Defoliation: Hi-Yield Technique?

[k33ftr33z]

If you are a beginner, please do not try any of this if you do not already have healthy, vigorous plants as a matter of routine. This will not make a less vigorous plant stronger. This will not help any situations of weakness. SO please, get your grow together so ALL your starts are ALWAYS strong, vigorous and productive.

My setup is media-free from beginning to end. For me that has removed all the variables and allows me to monitor the stability of the media(nute-solution). This guarantees predictable results cycle to cycle. As long as things are 1000-1500ppm and 5.5-6.2ph it's all good and reliable. Couldn't be easier.

For those looking for side by sides, a media-free or media-neutral setup allows a more scientific evaluation as it sets the variables to static for the crop.

Side by side comparisons are difficult to evaluate for this technique because the leafed out plants perform best with ample space and get a lot taller. In my setup this technique allows plants to be confined to an allotted space of 32" cubed and still produce a half pound+. By keeping the ceiling down to that level and removing all that harmful shading, the premium light can be utilized by the whole canopy.

 

[k33ftr33z]

they are finally starting to believe. fantastic job getting the facts out. most of us that swear by this method get out debated and give up. you have successfully answered the the longest debate in growing TO TRIM LEAVES OR NOT. every plant gets individual attention. I say we brand this the K3 method.

Thanks Bigghead.

I'm probably not the originator of the technique though I may have taken it to a level most dare not attempt. We stuck out the debate enough now to declare legitimacy.

Looking back on the thread it seems there was little more than a handful of naysayers and they relied on anecdotes, beliefs and what they had read. Not a single grower has ever debated this from a foundation of first-hand experience. Even the published guides that allow some room for describing this technique leave it as inconclusive which suggests they just heard about it and included it simply because someone had tried it.

Those of us who have long experience with it have reached conclusions and carry on as the results are positive.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Oh yeah, the handle k33ftr33z is translated with numerical substitution from "keef treez" or "kiftreez" I like growing trees of kif(keef).

 

[k33ftr33z]

can u reitterate that last sentance?
what i mean...
explain the point of releafing, and leafing out.
so i know when to defoliate so i can increase budsetting.



this technique would slow down (add days) to a shorter growing plant? say 8wk kush is now 9wk kush... for the plant to redistribute the hormones?

also-
i read this thread as much as i could but didnt see your suggestion for peak times to defoliate... i.e. i usualy do alot of de-leafing in preflower and flower so 1wk b4 and 2wks after. ..

you seam to wrecklessly strip leafs whenever there blocking lower growth?

in my exp. i find lolly'ng the lower growth off increases weight on top... reduces trim time at the end, AND lowers propensity for mould/rot/death

and in especialy bushy plants, the more i garden the more i realize de-leafing is very helpful. like a haircut.

I think I overlooked some of your query...

As for when to allow releaf. I don't get too scientific about it. Usually if things look leafy, meaning that you see more leaf than budsites when viewing the crop, it may be time for another deleafing. It usually takes a week to 10 days for a plant to releaf to the point that there are 2-4 new leaves that have flattened and greened enough to deleaf again. This repeated releafing process allows that lower growth to benefit from the maturing of the immediate leaf mass. But this releafing must be contained as it will again produce undesirable shade that, of course, must be removed.

As for slowing down the natural budding term... I have not seen this at all. The only time that will be added is for a little additional veg time to add structure and sites.

Again, it sounds like you are not intimidated by all of this so pluck away at your hearts content and guage the results.

 

[vin marioni]

take of ten good fan leaves, lay them on the ground next to each other and measure the amouth of sqaure footage of light that theese ten would have blocked. imo light trumps a fan leaf. ive recently read that after the plants is done strecthing like the 3 week of flower is when u take them off, sound good to me.

large fans are a tool in veg, not in flower, the buds grow there own

 

[TexasToker]

My plants are nearly trimmed by the time harvest day arrives.

That is definitely a benefit. My arthritic hands enjoy much less trimming since I started removing the fans off at ~20 days of flower.

they are finally starting to believe.

There will always be some people that swear it does not work, due to their extreme closed mindedness. A lot still think molasses is a waste...

 

[k33ftr33z]

take of ten good fan leaves, lay them on the ground next to each other and measure the amouth of sqaure footage of light that theese ten would have blocked. imo light trumps a fan leaf. ive recently read that after the plants is done strecthing like the 3 week of flower is when u take them off, sound good to me.

large fans are a tool in veg, not in flower, the buds grow there own

Good point, Vin

As I go about plucking, I think about the kind of calculation you have described. Actually, What I really think of is how INCALCULABLE is the amount of shade that has been removed. It is huge figure by square footage. A filled out space may yield an equal amount of leaf area which when removed is like removing a shield over your lights for the lower and mid-canopy buds.
For those who fear leaf removal, I heard they sell some stuff called shade screen at the depot. If one likes leafy plants they might as well buy some and hang it under their lights to shade out some of that harmful light. Or maybe a parasol for the girls so they don't get sunburnt. Silly.

 

[Dorje113]

Good point, Vin

As I go about plucking, I think about the kind of calculation you have described. Actually, What I really think of is how INCALCULABLE is the amount of shade that has been removed. It is huge figure by square footage. A filled out space may yield an equal amount of leaf area which when removed is like removing a shield over your lights for the lower and mid-canopy buds.
For those who fear leaf removal, I heard they sell some stuff called shade screen at the depot. If one likes leafy plants they might as well buy some and hang it under their lights to shade out some of that harmful light. Or maybe a parasol for the girls so they don't get sunburnt. Silly.

Leaves are mostly transparent (edit, except for green light). Look at them from the bottom with light shining on the tops.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Hormones

Hormones

Some have suggested something about hormones stimulated by leaf removal. That's possible. I don't have that kind of scientific background or knowledge.

What I do know is that from observation it is clear that budsites in veg and buds in flower benefit from the exposure to the premium light that is allowed to penetrate by leaf removal.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Leaves are mostly transparent (edit, except for green light). Look at them from the bottom with light shining on the tops.

True but stack them over one another and they form an opaque canopy very quickly.

 

[Dorje113]

Some have suggested something about hormones stimulated by leaf removal. That's possible. I don't have that kind of scientific background or knowledge.

What I do know is that from observation it is clear that budsites in veg and buds in flower benefit from the exposure to the premium light that is allowed to penetrate by leaf removal.

It's possible, but I'm not sure it matters. When you remove leaves, you unbalance the root / foliage ratio, and the plant gets it back by growing out what it's got left. That'll def. make it bushier, but it'll also slow things down for a few days while the plant reconfigures. By using supercropping and LST the plant can achieve the same growth pattern, but maintains an even momentum through veg. At least that's my take so far... as far as flowering, yeah, I believe the fans become less important as the plant goes deeper into flowering and I already prune fans at this point, but maybe I'll try going a little further with it so most of the fans are gone by the time they are done....

 

[!!!]

OK so to recap.. the basic procedure is:

At 6 inches tall, pluck off some leaves.

Do this periodically (every 2-3 weeks or when leaves get shady)

Stop and let leaves grow out before flowering and until stretch ends.

After stretch, defoliate severely (and then again after 2-3 weeks or when leaves get shady)


I have some questions but first - is the above correct?

 

[hamsapaw]

Great thread. My thinking was way too uptight about this. I tried it on half my veg room a week ago even though I was skeptical. I was so pleased I went and cleared out the rest last night. Plants really seem happy about the increased airflow and light. Thanks for sharing.

 

[puff adder]

I'm taking more fan leaves than I have in the past.

I keep a good environment, filtered intakes, humidity 50% or lower usually, 75 degree temps. This has probably helped in the past, but this last run I got powdery mildew for the first time.
Usually things get pretty tight in my rooms, I always tried to take as few fan leaves as possible. The plants always grew into each other to some extent, making for just OK ventilation, luckily I use many oscillating fans, but after getting PM this run, I really needed to open things up so the PM didn't overtake the room.
At 30 days flowering I took almost all the fan leaves off every plant because I needed to open things up. This stalled them for a few days, but they finished well, with NO larf/fluff. Even the lower buds were filled out and useable.

In my new room I've taken many fan leaves in veg, and lollipopped less aggressively. Direct light is getting down to the lowest budsites. I am sure these will be bigger and useable with the extra light.

So, as well as increased yield hopefully, another benefit of taking fan leaves is the extra ventilation and air movement.

It makes it a little easier on my dehumidifier too, less fans made for a little less transpiration.

 

[Yankee Grower]

Leaves are mostly transparent (edit, except for green light). Look at them from the bottom with light shining on the tops.

As light passes through the canopy there's more in the infrared spectrum. Plants sense this and stretch to compete for space. Would you rather have your plants putting energy into stretching or bud formation?

 

[jrosek]

Here is a couple old old pics from another great thread here at ic. these girls were stripped at day 14 flower and again around 40ish... even back then the " proof was in the pudding "

https://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/39653SANY0457.JPG
https://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/39653SANY0479.JPG
https://www.icmag.com/gallery/data/500/39653SANY0477.JPG

Great job on this thread K33... wish i still had the drive to be as definitive as you are... but then again, i dont have to be with you on board! hahahaha

 

[wolfeman]

This might be a silly question...But in this picture I was wondering if you topped these prior to defoliating or was it done at the same time?

It seems to me that topping a week or so before plucking would stimulate new growth that can trimmed later; resulting in more future bud sites. Yes...no?

Here are a couple of veg individuals getting the treatment. They, too, had been stripped less than a week ago.

 

[knna]

Leaves are mostly transparent (edit, except for green light). Look at them from the bottom with light shining on the tops.

Not true. Some light pass throught them, but its a very small part, about 10-15% (green only reflects back 3-4% more on average than other colors).

I think if you can have leafs and the bud well lit, its the perfect situation. But it need some conditions that usually nobody has indoor. Thus we use many different techniques to overcome the problem trying to get better yields. Probably what technique works better depends of many factors: light density used, how its delivered, strains used, density of plants (crowding of the grow space) and so on. This defoliation technique is a nice way to overcome the problem, for sure fan leaves are not required for producing big buds, but for sure too that if you have them and buds are not shaded, they will grow a little more. But if by defoliating you can pack more plants on a given space producing same or still a little less (for each plant) it would worth doing it.

I agree Delta, this is being like mythbusters. It seemed during long time that taken out leaves was like a grower sin. But it can be done, and it can be done extensively as some growers showed in this thread and get very good results. In general, I prefer to use side lighting instead of pruning leaves as a way to get buds well lit, but on some situations deleafing total or partially can be very useful, especially when plant phenotype is not planophile (leaves horizontal to ground, give or take). What is clear to me is a bud not well lit is a waste, so we must manage to avoid it: cutting out the full branch, deleafing or adding light on the exact point.

 

[k33ftr33z]

This might be a silly question...But in this picture I was wondering if you topped these prior to defoliating or was it done at the same time?

It seems to me that topping a week or so before plucking would stimulate new growth that can trimmed later; resulting in more future bud sites. Yes...no?

These had been topped at about 6" as evidenced by the truncated leader. Within a few days of topping the couple of pairs of fans are removed as the branches emerge. The first couple of pairs of fans on the branches are removed when they flatten out but without cutting the secondary leaders. Leaves are then removed after each subsequent leaf-out cycle(1-2weeks) A leaf-out or releaf cycle allows 2-3 pair of fans to develop.

The plant on the left is a little underdeveloped. One on the right a ready for bud. One in the middle is close.

The great thing about this method is that over-bushiness is usually not a problem as long as the leaves are aggressively removed at regular intervals. In the long run it is better to err on the side of over-vegging in my setup. I got tired of having to cut the threshold so close in SOG so I went to few large individuals instead of a hundred plantlets. By slightly overvegging one can avoid the pitfalls of under production or having a couple of dominators overtaking the laggers.

 

[k33ftr33z]

Plant height=premium light zone

Plant height=premium light zone

My efforts at training are driven by a desire to have as many of the buds as possible finish out in the zone of premium light. That zone I will define as loosely 12"-30" beneath the lamps. Even shallower with 400w. The objective is to train all the bud to have an unobstructed exposure within that zone. Allowing plants to get much taller than about 3' only allows too much bud to fall below this zone and widens the zone populated by the buds. By widening this production zone and outstretching the lower bud, diminished returns can occur. It seems that to create the sweet spot by structuring plants to spread out horizontally within this shallow zone of premium light can increase overall production and eliminate either poorly developing buds or the regressive method of removing producing sites. I call this regressive because too many producing sites is a sure sign of over-vegging.