Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[Mental_Mel]

I would like to try this method but i dont want to wreck my plants. So i thought i would study a bit and the more i study the less i feel comfortable with doing it.

Any chance anyone would be willing to do a side by side of clones, one defoilation one regular.
Would be a nice contribution if anyone has the time and energy.

Firstly it just doesn't seem right to me that people would be asking politely since the sart of the topic and no one seems to be interested. This same question has been asked for 6 months and yet no one has done it?

I mean people everywhere just cant wait to make solid contributions. I see side by side experiments all over the site. I see many other types of tutorials and how to's yet no one is willing to take this one on? Maybe it has been done but the results weren't favorable?

It is unfortunate the negativity. Let's reset the thread for those who are participating and contributing their results, whether it is accompanied by a spreadsheet or not. Those demanding some kind of proof must have pictures blocked or something.

The technique isn't for everyone and if one's setup is so dialed at over 1gpw than maybe this isn't worth it.

You are right that there is an art to it. Managing the variables in any given cycle is an art and defoliating is one of my key management tools.

k33ftr33z, you say three important things here.

1. unfortunate negativity
2. Let's reset the thread
3. The technique isn't for everyone & there is an art to it.

You have an opportunity right now to make this all right.

1. You can stop the negativity
2. You can reset the thread but it will take more than mear words.
3. You know better than anyone the technique and art behind it.

So why dont you do the side by side? Or you appoint someone you know can do it correctly.

If you say you will do it

1. The negativity will stop instantly
2. The thread will be set on a new path and people will have something positive to talk about and look forward to.
3. You know how to do it correctly and the glory once proven will be yours.


k33ftr33z, deep down you know its all up to you. You cant trust anyone else to do it correctly, especially the people who doubt it will work.
Also you know deep down that you alone are responsable for the negativity and bad karma in this thread.
The first thing you say in the whole thread is "This subject is bound to raise a lot of disagreement"
You have had 6 months to make things right. Its not too late. Be the man, stand up and do it.
After all this is your claim, this is your thread.

 

[Mental_Mel]

BTW, what is the point you are tying to make? That we are all lying?

come up with another reason to discredit me.

It worked for me, for sure. Jars are stable and curing, so I will post everything this week. Thanks for understanding.

I understand. I'm a new grower and i understand that an experienced grower is not going to put bud that isnt completely dry into a jar to cure.

Who would go to the effort of a whole grow and risk mold?

I dont see why you dont post the results now. Dry weight is dry weight. A week or two cure will make a negligible difference at absolute best.

The things people are saying in this thread do not make any sense. This is the only reason i'm starting to doubt this method. Though i would still like to try it.



slowandeasy, please dont take this as an attack on you. It is mearly an observation and i understand that you could have just made a mistake when typing or meant to say something else but were worked up.

 

[Herborizer]

I would like to try this method but i dont want to wreck my plants. So i thought i would study a bit and the more i study the less i feel comfortable with doing it.




Firstly it just doesn't seem right to me that people would be asking politely since the sart of the topic and no one seems to be interested. This same question has been asked for 6 months and yet no one has done it?

I mean people everywhere just cant wait to make solid contributions. I see side by side experiments all over the site. I see many other types of tutorials and how to's yet no one is willing to take this one on? Maybe it has been done but the results weren't favorable?





k33ftr33z, you say three important things here.

1. unfortunate negativity
2. Let's reset the thread
3. The technique isn't for everyone & there is an art to it.

You have an opportunity right now to make this all right.

1. You can stop the negativity
2. You can reset the thread but it will take more than mear words.
3. You know better than anyone the technique and art behind it.

So why dont you do the side by side? Or you appoint someone you know can do it correctly.

If you say you will do it

1. The negativity will stop instantly
2. The thread will be set on a new path and people will have something positive to talk about and look forward to.
3. You know how to do it correctly and the glory once proven will be yours.


k33ftr33z, deep down you know its all up to you. You cant trust anyone else to do it correctly, especially the people who doubt it will work.
Also you know deep down that you alone are responsable for the negativity and bad karma in this thread.
The first thing you say in the whole thread is "This subject is bound to raise a lot of disagreement"
You have had 6 months to make things right. Its not too late. Be the man, stand up and do it.
After all this is your claim, this is your thread.

k33ftr33z was nice enough to share this knowledge. If you need proof, then I think it would be a good idea for you todo a side by side. Then share the experience for the rest of us.

 

[Phedrosbenny]

I would like to try this method but i dont want to wreck my plants. So i thought i would study a bit and the more i study the less i feel comfortable with doing it.

And the more you study out of the so-called grow bibles the more you will find problems with what they say in them too.MJ hasnt been studied to death yet like most other things on this Earth.It was thrown on a back shelf because the mainstream media proclaimed it evil.So most things that we know about MJ now is because of backyard/closet growers...who may or may not be right about what they are saying.Thanks to them for trying either way.

I have used this tek and it has worked for me.To be honest I do not know exactly why.Is it just the extra Veg time or the Defolation that is increasing yield.I dont know.I know that where temps are a problem a defolated plant will help temps to get a little lower.And that when i defolate a plant leaves and budsights grow back quickly and thickly.Maybe even too thick.Mold could end up being a issue if not kept in check.

I do know that I have read things from growers that I know have a green thumb.Growers I respect on both sides of the question.So as soon as I get the chance I will do a side by side just for my own answer.

It only takes 2 clones to find out.You guys quit arguing and have a good weekend.

 

[Mental_Mel]

k33ftr33z was nice enough to share this knowledge. If you need proof, then I think it would be a good idea for you todo a side by side. Then share the experience for the rest of us.

I dont understand why you would say this. Its exactly the reason why people are arguing in the thread. Really its a stupid thing to say.

k33ftr33z, slowandeasy and others warn that this is not for inexperienced growers to try.

It only takes 2 clones to find out.You guys quit arguing and have a good weekend.

Thank you indeed. someone finally talking sense.
I'm a bit worried about extra veg time though. I didnt know that was needed.

 

[Phedrosbenny]

Thank you indeed. someone finally talking sense.
I'm a bit worried about extra veg time though. I didnt know that was needed.

Im not sure if you would have to actually add Veg time to your plants.Its never a bad idea though.I remember reading somewhere in this thread the O.P. saying it extended the Veg time.

To be honest i usually give them at least a cdouple months Veg time anyways.I just dont like smaller plants.Some people do well that way though.S.O.G...It just isnt my thing.

And Thank You for the Thank You.

Good Luck with your grow.

 

[medmaker420]

this thread turned into a bitch n moan session

what a waste of a perfectly good thread

 

[!!!]

And the more you study out of the so-called grow bibles the more you will find problems with what they say in them too.

For those who follow the "bibles" - Ed Rosenthal himself says [on trimming fan leaves]:

To trim or not to trim that is the question. Try everything for yourself. Try it all ways. (The Crazy Composer, 13.03.2002). Simply put there is no universal answer it depends on how your are growing when where and what you trim (Cardboardbill, 03.13.2002)

http://mjgrowers.com/book_lets_research.htm

He suggests doing it in flower only however.

 

[!!!]

this thread turned into a bitch n moan session

what a waste of a perfectly good thread

Tuhder did an excellent job of compiling the most useful information of this thread into a PDF and posting it. I don't remember what page it was on but it would be wise for the OP to attach it to the main thread so new readers can glean it instead of being overwhelmed at the thought of going through each page before trying this.

found: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3885667&postcount=1381

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

For those who follow the "bibles" - Ed Rosenthal himself says [on trimming fan leaves]:
http://mjgrowers.com/book_lets_research.htm

He suggests doing it in flower only however.

From that article (which was written to compile the results of this discussion back on Overgrow in "the growing consensus" sub-forum)

WHEN AND WHAT TO TRIM IF AT ALL

To trim or not to trim that is the question. Try everything for yourself. Try it all ways. (The Crazy Composer, 13.03.2002). Simply put there is no universal answer it depends on how your are growing when where and what you trim (Cardboardbill, 03.13.2002)

Genetic Variance

Cannabis phenotypes play a large part. A strain with very few leaves and long internodes will need a lot less trimming - if a trimming technique is even adopted. A strain with a surplus of leaves and short internodes would require more thinning to get the same amount of light to the lower buds (The Crazy Composer, 13.03.2002). Cannabis varieties from high sunshine equatorial areas like thai sativa have thin leaves most likely due to more light than say a indicia plant from afghan regions have wider fan leaves due to less light intensity in their natural environment (Lebman, 03.20.2002).

Remove non productive ?dead? leaf material

Here are some signs to look for when removing foliage. Leaves that have reached their final size and are ageing will stop producing chlorophyll and start changing to a lighter color, often yellowing and showing purple petioles (leaf stems). This is when the leaves’ capacity to produce sugars starts to diminish, so they are the ones to take out of the way to allow Sunlight to fall on the younger leaves that are producing at a higher rate. The older leaves, even though larger, are no longer very productive once they are not dark green anymore. By the time they start looking pale or discolored, they are not contributing anything to the plant at all. Obviously, the lower leaves are the oldest and the first to age. Old leaves can be removed at any time they are shading younger ones, but try to never remove a leaf in its expanding stage because it is producing at full power (Leaf, 03.13.2002.

Outdoors, fan leaves serve an additional and very important purpose of protecting the buds from the elements and predators. These leaves often become damaged in the course of doing their duty, and will then wither or break off (Jeast, 03.13.02). However depending on the humidity of the growing climate Leaf (03.13.2002) suggests to trim most leaves that show signs of age, are dull in color, yellowing, and obviously any brown or spotted leaves that have bugs or bug damage to prevent mould.

To Increase Lower Bud Development

Light efficiency decreases with distance. The inverse squared light rule states that illuminance is inversely proportionate to the square of the distance from the light source.

Removing the largest area of photosynthesis that is closest to the light source simply to benefit smaller leaves growing out of the but sites that are further away is not logical when growing indoors”(Smokinrav, 03.15.2002). Cultivating outdoors under the sun, the fan leaves don’t create nearly as much shade as they do indoors (~shabang~, 03.13.2002). This is consistent with the inverse squared light rule; the sun is 149,597,890 km away so a few feet has no real effect on intensity. This suggests that a trimming benefit could be achieved outdoors as opposed to indoors however leaves only absorb about 15% of the solar energy that hits them, the other 85% passes through except for green light which is reflected, therefore removal of fan leaves would only provide a 15% increase light transmission outdoors (Shipperke, 03.15.2002).

Jeast (03.12.2002) removes fan leaves that are yellowing or starting to yellow (these are usually on the lower stems) and also mid-stem fan leaves that are shading buds. He always try to retain the upper 2 - 3 sets of fan leaves indoors as he believe they are the ones that are truly “working”. The concept of the upper fan leaves doing all the work is consistent with effect of the inverse square rule on lighting intensity indoors and the flow on effect for photosynthesis. In support for trimming HyGradeChronic (03.25.2002) states selective trimming benefits lower floral development, allowing the buds to fill out and tighten up better. However he does mention that humidity must be kept to a minimum as leftover stems from the leaf can develop mould unless kept at optimum humidity. Another flow on effect to leaf trimming mentioned by HydradeChronic is that it takes seven to ten days longer for floral development to finish, but the resulting florescence is at it?s peak from top to bottom.

An alternative to trimming to increase light to lower floral clusters is to use a light mover on a single plant the results are better thanks to the better penetration of light at different angles. Even simple under lighting and side lighting works well to counter fan leaves by adding extra light where it would not normally get (Vapour, 03/13.2002).

Increase upper bud development

What folks need to focus on is the causes of premature leaf drop as that negatively affects yields. If you’ve read my posts over the years, I try to pound that issue home whenever given a chance. After a good root development, the most important element in floral production is the retention of healthy leaves (Thunderbunny as citied, by Nietzsche, 03.13.2002).

Green Reaper (03.12.2002) suggests that large leaves actually take more energy to maintain than they produce. In contrast Thunderbunny (as citied, by Nietzsche, 03.13.2002) states that when a leaf no longer serves a productive purpose, the plant will remove the leftover metabolites from the leaf, which causes the old spotty, yellowing, necrotic image and then the leaf drops. Once that leaf is gone, a percentage of what would be available carbohydrates for future plant growth is diminished in direct relationship to the loss. The mobility of plants sugars and nutrients suggests that fully developed fan leaves are sources not sinks. Whether developing fan leaves are a sink or a source however is not as clear. An actively growing leaf may be a sink, using energy from the other parts of the plant to fuel their development (George, 03.20.2002). Older developed leaves and that are sources. However there is no evidence to support that during the plants life cycle the development of fan leaves takes more energy then a fully developed fan leave provides, that is to say sink phase is greater than the source phase (Nietzsche). It would also seem illogical from an evolutionary point of view that a plant would evolve to produce leaves that take more energy to sustain then they produce (~shabang~, 03.13.2002).

Trim fan leaves in the last 14 days to help speed up flushing

It helps speed up the flushing process and or makes flushing unnecessary (Homemadepot, 03.13.2002). However the leaves should naturally yellow, too much green in the leaves translates to too much “green” taste in the leaves in my opinion (Bigislandbud, 03.14.2002).

Reducing the Stretch

If trimming fan leaves reduced the stretch it is likely that this occurred because it takes away from the plant’s available energy stores and energy generators (~Shabang~, 03.13.2002). This method of reducing the stretch should only be used if absolutely necessary, other options include chemical treatment may be a more viable option.

HOW TO TRIM IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO

If you decide to trim your fan leaves, one should always do it by clipping the petiole about halfway between the base of the fan leaf and the stem/branch. Allow the remainder of the petiole to dry up and fall off on its own. This will help protect the plant from risks of infections. They should never be stripped or broken off at the base of the petiole as that would be expose more chance of infecting the plant. Petiole is the he foot stalk of a leaf (10k, 03.16.2002)

Leaf (03.13.2002) believes that excessive leaf trimming and branch pruning will cause the plant to use extra energy to repair itself. However, trimming must be done from time to time, for the longer a plant is left untrimmed, the more material must be removed at one time, therefore the greater the damage that the plant will need to repair. Do not trim fan leaves during veg either, unless they turn yellow. The first real pruning starts when going into 12/12 (Jeast, 03.13.2002). When trimming and pruning, I try to ensure that I do not cause the plant to ‘bleed’. Leaf tries to pinch off shoots and leaves with my fingernails as opposed to leaving a clean cut. One thing to remember is every time you cut into any part of a plant, you are exposing the inside of the plant to fungus and bacteria (Leaf, 03.13.2002).

Tuck instead of trimming

Another method is to tuck your fans leaves under to expose the buds, don’t forget that even though they wont be getting as much light they are still photosynthesizing and more importantly exchanging gases storing nutrients, and building sugars which the bud then converts into THC and other cannibinoids (Ca, 13.03.2002)

This Synopsis paper, is a consensus of opinions compiled in the Overgrow Growing Consensus forum. Compiled and written by Nietzsche, originally posted 4/20/2002. 022006

The growing consensus was an awesome subforum. wish we had one here.

 

[slowandeasy]

1. I NEVER accused you of lying.
2. I never tried to discredit you.
3. I'm waiting... I'd keep waiting quietly if you'd quit posting up things like "I believe the scale" which make it sound as though you have taken measurements that you're not sharing. To believe your scale would imply that you've already weighed everything, otherwise what would there be for you to believe.

Try removing the chip from your shoulder, looking at everything through those persecution colored glasses is making you take things differently that they were written.

I know you keep saying you'll post up weight in a few days... you said it a few days ago. We'll keep waiting. I just wonder how you believe your scales when they haven't told you anything yet.


BTW... If your scale says "it worked" instead of giving numerical measurements, it is indeed broken.

One part of accurate measurement is to ensure it is DRY. Water is extra weight. So throw that into your factors. No matter how you grow, if you weigh your harvest and they are more moist than previous grows....it will not be accurate.

You keep preaching about how be accurate, that is a huge factor in accuracy. And since I use Hygrometers to DRY and Cure I know how moist they actually are....Not a guess! Do you dry and cure this way HEAD? Because if you do not, how do you know you dried it EXACTLY the same as previous grows? Your stats will be flawed. So how do you know YOUR buds are dried EXACTLY the same as previous rounds Head? That goes for myself and anyone else drying and curing...using any method to grow.

Why do I not have my weight yet? Because I wait for my jars to be come Stable in Humidity before I weigh. Dont need any flawed numbers, because someone like yourself will try to talk shit. Think what you want, but my buds are more dense and I have almost 2x the amount of Jars as normal. That alone speaks words, but like I said " I trust my Scale" Even I will admit that is the only way to be accurate is to compare actual weight. See I agree with you, by saying I trust my scale.

I apologize, but my buds are more dense this round...so they took longer to dry....but that doesnt mean anything either does it? Be sure to check back in a few days, I will find time to weigh everything out. But it is going to take longer than usual...because there is MORE!

I am not going to weigh things before I should, just to throw some numbers up to satisfy you and the rest of the Non Believers.

 

[redspaghetti]

I'm not here to insult, or merely to argue... but there is discussion and peer review which should take place. There is nothing wrong with asking people making claims to measure those claims.

No... I'm not asking for 10 consecutive grows. I never asked for 10 consecutive grows.

Why would you take me out of context like that?

Someone else was claiming that there was data from 10 consecutive grows already posted. I was commenting specifically to them. I did discuss the '10 consecutive grows' someone else claimed, but never asked for any specific number of anything.

Yes I advocate a side by side situation, or a consecutive gpw measurement, or ANY measurement technique which will actually demonstrate the claims being made. Obviously measurements would be useless without a control group and a test group.

The only thing that makes this at all 'dangerous' is the lack of consensus as to exactly when where or how it should be done, and the lack of a general protocol, and the misleading thread title... but it does not really make anything dangerous, just unclear... but why not clear things up if you can? (especially if you're advocating something)

also lmao at anyone who thinks asking for evidence, when someone makes a claim = anger over the claim.... just lmao. The only ones in the thread who seem to be angry are the ones being asked for evidence.

Of course demanding that people do work for you is rude, but asking people to verify something they are asserting is not, its just science.
What is up with starting a thread to demonstrate a technique and make a claim, and then getting bent out of shape when people ask you for evidence demonstrating the claim or to more clearly define exactly what the technique does and does not entail? It's easy to pretend as though the people asking the questions are out of line, and demonize them and their request, instead of simply having the discussion, I guess.


Yes defoliation means depriving a plant of leaves... like you just posted. If you leave leaves on your plant, then you did not deprive the plant of leaves. It does not really mean removing only a leaf from a plant, or just some leaves. When you debone something you don't just remove a portion of the bone. I don't understand why people get so angry when others expect words to be used according to their meaning. I don't understand why anyone would want to be stubborn and use an inaccurate and misleading term like defoliation to refer to pruning.

From your post:


That is correct.
Deprive the plant of leaves.

deprive |diˈprīv|
verb [ trans. ]
deny the possession or use of something.

Are you people denying your plant the possession or use of leaves?
Nope. just pruning away some of the leaves.

Do you call root pruning "de-rooting"
Do you call taking cuttings "delimbing"

Anyhow I'm out of this thread... only replied because you spoke directly to me. Thanks for the measurements you gave.





If your scale says "it works" instead of providing you with a measured weight, then they are probably broken.
If they provided you with a weight to compare to past weights, could you post them please? If you already did, I must've missed it.

Surely posting up a weight or two takes no more effort than posting up sarcasm. I'd believe your scale too, if you'd post up the weight increase for us.

Grat3fulh3ad

I have a question for you ..

- Have you actually try this method as the OP descriptions on the first pages ?

So while you are having a debates with these people that actually tried the method ( which is against some what sciences and books said) and it worked for them. I would think its only fair if you actually try this method and come back to prove your points while you have the (datas) on hand ( which is yours, not you found somewhere else)

Forget what the books say, do it because of curiosity as a human being ...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

One part of accurate measurement is to ensure it is DRY. Water is extra weight. So throw that into your factors. No matter how you grow, if you weigh your harvest and they are more moist than previous grows....it will not be accurate.

duh. I never said weigh anything wet.

You keep preaching about how be accurate, that is a huge factor in accuracy. And since I use Hygrometers to DRY and Cure I know how moist they actually are....Not a guess! Do you dry and cure this way HEAD? Because if you do not, how do you know you dried it EXACTLY the same as previous grows? Your stats will be flawed.

Quote one place where I've preached about how to be accurate.

Also two or three percent difference in humidity level isn't going to make a statistically significant difference. All I ever asked for was comparable data, not perfectly precise data.

You cannot post any examples of me nitpicking anything to that level.

You keep distorting my perfectly reasonable requests so you can pretend I've been attacking you, or asking for something that is stupid to ask for.

If you're going to keep making definitive statements like "I believe my scales" and "my scales say" then I'm going to keep thinking you must have used your scales to weigh something.

Why do I not have my weight yet? Because I wait for my jars to be come Stable in Humidity before I weigh. Dont need any flawed numbers, because someone like yourself will try to talk shit. Think what you want, but my buds are more dense and I have almost 2x the amount of Jars as normal. That alone speaks words, but like I said " I trust my Scale" Even I will admit that is the only way to be accurate is to compare actual weight.

My point exactly... For you to say you say "I believe the scale, and mine says it works." Then you would have to have already used your scale to weigh the buds.

I was being tongue in cheek about it, but To assert that your scales say it works without being willing to admit to having had weighed your buds, is a paradoxical situation.

Either post up the weights, or quit telling us you believe your scales.

If your buds are not ready to weigh yet, then what have your scales told you?

I apologize, but my buds are more dense this round...so they took longer to dry....but that doesnt mean anything either does it? Be sure to check back in a few days, I will find time to weigh everything out. But it is going to take longer than usual...because there is MORE!

Good deal.

When you have weights, post them... In the mean time just quit telling us you believe your scales, when you haven't weighed any dried buds.




Also it is funny when you quote my post to reply to it, yet reply to none of the things I said.

 

[slowandeasy]

I understand. I'm a new grower and i understand that an experienced grower is not going to put bud that isnt completely dry into a jar to cure.

Who would go to the effort of a whole grow and risk mold?

I dont see why you dont post the results now. Dry weight is dry weight. A week or two cure will make a negligible difference at absolute best.

The things people are saying in this thread do not make any sense. This is the only reason i'm starting to doubt this method. Though i would still like to try it.



slowandeasy, please dont take this as an attack on you. It is mearly an observation and i understand that you could have just made a mistake when typing or meant to say something else but were worked up.

Read the post I wrote before this one, and it will fully explain why I have not posted my weight yet. You will notice how I dry and cure, then it might make sense to you as a new grower.
I wait until I KNOW my jars are stable in humidity before I weigh, and it took longer to dry this time....because there is more bud and it is more dense. Make sense?

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Grat3fulh3ad

I have a question for you ..

- Have you actually try this method as the OP descriptions on the first pages ?

So while you are having a debates with these people that actually tried the method ( which is against some what sciences and books said) and it worked for them. I would think its only fair if you actually try this method and come back to prove your points while you have the (datas) on hand ( which is yours, not you found somewhere else)

Forget what the books say, do it because of curiosity as a human being ...

Can I ask you a question?

Where do you see me debating anything about wether or not it works? I'm asking for their numbers... I'm asking for them to use words according to their english definitions... I'm asking for a consensus protocol as to how exactly it should be done, and a comparable data set from the people who are making the claims... and I posted that I did some experimenting with leaf pruning to expose larf sites without seeing an overall improvement in yield, 8 or 10 years ago.

Nowhere did I say that it was stupid, or that it is never a good tech to practice, or that it doesn't have applications, or anything of the sort.

You can find hundreds of threads here where people making claims post up evidence to support their claims, why should this thread be exempt from people wanting more information.

Why are the people asking for more information being demonized as haters?

What is wrong with clarifying the terms in use?

Are you sure you read my posts, or are you just assuming I'm bashing leaf pruning as a technique?

 

[redspaghetti]

Can I ask you a question?

Where do you see me debating anything about wether or not it works? I'm asking for their numbers... I'm asking for them to use words according to their english definitions... I'm asking for a consensus protocol as to how exactly it should be done, and a comparable data set from the people who are making the claims... and I posted that I did some experimenting with leaf pruning to expose larf sites without seeing an overall improvement in yield, 8 or 10 years ago.

Nowhere did I say that it was stupid, or that it is never a good tech to practice, or that it doesn't have applications, or anything of the sort.

You can find hundreds of threads here where people making claims post up evidence to support their claims, why should this thread be exempt from people wanting more information.

Why are the people asking for more information being demonized as haters?

What is wrong with clarifying the terms in use?

Are you sure you read my posts, or are you just assuming I'm bashing leaf pruning as a technique?

I apologize for assuming you're against the technique.

There are hundreds of datas that this technique work, those are back up claims, now you really want to go to the last detail to believe, well it is best that you give this a try and get those details yourself instead of trying to get people to post the exact claim. You can go a head and call them lair, but who are you really to judge if you have not done it yaself. If you have to see it to believe it, better do it ya self.

I can show you some data that i have done meself with this technique, and it really works!! but i guess you wont believe it either because theres never enough data hehe



cheers,

Please excuse my English, i read your posts and im not sure if you're against or with this idea, or simple you're just trying to get people to use the correct term or your just a troll ?

 

[k33ftr33z]

I would like to try this method but i dont want to wreck my plants. So i thought i would study a bit and the more i study the less i feel comfortable with doing it.




Firstly it just doesn't seem right to me that people would be asking politely since the sart of the topic and no one seems to be interested. This same question has been asked for 6 months and yet no one has done it?

I mean people everywhere just cant wait to make solid contributions. I see side by side experiments all over the site. I see many other types of tutorials and how to's yet no one is willing to take this one on? Maybe it has been done but the results weren't favorable?





k33ftr33z, you say three important things here.

1. unfortunate negativity
2. Let's reset the thread
3. The technique isn't for everyone & there is an art to it.

You have an opportunity right now to make this all right.

1. You can stop the negativity
2. You can reset the thread but it will take more than mear words.
3. You know better than anyone the technique and art behind it.

So why dont you do the side by side? Or you appoint someone you know can do it correctly.

If you say you will do it

1. The negativity will stop instantly
2. The thread will be set on a new path and people will have something positive to talk about and look forward to.
3. You know how to do it correctly and the glory once proven will be yours.


k33ftr33z, deep down you know its all up to you. You cant trust anyone else to do it correctly, especially the people who doubt it will work.
Also you know deep down that you alone are responsable for the negativity and bad karma in this thread.
The first thing you say in the whole thread is "This subject is bound to raise a lot of disagreement"
You have had 6 months to make things right. Its not too late. Be the man, stand up and do it.
After all this is your claim, this is your thread.

Again, this is a lot of hoopla about nothing. I won't even bother responding to El Toker.

There has been ample pictures and more than a enough practitioners other than myself who have been doing this just as long with no ill effects. Since you have yet to even defoliate a single plant you have absolutely no idea of the effect. You need to evaluate your setup for plant density and size. I would say just get growing. Your best side by side is to grow conventionally right now. Do not defoliate. Establish some yield and get familiar with growing. Then while you have 2 months of preparation time for the next cycle, if you have the extra veg space do your side by side. Defoliate one or two and see what happens.

I don't appreciate the demanding stance that something needs to be anymore clarified than it has been already.

Growing is a complex process. No one has ever demanded this kind of proof over the efficacy of so many of the processes, materials, equipment and chemicals used in today's hydro.

For some reason, defoliation is one of those exceptions that seriously challenges the status quo that it offends the hardcore know-it-all's.

First of all, I believe d9nxs has posted his results in a very scientific manner, he went to some trouble and risk to accurately catalog weights. So what is wrong with his data.

Why do I not post data. Well, for good reason...I don't keep any, nor is it wise to post that kind of thing online. If you look at my album, it is not a closet size unit. 'nuff said.

To assume that because I keep no data, that I could not know that my yields are better with defoliation is nonsense. But if you insist that I do not know for sure than there is nothing I can do to satisfy your needs. It is repeated over and over again to just try it yourself and observe. That is what Ed Rosenthal said so take his advice.

As for whether to defoliate in veg or not... I consider veg to be the safe zone for experimentation of this kind. There is nothing at stake other than a plant or two and some veg space if you can spare it. You will not reveal any effect in yield but you will get over your fear of defoliating. No bud at risk. There is no amount of assurance or guidance that has been delivered already in this thread that will replace your own experience. Surely there are enough participants, an overwhelming majority I believe, who have had positive results in their particularly unique practice and setups. Try and learn. That's how we all learned to walk and talk. Carry on.

 

[slowandeasy]

duh. I never said weigh anything wet.Quote one place where I've preached about how to be accurate.

Also two or three percent difference in humidity level isn't going to make a statistically significant difference. All I ever asked for was comparable data, not perfectly precise data.

You cannot post any examples of me nitpicking anything to that level.

You keep distorting my perfectly reasonable requests so you can pretend I've been attacking you, or asking for something that is stupid to ask for.




If you're going to keep making definitive statements like "I believe my scales" and "my scales say" then I'm going to keep thinking you must have used your scales to weigh something.My point exactly... For you to say you say "I believe the scale, and mine says it works." Then you would have to have already used your scale to weigh the buds.

I was being tongue in cheek about it, but To assert that your scales say it works without being willing to admit to having had weighed your buds, is a paradoxical situation.

Either post up the weights, or quit telling us you believe your scales.

If your buds are not ready to weigh yet, then what have your scales told you?


Good deal.

When you have weights, post them... In the mean time just quit telling us you believe your scales, when you haven't weighed any dried buds.

First off I do not have to hurry for you or anyone. Secondly do you use hygrometers in your JARS? If not how do you know your stash is dried the same as last? Your guessing at Best! Everybody dries differently, and everyones opinion on what is DRY is different. My hygrometer, throws those variables out the window.

How are you preaching about accuracy? By demanding side by side grows and comparable data on harvests. Which I agree with you 100 percent. You cannot be accurate without previous harvest numbers. Not knowing how dry your buds actually are is not very accurate now is it? How else can you be for sure?


I was just making a statement that I trust my scale. Everything else is just not accurate. I NEVER said I did a final weight.
If you ever used hygrometers to Dry and Cure in your JARS...which I assume you never have. You would know that it takes a few days to become stable. Your right 2 or 3% is not going to make a difference on the scale...but when your buds are bigger and more dense...they hold more Moisture. At the same time, if you dry more than the last grow...you will have less weight.

You being a very experience grower should know how much big buds and stems hold moisture. Now I could have weighed my stash a couple of days ago, but I like to wait a few days to make sure my jars are stable. I know I have more and I am not in a hurry to Fondle my buds to please you.

When I weigh my harvest I put it directly into smaller jars for my Patients. Like I have said 16x now, I will post the numbers ASAP. I do have a life beyond this website. Stop being a dickhead and demanding proof right now. You are the one with a HUGE chip on your shoulder. I am not the one coming into a thread that was peaceful and putting demands on people. If you do not trust me or anyone else, I could give a shit less.

You are not the GOD of growing, so stop acting like it. Just because something works for others, and it is against your beliefs does not mean you have to be such an Asshole. We are trying to share OUR experiences, nothing more, nothing less. Not ONE of us has claimed it is the best way or only way, just that it helped us out...and in some cased ALOT.

I am sorry you ASSumed I already weighed my harvest...but ASSumming makes an ASS out of U and ME! I will reword my statement just for you.

" I will believe my scale once I weigh my harvest" The question is " Will you believe Me?" That is a hypothetical question, that I already know the answer to.

 

[gdawg]

Chill down sphagetti grat3ful is no troll and not here to start shit.

 

[redspaghetti]

My apologize to all