Can't tell if you have root rot or the brown slime algae, come on in ?!

[richyrich]

Ok,

You were wright bro, i misspelled , i did an fact mean Rhizoctonia.
What i gathered from the universities reports was nothing... they just gave me a general class of infection that could add up to anything... complete waste of time in my opinion.

As far as the color you mentioned? yes, it is brownish red, not slimy and smells normal.

I have read those descriptions in length many times over the last few yrs, trying to figure out what has been going on..

i have not been able to narrow it down? however.. whatever the ridomil gold is designed to kill is working well... see next post!

Alrighty, that helps. We already know pythium is used just like a catch all term, but they listed Rhizoctonia. That is specific, so l look to be on target again. Let's focus our attention mainly on this mini monster, but not lose sight of the others. There is always the chance that one could have more than one critter infecting at the same time. With fungal type problems, the treatments have to be target specific when buying things off the shelf.

As I mentioned previously, when I reviewed Ridomil Gold, I said it sounded like some good stuff and the horticulture industry uses it. Those are mighty fine roots poking out of the pot. That just shows how crops like your boys are doomed even when treated with ridomil. I have the presumption a custom hydro specific tea would have kept away the monster from taking over his crop in the beginning even with the spores. Them spores, we will get rid of them on his next round coming up. Another thing we know nearly for sure is your water source is good like you had already said. Just them f'n spores in the air taking olympic dives into your rez's.

Did you use the ridomil once on that potted plant? Or have you been using it in some kind of regimen with the other stuff you listed?

A few questions I had:

What lab did you send your specimen to?
How much did they charge?
What was the turn around time?
What was the name of the test ordered?

What should have been done was a plate count test. They go by names like:
Aerobic Plate Count
Anaerobic Plate Count
Acid Tolerant Microrganisms
Enterobacter sakazakii
Colfirm and E. coli MPN
Enterobacteriaceae Plate Count
Lactic Acid Bacteria
Mold Air Plate
Pseudomonas Plate Count
Yeast and Mold Plate Cultural
Spore Count
etc.

I had wanted a specimen from you earlier so I could do my own plate count and experiment with. Though, I can scratch the experimentation and I could try to do a spore plate count for you. I'd also try to do an aerobic and anaerobic plate count at the same time. I just need a specimen of infected roots. If you want me to, I'll have to send you a sterile specimen container. Your boys roots should do, lol.

 

[richyrich]

doneit,

What specific information were you seeking from the ridomil company. Garden use info, or info on the products itself?

About the leaf tip issue, when did that start? Before ridomil or after? It first appears to be a slight case of overfert, but it could be the ridomil or other products having a negative affect... my early assumptions.

Oh, last question I forgot to ask prior. Did you use Ridomil as a fogger or did it come in a liquid bottle? I'm going to look into it more so I need to know.

 

[doneit]

I am wondering how long it stays systemic to the plant, if and when it should be re-applied, also if tolerance will be an issue.
I used the liquid, not sure where he got it from... rosmania i think?
I applied the ridomil gold sl to the rooted cuts in soil mix before transplanted to solo cups, they were rooted for 3 days when i brought em..

have not re-applied since, been 20 days or so... just been using the shock/zone in the feed.

 

[paperchaser825]

As far as running recirculating, that opens you up to infection to all your plants in the future. That's just fyi. You may never get infected and hopefully so. I use to run that way before the slime and it was great.

DWC was the first way I ever grew and it's awesome. If you have no root infections, go for it and run aquashield. It benefits some. Usually it lets you get away with slightly higher water temps but that is not an issue for you if you have that chiller.

I would suggest a hydro specific tea, of course, to blow them roots out for a bigger yield, increased up-feed by the plants, and good ol' prevention from root infections. Aquashield alone will not provide for all of that.

Btw, I can almost guarantee you could lose the chiller if you ran a hydro specific tea as long as your water temps don't go past around 78 F. In such a scenario, the roots will grow faster as seen in several ez cloner posts with tea incorporated running high water temps. I would also increase the amount of air pumped into the rez since a higher water temp will mean the water will hold less oxygen saturation.

The temps would definately be higher than that with no chiller as I run a sealed room with CO2 at higher temps. Can you recommend a specific hydro regime or is the one listed here the way to go?

 

[richyrich]

The temps would definately be higher than that with no chiller as I run a sealed room with CO2 at higher temps. Can you recommend a specific hydro regime or is the one listed here the way to go?

Yes they surely would be in a sealed room. Are your lights air cooled?

In a sealed room and the heat build up you need the chiller. Stay the way you are. Watch out for spore build up in a sealed room if you ever get infected. You can use the tea or aquashield if you choose. There is some benefit from aquashield alone and lots with a tea.

 

[richyrich]

I am wondering how long it stays systemic to the plant, if and when it should be re-applied, also if tolerance will be an issue.
I used the liquid, not sure where he got it from... rosmania i think?
I applied the ridomil gold sl to the rooted cuts in soil mix before transplanted to solo cups, they were rooted for 3 days when i brought em..

have not re-applied since, been 20 days or so... just been using the shock/zone in the feed.

I'll try to look into the ridomil specifics since I want to know myself.

 

[doneit]

plz do... i havent had much luck... tried to call the regional manager for my area as instructed.. he was clueless, gave me another # to call, left a message 3 hrs ago....

Thanks man!

 

[richyrich]

Copy and pasted from several websites:

Product Identifier: RIDOMIL GOLD® 480SL Fungicide
Registration Number: 28474 (Pest Control Products Act)
Chemical Class: Phenylamide Fungicide
Active Ingredient(%): Metalaxyl-M (45.3 %)
{Metalaxyl-M is the active isomer of metalaxyl.}
Chemical Name: Methyl N-(2,6-dimethylphenyl)-N-(methoxyacetyl)-D-alaninate

Symptoms of Acute Exposure
Harmful or fatal if swallowed. Causes eye and skin irritation.
Hazardous Decomposition Products
Can decompose at high temperatures and form toxic gases.
Acute toxicity/Irritation Studies (Finished Product):
Ingestion: Moderate AcuteToxicity
Oral (LD50 Rat): 550 mg/kg body weight
Dermal: Low AcuteToxicity
Dermal (LD50 Rabbit): > 2,020 mg/kg body weight
Inhalation: Low AcuteToxicity
Inhalation (LC50 Rat): > 5.58 mg/L air - 4 hours
Eye Contact: Moderately Irritating (Rabbit)
Skin Contact: Slightly Irritating (Rabbit)
Skin Sensitization: Not a Sensitizer (Guinea Pig)
Reproductive/Developmental Effects
Metalaxyl-M Technical: None observed.

Chronic/Subchronic Toxicity Studies
Metalaxyl-M Technical: Liver effects at high dose levels.
Carcinogenicity
Metalaxyl-M Technical: None observed.
Target Organs

Active Ingredients
Metalaxyl-M Technical: Liver.
Inert Ingredients
2-Heptanone: Eye.
Acetophenone: Not Applicable.
Propylene Glycol: CNS, skin, eye, kidney, liver.

Summary of Effects
RIDOMIL GOLD 480SL is a fungicide for the systemic control of several fungal pathogens in various crops and fruits. The active ingredient, metalaxyl-M, is practically non-toxic to slightly toxic to fish, birds, aquatic invertebrates and insects (bees).

Quadris Ridomil Gold SL is a broad-spectrum preventative fungicide with systemic properties for control of many soil-borne plant diseases. All applications should be made according to the use directions that follow.

Quadris Ridomil Gold SL can provide control of many soil-borne diseases when applied as an in-furrow application at planting. In-furrow applications will provide control of pre- or postemergence damping off
and diseases that infect plants at the soil-plant interface.
Chemigation

Do not apply this product through any type of irrigation equipment.
Quadris Ridomil Gold SL Fungicide is a mixture of a Group 4 (mefenoxam) and a Group 11 (azoxystrobin) fungicide: Quadris Ridomil Gold SL has two modes of action: (1) Phenylamides affects RNA Synthesis [Group 4], and (2) inhibitor of the Qo (quinone outside) site within the electron transport system (QoI) as well as disrupting membrane synthesis by blocking demethylation [Group 11].

Fungal pathogens can develop resistance to products with the same mode of action when used repeatedly. Because resistance development cannot be predicted, use of this product should conform to resistance management strategies established for the crop and use area. Consult your local or State agricultural authorities for resistance management strategies that are complementary to those in this label. Resistance management strategies may include rotating and/or tank-mixing with products having different modes of action or limiting the total number of applications per season.

Syngenta Crop Protection encourages responsible resistance management to ensure effective long-term control of the fungal diseases on this label.
Quadris Ridomil Gold SL should not be alternated or tank mixed with any fungicide to which resistance has already developed.

INTEGRATED PEST (DISEASE) MANAGEMENT
Quadris Ridomil Gold SL should be integrated into an overall disease and pest management strategy whenever the use of a fungicide is required. Cultural practices known to reduce disease development should be
followed.

The SPECIFIC USE DIRECTIONS section in this label identifies specific IPM recommendations for each crop. Consult your local agricultural authorities for additional IPM strategies established for your
area.
Apply Quadris Ridomil Gold SL as an in-furrow spray in 3-15 gals. of water per acre at planting. Mount the spray nozzle so the spray is directed into the furrow just before the seed are covered. Quadris Ridomil Gold SL is compatible with many commonly used fungicides, liquid fertilizers, herbicides, insecticides and biological control products. If tank mixes are desired, observe all directions, precautions, and limitations on labeling of all products used. Consult compatibility charts or your local or state agricultural
authorities for compatibility information. Conduct a physical compatibility test as described in the paragraph below before making a field application.
Do not combine Quadris Ridomil Gold SL in the spray tank with pesticides, surfactants or fertilizers, unless compatibility charts or your own prior use has shown that the combination is physically compatible, effective
and non-injurious under your conditions of use. If physical compatibility is unknown, the following procedure should be followed: Pour the recommended proportions of the products into a suitable container
of water, mix thoroughly and allow to stand at least twenty (20) minutes. If the combination remains mixed or can be re-mixed readily, the mixture is considered physically compatible.


Azoxystrobin can be persistent for several months or longer. Azoxystrobin has degradation products which have properties similar to chemicals which are known to leach through soil to groundwater under certain conditions as a result of agricultural use. Mefenoxam is known to
leach through soil into groundwater under certain conditions as a result of
agricultural use.

Ridomil Gold/generic use may cause plant stunting if too concentrated.
Ridomil Gold acts against Phytophthora inside the plant and not in the soil. The focus of Ridomil application should be on supplying a sufficient reservoir of fungicide to the plants so that the fungicide can be taken up as early as possible after planting and so that this uptake can continue for as long as possible.

Apply Ridomil Gold on a broadcast basis or apply 0.25 pt/1,000 linear ft of row in a 3 foot band at the base of the plant before plants start to grow in the spring. Two additional applications may be made to coincide with periods most favorable for root rot development.

Lab metabolism half-life: 73.5 Days
Lab soil photolysis half-life: 248 Days

Mefenoxam is the active isomer in metalaxyl. Products containing mefenoxam can be applied at lower product rates than those containing metalaxyl, with the same disease control, because only the active isomer is contained in the product.

The environmental fate information is based on mefenoxam and metalaxyl data. This provides conservative estimates of risk to the environment for mefenoxam, which has a shorter soil half-life and is applied at lower rates than metalaxyl. Most of the ecotoxicological data are from mefenoxam studies.

Mefenoxam- and/or metalaxyl-containing products have successfully controlled plant diseases caused by Oomycetes since 1979, without harm to crops, non-target organisms, or the environment.

The safety of a chemical in the environment and potential risk to non-target plants and animals is determined not only by the inherent toxicity of a chemical to these species but also by the level of exposure that they experience. Exposure is determined by the application rate and the fate of the chemical in the environment. In the absence of exposure, there is no opportunity for toxicological effects.

In the terrestrial environment, mefenoxam is moderately stable under normal environmental conditions. The primary routes of dissipation in surface soil are aerobic soil metabolism from microbial degradation and uptake by plants. Hydrolysis, photolysis (breakdown by sunlight) and volatilization are not significant routes of breakdown. The major breakdown product (degradate, metabolite) of mefenoxam is further broken down to bound material and carbon dioxide by aerobic soil metabolism, and thus does not accumulate in the soil. Plants rapidly degrade mefenoxam to multiple metabolites. Mefenoxam and its breakdown products are very water soluble, and therefore can potentially leach to groundwater, especially in sandy soils and those low in organic matter. Mobility is greatly reduced in finer-textured soils where some adsorption to clay occurs.

Results from toxicity studies show that mefenoxam is of low toxicity to birds, mammals, and insects, and will not bioaccumulate. It will not harm non-target plants. The biological activity of the major metabolites of mefenoxam has been evaluated and indicates that there is no ecotoxicological concern with these compounds. Based on a combination of low exposure and toxicity, it can be concluded that mefenoxam will have minimal risk to the terrestrial environment.

Mefenoxam has the potential to reach surface waters through runoff. In the aquatic environment, mefenoxam degrades moderately under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions by microbial degradation. There is no bioaccumulation potential in fish or other aquatic organisms. Mefenoxam is not toxic to aquatic plants and fish and only moderately toxic to some aquatic invertebrates. These factors combined with low application rates and aquatic dissipation result in minimal risk to non-target species in the aquatic environment.

Q. Why do growers use mefenoxam based products?
A. Mefenoxam has been shown to provide a high level of efficacy against fungi in the Oomycete class, including Pythium spp., Phytophthora spp., and downy mildews, at very low rates. Since it moves systemically within plants, mefenoxam provides more uniform distribution than is normally achieved with protectant sprays. The clear advantage compared to metalaxyl is that comparable performance can be achieved at much lower rates. For foliar application, mefenoxam is always applied in premixes that are effective tools against the development of resistant pathogens.

Q. Does mefenoxam bind to plant foliage or to soil after application?
A. Mefenoxam is rapidly absorbed and degraded in plants. In soil, mefenoxam binds to organic matter and clay particles.

Q. Is mefenoxam degraded in soil and in plants after application? What is the method of degradation ?
A. Yes. In soil, mefenoxam is degraded mainly by aerobic microbial metabolism, ultimately to carbon dioxide. Degradation rate in soil increases with soil microbial activity, which is correlated to organic matter and clay content. Persistence of mefenoxam in soil is not directly correlated with soil abiotic properties such as pH or soil texture. Mefenoxam is taken up by plants and broken down. The degradation products of mefenoxam in and on plants are of no toxicological concern and have no significant fungicidal activity.

Q. How is mefenoxam degraded if it enters water bodies?
A. Once mefenoxam has absorbed to sediment, it degrades moderately under both aerobic and anaerobic conditions, mediated by microbial processes.

Q. Can mefenoxam accumulate in the sediment of water bodies and have an adverse effect on aquatic life?
A. No. The very low amounts of mefenoxam which would reach water bodies from typical off-target movement will not accumulate in the sediment nor adversely affect aquatic life.

Q. How safe is mefenoxam to birds, insects, earthworms, and other animals?
A. Mefenoxam has an excellent ecotoxicological profile. The toxicity of mefenoxam to birds, insects, earthworms, and mammals is low and this, combined with low use rates, means that mefenoxam presents negligible risk to these organisms. In fact, members of this class of chemistry have been shown to be beneficial to root-colonizing organisms that aid in nutrient uptake.

Q. Is there a risk of pathogens developing resistance to mefenoxam?
A. Mefenoxam has the same risk of resistance development in target pathogens as other phenylamides. For foliar applications, mefenoxam is sold as a prepack with other fungicides as a resistance management strategy. As a soil treatment, generally only one application of mefenoxam is needed per season, making the potential for resistance development significantly less.

Q. What Best Management Practices (BMPS) should an applicator and/or grower adopt when using pesticides like mefenoxam?
A. In addition to following all label directions, best management practices will benefit the environment and maximize effectiveness of mefenoxam. Use disease resistant crop varieties. Manage irrigation and other cultural practices in ways that minimize disease development in the specific crop. Establish buffer setbacks from water bodies and apply mefenoxam when weather conditions do not favor drift or runoff. In areas with shallow water tables and permeable (sandy, low organic matter) soils, utilize well protection techniques, irrigation management, weather forecasts, and IPM to reduce the chance of groundwater contamination. For foliar applications, use prepacks or tank mixtures with other modes of action to impede the development of resistant strains, and rotate to other fungicides when the potential for resistance is significant.

Q. How can a grower use mefenoxam in a manner that is consistent with sustainable agriculture practices (IPM, ICM, sensitivity management, etc)?
A. Products containing mefenoxam should always be used as part of an integrated crop-specific disease management program, which includes crop rotation, resistance management, sanitation, fertilization and water management. The recommended rates should always be used, because reduced rates may contribute to the development of resistant strains. The absence of negative effects on beneficials makes mefenoxam an excellent candidate for inclusion in IPM programs.

For drenching 1/2 pint of Ridomil Gold with 100 gals. of water.

Three applications per crop season are recommended. Make 1 application after transplanting followed by an additional application 30 days before harvesting or at set of fruit. A third application may be made during the harvest season.

Apply mefenoxam (Ridomil Gold or Ultra Flourish) shortly after transplanting, 21 and 42 days later.

 

[richyrich]

Ridomil Gold SL has a long half life longer than a bloom cycle. It says the plants uptake it an degrade it quickly. I doubt that part because the dosing schedules I could find have applications for weeks apart so that tells me its in the plant a long time. It certainly is not OMRI (Organics Materials Review Institute) certified. So those of you who do not want chems in your plants I would advise to stay away from this product. If you have no other choice then use it with this knowledge. We are already most likely eating it in our fruits and veges from the markets since it is used by farmers. Shit they feed us GMO garbage so what do they care.

 

[paperchaser825]

Yes they surely would be in a sealed room. Are your lights air cooled?

In a sealed room and the heat build up you need the chiller. Stay the way you are. Watch out for spore build up in a sealed room if you ever get infected. You can use the tea or aquashield if you choose. There is some benefit from aquashield alone and lots with a tea.

Light is indeed air-cooled and it's a cooltube to boot with 10k btu in a small 6x6 cabinet. Rot and slime are not my issue. I merely want to replicate the roots I see post tea treatment. Those roots are phenomenal. Also, still am unsure if I am supposed to be using the tea listed here or some other tea for RDWC specifically.

 

[richyrich]

doneit,

You wanted to know the following:

"I am wondering how long it stays systemic to the plant, if and when it should be re-applied, also if tolerance will be an issue."


The metabolism half life is 73.5 days. That means half of the product is gone in that amount of days. In another 73.5 days, half of the half is gone; and, that continues until its all gone. As you can see, that is a very long time.

They state, "Mefenoxam is rapidly absorbed and degraded in plants. In soil, mefenoxam binds to organic matter and clay particles. Mefenoxam is taken up by plants and broken down. The degradation products of mefenoxam in and on plants are of no toxicological concern and have no significant fungicidal activity. Plants rapidly degrade mefenoxam to multiple metabolites."

Because of that long half life, I'm not buying the rapid degradation bit. I very well may be wrong though.

Re resistance they state, "Mefenoxam has the same risk of resistance development in target pathogens as other phenylamides. For foliar applications, mefenoxam is sold as a prepack with other fungicides as a resistance management strategy. As a soil treatment, generally only one application of mefenoxam is needed per season, making the potential for resistance development significantly less."

Re dosing I found two application schedules for vegetables. I take it would be very similar for your purposes.

Three applications per crop season are recommended. Make 1 application after transplanting followed by an additional application 30 days before harvesting or at set of fruit. A third application may be made during the harvest season.

Apply mefenoxam (Ridomil Gold) shortly after transplanting, 21 and 42 days later.

I think this covers what you wanted to know.

 

[richyrich]

plz do... i havent had much luck... tried to call the regional manager for my area as instructed.. he was clueless, gave me another # to call, left a message 3 hrs ago....

Thanks man!

Sure thing...

Wtf, that guy should know his companies products. Just shows more and more people are becoming more brainless.

 

[richyrich]

Light is indeed air-cooled and it's a cooltube to boot with 10k btu in a small 6x6 cabinet. Rot and slime are not my issue. I merely want to replicate the roots I see post tea treatment. Those roots are phenomenal. Also, still am unsure if I am supposed to be using the tea listed here or some other tea for RDWC specifically.

You are good then. I had cool tubes in the beginning too. Reminds me of my first grow ever, hehe. Gotcha on the rot and slime. I just threw that out there for the future. But you have been reading here so you are already aware. Thats good for the future.

Aquashield alone is not going to give you the awesome explosive hydro tea roots.

My advise, just make my original tea recipe in my signature. Or, since you have no infection, go with just ewc and/or ancient forest and great white. Make sure the ewc or ancient forest is not old stock. Add the others if you want. You will get the roots with just those products promised as long as you follow the brewing instructions. If you want to put out the money, a bottle of root excelurator is worth it.

MAKE SURE your water does not contain chlorine or chloramines from the tap. If you start with water with those in it you are going to kill the microbes before the brew even gets going. I think some people out there do this and then say the tea doesn't work. That's not aimed at anyone specific, just a generalization. Either use RO water or bubble that water for a minimum of 24 hours. The longer the better.

The same goes for topping up and changing your rez's. You cannot add water that is chlorinated or chloramined. It will kill your microherd army.

 

[richyrich]

I've been thinking of putting out a website to offer some of the other things I have been working on. For instance, I have a natural product that binds up that crap in the water which will allow you to use the water immediately. It makes things a lot easier and saves time when doing the tea thing. My peeps have been using my stuff for a while now and love it. I never thought of going the sales route on stuff I do more of as a hobby. My actual career doesn't afford me the time to run a business. I'll probably license the stuff out, so it can be available to those wanting. Just fyi...

 

[paperchaser825]

You are good then. I had cool tubes in the beginning too. Reminds me of my first grow ever, hehe. Gotcha on the rot and slime. I just threw that out there for the future. But you have been reading here so you are already aware. Thats good for the future.

Aquashield alone is not going to give you the awesome explosive hydro tea roots.

My advise, just make my original tea recipe in my signature. Or, since you have no infection, go with just ewc and/or ancient forest and great white. Make sure the ewc or ancient forest is not old stock. Add the others if you want. You will get the roots with just those products promised as long as you follow the brewing instructions. If you want to put out the money, a bottle of root excelurator is worth it.

MAKE SURE your water does not contain chlorine or chloramines from the tap. If you start with water with those in it you are going to kill the microbes before the brew even gets going. I think some people out there do this and then say the tea doesn't work. That's not aimed at anyone specific, just a generalization. Either use RO water or bubble that water for a minimum of 24 hours. The longer the better.

The same goes for topping up and changing your rez's. You cannot add water that is chlorinated or chloramined. It will kill your microherd army.

So roots excel IS a bottled alternative for ME specifically because I don't have to fight the brownzies?

 

[richyrich]

So roots excel IS a bottled alternative for ME specifically because I don't have to fight the brownzies?

Root excel alone is not an alternative to a hydro tea. It's a stand alone product, but a damn good one. It will not do what the tea does by itself. If you want what you may have seen in growers testimonials and pix then you want to make tea.

If I ever had to recommend only one product for roots, it's definitely root excel. A small can is like 80 bucks, but it will last long in your sized grow. Don't go for the knock off brands either. I've tried them and they don't compare. I had one go rancid (anaerobic) in just a couple of months and the can was bulging. A little longer and it would of blown. I think that was the humboldt roots brand. Never had a problem with roots excel even after months of sitting.

 

[richyrich]

Gotta go to the workshop for the rest of the evening now...

 

[paperchaser825]

I think I'm going to try Roots and if that doesn't satisfy me I'm going with the full tea. Thanks for you help by the way. Much rep.

 

[richyrich]

I think I'm going to try Roots and if that doesn't satisfy me I'm going with the full tea. Thanks for you help by the way. Much rep.

Anytime... that's what I made this thread for. You will not be disappointed with the root excel. You know if you want, I have more tea again. PM me a safe addy and I'll mail you some for free. That way you can see what it's all about and judge it for yourself before you spend a lot of paper. I got the paper covered on the shipping too. It ain't much. I'm heading to the post office in a few hours.

 

[lonetoker]

so i just read this entire thread because im trying to figure out if i have pythium. i have two plants growing in a dwc system and one took a turn for the worst about a week ago. the roots stoppped growing and were brown but not slimey and my plant completely wilted up on and some of the fan leaves dried up on me. when i noticed i immediately cleaned out my res with bleach and my stones airline and thermometer. i also rinsed off the root to get the heavy brown stuff out which looked like algae. after the clean up i went out and bought some voodoo juice from A.N. and great white and i refilled my res with fresh nutes. i live in a small apartment where brewing the ewc tea is not an option for me at this time. after adding the voodoo juice and great white i noticed an explosion in root growth with lots of laterals coming out as well. my plant started to look healthy and happy again. my roots are still somewhat brown. can someone offer and good tips for me