i am in 100% perlite/vermiculite with GH nutes. and..... i have one biggin i havent done anything to (in soil).

why? because about three years ago when i saw the jrosek posts in 'size does matter' i had four MONSTERS following his df'g advice. i tried to find another post by him or anybody on his method. but he disappeared. and all my plants after those four, turned to shit. then this thread appeared, and i have renewed my quest to find that MOTHER of all methods. i think this is the mother load. esp.since jr has posted in it as well. finally after 3 years, so i'm all in.
but i know i havent proven anything yet not even to myself on this. i owe the incredible buds all to the 70/30 p/v. read my first posts in this thread. but i feel in my heart that this is gonna be it. i know some of you hate jr. i lost respect for him too cause he abandoned the forum after saying he'd help. oh well, that's the way it goes.

we'll just see how it goes this time around.

i was thinking lets just close this thread, but then redspaghetti, you got a great post up there i would like to follow. even if i'm NOT growing the same thing you are

ALL keef said was try it! do it or don't but don't rag about it anymore. ever since about page 100 there has been little constructive posting till about now. hopefully we can keep it this way. lets just say the rest of the posting is like redspaget's, pics of whether OR NOT it works. peace.

 

[Panconqueso]

I've been reading this thread for a while now and decided to try it on my current grow. The girl is a mandala's white satin, currently week 5 of veg and the setup is composed by a 70w MH in a 40x40x60 (cm) box.

I think that WS has devolped better than i expected, lots of new branches to fill the scrog

Hope to be useful

Before


After


three days after


Cheers

 

[dramamine]

Thanks for this interesting and useful thread, K33f. The recent uproar reminds me a lot of the initial reaction to Hempy's bucket idea.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Had to drop in briefly this morning during a break. My last post was unfortunately in response to the incessant and irrelevant trollers. I won't be paying them anymore attention nor should anyone else who is here to discuss their own application of this technique. That is what this thread has always been about. I have never said that defoliation increases yield, period. I have continually stated is is a management technique to accomodate crowding and enhance development in those crowded conditions. Instead of spacing plants based on their leafy outcome you can defoliate them and crowd them closer thus allowing more plants in a given square footage thus increasing yield in that given area. Defoliating may even decrease the yield of a given plant in some cases, but it makes for a more compact plant that can also be crowded closer to it's neighbors. And so again, this increases yield in a given area provided you have designed-in the defoliation process into your spacing and height requirements. If one goes about their defoliation experiments without adjusting other parameters they may, indeed, see a reduction in yield. If they failed to notice that in defoliating, they created a bunch of new productive space and did not take advantage of it, then they missed the point.

The recent new posters have shown and stated some impressive results. I am impressed and motivated to match some of these yields.

I'll have to reclaim the thread for the practitioners of the technique. We want to keep this open for new visitors to share their experience. If someone finds that they decreased their yield, then maybe they can apply it better by the information shared here. I may not be able to post as often but what matters is that new posters can show off their results. I want to see these results as they motivate me.

Some trollers take issue with giving advice on this technique. Tough luck. Those asking for advice come here of there own free will and are willing to take a risk for sake of learning new skills. What is at risk anyway. It's not like it's life threatening. If they fail it's only a 2 month setback. Big deal. If they fail completely they are greenhorns and should not be doing this except at their own fully accepted risk.

I never intended to give advice. I shudder at giving almost any advice on growing. I only share my experience. That is precisely why these forums exist. If I share that I defoliated and trained the shit out of a plant and it increased yield then I am sure some want to here about it. If they ask how I did it, I will share the technique. This is not necessarily giving advice.

So carry on and it will stay positive. If the occasional troll emerges, ignore them. We are here to discuss and share experience, period.

They can whine and moan that their concerns are not addressed but they can just as well start a thread espousing the benefits of full foliage and will get respect as well. Let's see maybe it should be titled. Full-Foliation:Moderate yield technique.

 

[Astaroth]

Hi

I already heard of this, it seems to be productive oO
I'll make a try, thanks for this HUGE thread

 

[huntingbb]

Had to drop in briefly this morning during a break. My last post was unfortunately in response to the incessant and irrelevant trollers. I won't be paying them anymore attention nor should anyone else who is here to discuss their own application of this technique. That is what this thread has always been about. I have never said that defoliation increases yield, period. I have continually stated is is a management technique to accomodate crowding and enhance development in those crowded conditions. Instead of spacing plants based on their leafy outcome you can defoliate them and crowd them closer thus allowing more plants in a given square footage thus increasing yield in that given area. Defoliating may even decrease the yield of a given plant in some cases, but it makes for a more compact plant that can also be crowded closer to it's neighbors. And so again, this increases yield in a given area provided you have designed-in the defoliation process into your spacing and height requirements. If one goes about their defoliation experiments without adjusting other parameters they may, indeed, see a reduction in yield. If they failed to notice that in defoliating, they created a bunch of new productive space and did not take advantage of it, then they missed the point.

The recent new posters have shown and stated some impressive results. I am impressed and motivated to match some of these yields.

I'll have to reclaim the thread for the practitioners of the technique. We want to keep this open for new visitors to share their experience. If someone finds that they decreased their yield, then maybe they can apply it better by the information shared here. I may not be able to post as often but what matters is that new posters can show off their results. I want to see these results as they motivate me.

Some trollers take issue with giving advice on this technique. Tough luck. Those asking for advice come here of there own free will and are willing to take a risk for sake of learning new skills. What is at risk anyway. It's not like it's life threatening. If they fail it's only a 2 month setback. Big deal. If they fail completely they are greenhorns and should not be doing this except at their own fully accepted risk.

I never intended to give advice. I shudder at giving almost any advice on growing. I only share my experience. That is precisely why these forums exist. If I share that I defoliated and trained the shit out of a plant and it increased yield then I am sure some want to here about it. If they ask how I did it, I will share the technique. This is not necessarily giving advice.

So carry on and it will stay positive. If the occasional troll emerges, ignore them. We are here to discuss and share experience, period.

They can whine and moan that their concerns are not addressed but they can just as well start a thread espousing the benefits of full foliage and will get respect as well. Let's see maybe it should be titled. Full-Foliation:Moderate yield technique.

lol!

For the record, ive 19 going this round of two types, and defo'd all but 5 or so, so while it might not be perfectly scientific, i am documenting lol....

Trolls belong under bridges ftw - there's a great one in seattle

Anyway - thanks again for this thread, I'm definitely in on this one, 4 weeks into 12/12 and the difference is obvious already (i think) but it just makes so much sense. I was told to get rid of all leaves that got crappy - after fixing the issue if possible, and also to get leaves outta the way between the light and buds, shade doesn't really help


One of my problems previous was an organized way to do so, other than the above, and analyzing the technique, it really seems there's a major combo of ample veg time, and manipulating the amount of stress the plant has at a time.

It reminds me of when i was learning to make a mom, and i found that contrary to how i felt it should be, even if i didn't need cuts, it was better when the mom was young to cut her and discard the results, compared to just letting her be. Something about high stress really gets em going - just gotta watch the stall for a few days.. But i noticed that the one that got cut more often grew bigger, faster, and bushier than the other, the speed picking up as time went on.

I think that's part of whats going on here, i'm not sure if the HST part (stem-cracking) is absolutely required, but have you tried taking the tops and getting them below the root line? bitch goes crazzzzzzyy ASAP -- try keeping one branch below the top of the root line, and watch the whole thing (while in veg) go apeshit.

Scuse my bad language.

Anyway, preach on brother, the choir is here, and everyone should keep their own opinion, but i do value the failures personally, a well documented failure can teach more than a little.. and besides, we should build a database/list of strains that are well suited to this.

Also.... i suspect a few of the failures have to do with which leaves came off, and how many stayed on, and how good of a psychic the grower was (no big fan leaves for hints).


Blah - sorry - let me shut the heck up -- sorry i may be medicated...

 

[Scrogerman]

Is there a Sub Thread attatched to this one showing everyones succeses, if there isnt one there should be. This thread is soo big now its hard to keep up with everyones progress. K33f mate, any chance you could start a new thread so everyone thats had success with the tec can show their results. I think it would relieve this ever increasing masterfull thread & help others understand it. I really wanna give the tec a try. I do ScrOG & de-foliate myself but not to the extent being presented here, i mainly concentrate on the lower 1/2 of the plant, clearing the underside of the screen completely by day 21 of 12/12, im always looking for ways to improve my yield & hoping this is the one! Good Luck De-Foliaters!