Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[k33ftr33z]

Can I ask you a question?

Where do you see me debating anything about wether or not it works? I'm asking for their numbers... I'm asking for them to use words according to their english definitions... I'm asking for a consensus protocol as to how exactly it should be done, and a comparable data set from the people who are making the claims... and I posted that I did some experimenting with leaf pruning to expose larf sites without seeing an overall improvement in yield, 8 or 10 years ago.

Nowhere did I say that it was stupid, or that it is never a good tech to practice, or that it doesn't have applications, or anything of the sort.

You can find hundreds of threads here where people making claims post up evidence to support their claims, why should this thread be exempt from people wanting more information.

Why are the people asking for more information being demonized as haters?

What is wrong with clarifying the terms in use?

Are you sure you read my posts, or are you just assuming I'm bashing leaf pruning as a technique?

Grateful,

I appreciate your interest. The information you are asking for is not pertinent. Did you get that kind of information when you made a decision about what kind of lamp, or nutes, or media to use. There are lots of claims about increased yield from a slew of products out there. No one has been as demanding for that data, nor would I believe it if they had it. Nor should you.

It is not data we are discussing but experience. To enter the conversation it would be wise to gain some experience. The only thing I can advise you to do, like I have a hundred times, is to experiment and experience. Even if your intent is to challenge the hypothesis, it is the challengers burden to provide. Those of us who are comfortable in this practice are quite comfortable with the results. Not twisting arms and there is no rules against having this kind of roundtable here or anywhere else.

I understand you are not challenging the technique but asking for more info. I personally think that the subject has been adequately addressed as to technique. What's the fuss about. Do it in veg if you want. Do it at 20 or 40 days if you want. No one has demonstrated any ill effect on healthy plants. If you are not crowded, don't do it at all. If you are so unsure, and not curious enough or do not have the resources to experiemnt, I understand. Then it will remain a mystery.

I have never in my life asked for proof of anything before embarking on any potential experience. Whether it be work related or intellectual or recreational. No one ever had to prove to me that riding a skateboard or snowboard was fun and satisfying. Some are turned away at the first fall adn say for life..."I tried snowboarding and fell on my ass...." Gee, I guess they didn't realize you had to learn to ride to experience actual snowboarding.

Well you need to learn to defoliate in order to make the kind of judgement if it deployable in your situation. It is not about proving whether it "works" or whether it yields more. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind do anything to reduce yield.

BTW, I am not promoting this method as some have characterized. The thread was posted in the knowledge that there are others out there who have defoliated for decades and there still is this bugaboo over it. If you feel promoted to, than you can check out. If you are interested, sharpen your thumbnail, pluck, observe, share.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

First off I do not have to hurry for you or anyone. Secondly do you use hygrometers in your JARS? If not how do you know your stash is dried the same as last? Your guessing at Best! Everybody dries differently, and everyones opinion on what is DRY is different. My hygrometer, throws those variables out the window.

OMG... do you even read my posts?

I NEVER asked anyone to hurry anything.

You were claiming your SCALES told you it works.
The only way they can do that is be weighing dried buds.

Either you weighed dried buds, or your scales have not told you anything.

Your hygrometer rambling is red herring irrelevancy. I never asked for that degree of accuracy anywhere.

How are you preaching about accuracy? By demanding side by side grows and comparable data on harvests. Which I agree with you 100 percent. You cannot be accurate without previous harvest numbers. Not knowing how dry your buds actually are is not very accurate now is it? How else can you be for sure?

Asking for data to compare IS NOT preaching accuracy or anything else.

Please quote anywhere where I nitpicked anyone's accuracy.

Dry bud is close enough to determine difference. If the difference is so TINY that it can only be detected if the buds are dried to exactly the same point, then it is not enough difference to warrant changing anything.

If the stems break, and the bud can be crumbled and rolled and smoked without going out, then it is close enough to consistently dry.

You need to stop being so confrontational and defensive.

I was just making a statement that I trust my scale. Everything else is just not accurate. I NEVER said I did a final weight.
If you ever used hygrometers to Dry and Cure in your JARS...which I assume you never have. You would know that it takes a few days to become stable. Your right 2 or 3% is not going to make a difference on the scale...but when your buds are bigger and more dense...they hold more Moisture. At the same time, if you dry more than the last grow...you will have less weight.

Bullshit you said ""I believe the scale, and mine says it works."

You clearly were claiming that your scales had already proved it works. No sense crawfishing now.

You being a very experience grower should know how much big buds and stems hold moisture. Now I could have weighed my stash a couple of days ago, but I like to wait a few days to make sure my jars are stable. I know I have more and I am not in a hurry to Fondle my buds to please you.

When I weigh my harvest I put it directly into smaller jars for my Patients. Like I have said 16x now, I will post the numbers ASAP. I do have a life beyond this website. Stop being a dickhead and demanding proof right now. You are the one with a HUGE chip on your shoulder. I am not the one coming into a thread that was peaceful and putting demands on people. If you do not trust me or anyone else, I could give a shit less.

And like I keep saying I'm patiently waiting. Im the mean time please avoid telling me what your scales said about it working, when they clearly could not have said so yet.

You are not the GOD of growing, so stop acting like it. Just because something works for others, and it is against your beliefs does not mean you have to be such an Asshole. We are trying to share OUR experiences, nothing more, nothing less. Not ONE of us has claimed it is the best way or only way, just that it helped us out...and in some cased ALOT.

Have you even read my posts? lmao... I'm neither being an asshole, NOR am I saying anything based on my beliefs.... Jeeesh. Acting like I think I'm a god of growing... hardly... Stop being personally insulting and stay on topic.

I am asking you to share a bit more detail about your experiences is all...

TAKE THE CHIP OFF OF YOUR SHOULDER

I am sorry you ASSumed I already weighed my harvest...but ASSumming makes an ASS out of U and ME! I will reword my statement just for you.

" I will believe my scale once I weigh my harvest" The question is " Will you believe Me?" That is a hypothetical question, that I already know the answer to.

Well... the "rewording" is actually a complete change in meaning.

Of course I WILL believe you when you post up your weights.

But earlier you CLEARLY said your scales had already told you it works.

If your scales had told you it works, then you would have had to have weighed something.

Not so much ASSumption, as simply reading what you wrote.

I believe the scale, and mine says it works. I trust it over you or anyone else. But let me guess....my scale is broken?

Nothing future tense about that claim at all.

"mine says it works"
What english speaking person would not take that to mean you'd weighed it?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Grateful,

I appreciate your interest. The information you are asking for is not pertinent. Did you get that kind of information when you made a decision about what kind of lamp, or nutes, or media to use. There are lots of claims about increased yield from a slew of products out there. No one has been as demanding for that data, nor would I believe it if they had it. Nor should you.

It is not data we are discussing but experience. To enter the conversation it would be wise to gain some experience. The only thing I can advise you to do, like I have a hundred times, is to experiment and experience. Even if your intent is to challenge the hypothesis, it is the challengers burden to provide. Those of us who are comfortable in this practice are quite comfortable with the results. Not twisting arms and there is no rules against having this kind of roundtable here or anywhere else.

I understand you are not challenging the technique but asking for more info. I personally think that the subject has been adequately addressed as to technique. What's the fuss about. Do it in veg if you want. Do it at 20 or 40 days if you want. No one has demonstrated any ill effect on healthy plants. If you are not crowded, don't do it at all. If you are so unsure, and not curious enough or do not have the resources to experiemnt, I understand. Then it will remain a mystery.

I have never in my life asked for proof of anything before embarking on any potential experience. Whether it be work related or intellectual or recreational. No one ever had to prove to me that riding a skateboard or snowboard was fun and satisfying. Some are turned away at the first fall adn say for life..."I tried snowboarding and fell on my ass...." Gee, I guess they didn't realize you had to learn to ride to experience actual snowboarding.

Well you need to learn to defoliate in order to make the kind of judgement if it deployable in your situation. It is not about proving whether it "works" or whether it yields more. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind do anything to reduce yield.

BTW, I am not promoting this method as some have characterized. The thread was posted in the knowledge that there are others out there who have defoliated for decades and there still is this bugaboo over it. If you feel promoted to, than you can check out. If you are interested, sharpen your thumbnail, pluck, observe, share.

Dude... GPW data from people who are trying this is not too much to ask. No-one is demanding proof... just data that could be easily provided by anyone who is claiming improvement.

Why must it remain a mystery... People are willing to start threads and discuss it and take pictures... but not willing to post up running gpw measurements? that'd make no sense.

If you're unwilling to, then don't... but don't pretend people are out of line for asking.



Also... you are right... I'm not challenging the technique, but I am challenging the way it is billed and presented.

For example: I can completely support my position that it is a modified bonsai technique, even using your own posts to do so... and I can completely support my position that anyone removing less that 100% of the leaves from their plant has not actually defoliated their plant, they have just pruned some of the leaves back.

 

[k33ftr33z]

I keep forgetting to mention LifeLess and his contributions. Sorry Buddy.

For some reason, all the recent curiosity and fuss seems to have completely missed his results.

My impression is that by the insistent challenges, his results are flawed or second rate and not satisfying. Far from it. Why is it that his word and obvious articulation still leaves some with any question. Clearly he and d9nxs and others have their shit dialed. In any other thread, these challengers would be all over their tip with praise. But when it comes to defoliation there must be some deception....sheez

who knew.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I keep forgetting to mention LifeLess and his contributions. Sorry Buddy.

For some reason, all the recent curiosity and fuss seems to have completely missed his results.

My impression is that by the insistent challenges, his results are flawed or second rate and not satisfying. Far from it. Why is it that his word and obvious articulation still leaves some with any question. Clearly he and d9nxs and others have their shit dialed. In any other thread, these challengers would be all over their tip with praise. But when it comes to defoliation there must be some deception....sheez

who knew.

Why is it that most icmag growers love posting up their weights, and most growers who are anal about yield track their weights, but so few in this thread are willing to simply post up tracking data sans hyperbole?

Like I've posted before... I think this tech has proper applications.

Having a body of data concerning different uses of it, along with measured results, will only serve to help those who are considering wether or not to apply it to their situation.

Like you've said... It has to be the whole garden, and has to be worked in from the beginning. I would think posting up usable numbers per situation and method, would only benefit everyone participating in the thread or considering the technique.

People are not accusing deception, they just want enough information.
This thread is supposed to be the place for that information.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Dude... GPW data from people who are trying this is not too much to ask. No-one is demanding proof... just data that could be easily provided by anyone who is claiming improvement.

Why must it remain a mystery... People are willing to start threads and discuss it and take pictures... but not willing to post up running gpw measurements? that'd make no sense.

If you're unwilling to, then don't... but don't pretend people are out of line for asking.



Also... you are right... I'm not challenging the technique, but I am challenging the way it is billed and presented.

For example: I can completely support my position that it is a modified bonsai technique, even using your own posts to do so... and I can completely support my position that anyone removing less that 100% of the leaves from their plant has not actually defoliated their plant, they have just pruned some of the leaves back.

I have posted gpw. It is not in spread sheet form nor have I elaborated it plant by plant. I have work to do. the gpw is arrived at over quantities not per plant or even compartment. The running yield without defoliating is under 1gpw ranging from .75-.9.

The gpw defoliating is always over 1 ranging from 1.-1.25. I think it could go higher through even tighter management over size branching and of course defoliation.

So there you have some numbers. They are rough but they are derived over long term observation. I have every reason as you to have a great crop and yield.

I liked the cosmetic results when not defoliating as some top buds were larger..but not by much. The yield is less so I defoliate. I also did not have to defoliate which is a labor saver. But 25% greater yield is nothing to sniff at for a few nights of plucking and training.

Yield is far more dependable when defoliating as all the space is maximized and leafy plants simply are space hogs.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Right on... 25% is a statistically significant number.

As similar reports get posted up, from across varied garden situations, People looking into this will have a good guideline in helping them decide how much or how little to prune as well as when, and in what garden situation.

From what I've read here the results seem to vary from slight loss or 'it didn't work' to around 25% gain. It be nice to eventually have enough data gathered here to know exactly why... and thus when where and how to employ it optimally, without each new practitioner having to re-invent the wheel.

Some people jump right in, and that's often good.
Some like to see what happens when others jump in, so that they can make their jump count... and that's good too.

If you don't care to measure... then don't... I'm not asking for extra work from anyone.
But if people are posting "It works I got lots more", then it should be no trouble to explain exactly how they know it worked and they got more.

 

[slowandeasy]

Head, if the stem breaks and it crumbles....it is TOO DRY! And that is a horrible way to consider it to be done. Wow, that is how a breeder determines huh? Proves my point exactly, that is not accurate at all. Water weighs, and if you even try to say differently I am done. Drying until your stem snaps, could rob you of alot of weight and if you overdry...it will NEVER cure. Very unreliable. Consistant drying is just as important as any other factor of your grow. Bud density plays a key role in this, just because the stem snaps does not mean it is properly dried. Stick a really dense bud in a jar, it might feel dry to you...but you could go back the next day and have mold. Drying and curing without know how moist they are can ruin your whole crop!


I truely apologize. You are 100 percent right, It did come off like I have already weighed my harvest. I did not yet, and it came out wrong. My bad, I will admit that. However, even if I did weigh my harvest and made that statement. Where do you get off telling me what to do? If its done, why havent you weighed it? Either post your weight or shut up is basically what you are telling me. I do not have to post shit. I do not have to prove shit. But I will, because I said I would. I am nice enough to post my experiences. I take things personally sometimes, as anyone would when they know something has worked for them. I have no reason to lie, and understand that proof is the answer. I promise to you and everyone else I will not post again until I weigh my jars. I am getting pissed off anyhow. Peace.

BTW I am not promoting this technique, I am just stating that it helped me out. A good experienced grower does not need anything but there eyes to see a difference...positive or negative. An accurate scale is the only way to tell how much more or less you have...but experience and common sense goes a long way. If your buds are more dense and you have more bud....chances are your yield is better.

Even if my yields are exactly the same, I have more equally sized buds than normal and far less waste. Plus final trim is a breeze...so it is a win win situation.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

What you gonna play pick on semantics with the word crumble?

It has to be dry enough to crumble by hand, It is too dry if you cannot crumble it without it going to dust.
You can't roll a joint with whole buds, they have to be crumbled.
What do you call it when you break your bud up into small pieces to roll with?

crumble |ˈkrəmbəl|
verb [ intrans. ]
break or fall apart into small fragments.
[ trans. ] cause (something) to break apart into small fragments


Also I said the stem breaks... not the stem snaps.
If your stems are bendy, your buds are wet.

I'm obviously talking about when buds are ready to weigh.
This is out of the jars, not off the racks.




lmao at those who must distort my statements in order to have grounds for nitpicking irrelevancies.
Get back on topic.

The only person here preaching and nitpicking accuracy is YOU.

 

[Abja Roots]

I'm running a 2k vert which is beginning it's 3rd week of flower. The leaves were so thick I felt like I had to pluck some to let the light get through to the interior. I only stripped the leaves which were blocking the light from hitting the bud sites on the interior.

I tried this before in a horizontal grow with some GDP's and it turned out really well. I don't know if it increased yield, but the overall quality of the finished nuggets was much more uniform and dense. I liked it.

So I'm experimenting with it again. I didn't do it super intensively, but I'm happy with the way it looks. I had been taught to never pull leaves, except for cleaning up the bottoms so this is a bit of a change for me. We'll see how it goes.

Seems like this would work well on the Sourbubble and BS 2.2 with their super thick leaves which block the light to the nuggets.

 

[150wclub]

abja roots , wow 2k worth of lights , sounds intense. keep us up dated with pictures if you can. i would love to see what this technique can do under some serious lights.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Either post your weight or shut up is basically what you are telling me.

No... Basically what I'm telling you is quit telling me your scales told you it works, If you haven't weighed anything.... and if you have weighed it, stop telling me you're going to post weights and post them already.

I don't know why you have to try and turn this discussion into a fight... No one has asked you for anything you haven't offered.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Drying until your stem snaps, could rob you of alot of weight

I guess if your goal is making the buds seem heavier... and you're trying to keep them as wet as you can get away with.

 

[Greyskull]

Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique

Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique

It be nice to eventually have enough data gathered here to know exactly why... and thus when where and how to employ it optimally

I agree

The difficulty in that though is different individuals (maybe strains is the better term to use in this case...) respond differently than others...

Example: in my experience grape romulan doesnt respond the same as bubba kush to defoliation techniques

We might be able to establish/find some loose guidelines...
But K33f kinda laid those out already (ex start in veg)

 

[Marquis de Sod]

i would like all you people who need SIDE BY SIDE PROOF to just get the hell out of this thread and find some other thread to troll on, WHY?

because even if i had two perfect side by sides, they still wouldnt matter to you because:

A was in soil, B was in perlite, or compost, or.. fill in the blank

A was under 400W, mine are under 1000W, or B was under a 400W light that was 6 inches higher or... fill in the blank.

YOU did a side by side with indica, I am growing Sativa

YOUR test was in a white room, MINE is in a milar room

YOUR test was in 86F, MY ROOM is always 75F

YOUR humidity/PH/ FERTS, ETC ETC AD INFINITUM, WAS THIS....MINE IS THAT!!!

So NO amount of side by side anything is going to prove anything to you guys, so QUIT ASKING FOR IT AND GO AWAY!!! THANK YOU!

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

We might be able to establish/find some loose guidelines...
But K33f kinda laid those out already (ex start in veg)

He did, but later he said

What's the fuss about. Do it in veg if you want. Do it at 20 or 40 days if you want. No one has demonstrated any ill effect on healthy plants. If you are not crowded, don't do it at all.

That's part of the problem I have with it... It is kind of implied that all defoliation is good defoliation... whatever data gets posted will add to the body of information and help people figure out what they want to do.

 

[blazeoneup]

You guys make me want to take 5 clones of the exact same strain all equally sized and healthy. Plant them all in the same exact soil mix in the same sized pots.

1. would be standard untouched plant.
2. would be left untouched until flower then defoliated vigorously.
3. would be defoliated through-out veg & flower in stages.
4. would get vigourously defoliated once during veg once during flower
5. would be defoliated in mid bloom and again during the ripening period.

All grown under a individual 400w light same hood ballast and bulbs in the same room with a stable climate. Find out what performs best.

2 runs one for an indica dom strain and another for sativa dom strain.....

Until next time be safe and take care!

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

You guys make me want to take 5 clones of the exact same strain all equally sized and healthy. Plant them all in the same exact soil mix in the same sized pots.

1. would be standard untouched plant.
2. would be left untouched until flower then defoliated vigorously.
3. would be defoliated through-out veg & flower in stages.
4. would get vigourously defoliated once during veg once during flower
5. would be defoliated in mid bloom and again during the ripening period.

All grown under a individual 400w light same hood ballast and bulbs in the same room with a stable climate. Find out what performs best.

2 runs one for an indica dom strain and another for sativa dom strain.....

Until next time be safe and take care!

I would be very impressed by someone taking on an experiment of that magnitude for the betterment of the community.

 

[DHF]

The original de-foliation thread by Jrosek was using hydroton and increased plant numbers in hydro SOG type setups and running fully rooted cuts straight 12/12 till finish and strippin fans at 21 days and then day 45 according to the "master plan".........

Blaze....doin it in soil as a side by side wouldn`t reflect what can be done in an accelerated hydro setup fed frequently flood and drain as you know........Jro swore the recovery time was minimal due to constant feed and accelerated growth during the stretch for the first raping , and then mid flower for the last strip to keep energy from being diverted ta growin water/sugarleaf , promoting swellage till choptime.........all in a fast hydro feed system to solicit the fast recovery.............I got 1 thing ta say......Bullshit...........

This shit`s strain related at best cuz I attempted it with my Chem D`s per the exact formula in several rooms flippin behind each other..........All it did for me is give the exact same yield and took 2 weeks longer to finish in EACH room due to plant shock and recovery time for the exact same size and yield with trichs being the same color with nugz comparable , but was easy as hell ta trim come harvey......

I liked the lack of trim time , but the 2 week delay from plant stress and recovery time pissed me off and cost me money......

The only wayta know if this technique works well for your particular situation is to try it after already having done things in the conventional manner to have some comparisons on the same strain/variety.........

IOW.....If you`ve never monocropped for the best results possible out of any particular strain , then you`d never know what it takes for recovery from plant stress without having run the same strain multiple times to know what it`ll do once dialed......

Ya`ll figure it out.....I already made my assessments long ago.........Works for some.......sux for most.........

Peace........DHF...............

 

[Greyskull]

Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique

Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique

The original de-foliation thread by Jrosek was using hydroton and increased plant numbers in hydro SOG type setups and running fully rooted cuts straight 12/12 till finish and strippin fans at 21 days and then day 45 according to the "master plan".........

Blaze....doin it in soil as a side by side wouldn`t reflect what can be done in an accelerated hydro setup fed frequently flood and drain as you know..........but........

This shit`s strain related and I attempted it with my Chem D`s per the exact formula..........All it did for me is give the exact same yield and took 2 weeks longer to finish due to plant shock and recovery , but was easy as hell ta trim come harvey......

I liked the lack of trim time , but the 2 week delay from plant stress and recovery time pissed me off and cost me money......

The only wayta know if this technique works well for your particular situation is to try it after already having done things in the conventional manner to have some comparisons on the same strain/variety.........

Ya`ll figure it out.....I already made my assessments long ago.........

Peace........DHF...............

Word