can neem seed meal influence taste?

[EclipseFour20]

Weird, Thanks for sharing your rates...and no one is discounting the benefits of Neem--just trying to determine if it influences the taste of cannabis (the topic of this thread).

And my logic says...if something it is in the plant (be it systemic or residual)--then detectable levels most likely will be in the flower. This study is rather definitive proof that Neem has systemic abilities and that root applications are almost as powerful as foliar sprays.

Now...what about cannabis? Does neem influence the taste? I don't think we really know.


From http://www.natureneem.com/index_fichiers/Neem_Seed_cake.htm
Content of neem seed cake (on Average)

Typical Analytical results may slightly vary depending upon the batches or production

Azadirachtin : min 1000ppm (0.1%) Nimbin : min 850 ppm (0.085%)

Salanin : min 1500 ppm (0.15%) Moisture content : NMT 10 %

Nitrogen : min 4.0% Phosphorus : 3.0%

Potassium : 1.67% Carbon : 1.2%

Sulphur : 1.2% Calcium : 0.77%

Magnesium : 0.75%

 

[EclipseFour20]

Go to this link to request a copy of the study we have been discussing-- https://cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/email-pdf/22507?ref=L3B1YmxpY2F0aW9ucz9pZD0yMjUwNw== The Canadian Forest Service will email a pdf version at no cost.

Uptake, translocation, persistence and fate of azadirachtin in aspen plants (Populus tremuloides Michx.) and its effect on pestiferous two-spotted spider mite (Tetranychus urticae Koch). 1995. Sundaram, K.M.S.; Campbell, R.A.; Sloane, L.; Studens, J.A. Crop Protection 14(5): 415-421.

 

[rasputin]

u can also use protekt to emulsify it and at the same time the silica will help ur plant to have thicker steams and resist pests,disease and drought better..a win win

Add protekt and neem together (i use shotglass), mix until emulsified.

Potassium silicate does not emulsify neem oil.

Polysorbate 80. Use that or something like it to emulsify neem.

Thank spurr for that little tid bit.

 

[Mikell]

Potassium silicate does not emulsify neem oil.

Polysorbate 80. Use that or something like it to emulsify neem.

Thank spurr for that little tid bit.

Made that mistake twice before starting to watch emulsions re: Mad Librettist. Aloe also failed like a motherfugger (bottled liquid, not dry extract). Haven't had a problem since I started using soap, but intend to order some yucca and lecithin to play with. Carn't rely on soap for everything.

 

[waveguide]

Potassium silicate does not emulsify neem oil.

actually, it does.. amazing when it does. but i haven't been able to pin down when that is.

hearing this, i've occasionally mixed, in a 4 oz. hand sprayer, a bit of water, a bit of ksil, then a bit of neem oil.. most of the time i do this it's a greasy mess, but twice, once i know on a cold day, the oil goes in and with a flick of the wrist the lot magically mixes.. don't even need to shake it twice.

i wish i knew what the secret to that was.

now i pour the oil in when i mix the soil. never thought the taste was affected.

 

[Weird]

Weird, Thanks for sharing your rates...and no one is discounting the benefits of Neem--just trying to determine if it influences the taste of cannabis (the topic of this thread).

And my logic says...if something it is in the plant (be it systemic or residual)--then detectable levels most likely will be in the flower. This study is rather definitive proof that Neem has systemic abilities and that root applications are almost as powerful as foliar sprays.

Now...what about cannabis? Does neem influence the taste? I don't think we really know.

You are not understanding how important presentation and application are

Do these things,

get powdered aztadirachtin and smell it, put it on your plants a week before you harvest and tell me what your plants taste like

do the same with neem oil, but spray it on your plants a few days before harvest and tell me what it tastes like

do a neem oil soak on another plant and test it a week before harvest and do the same for neem cake.

Then apply then all within pre harvest and over a 60 day window and get back to me on how those applications affect the smoke differently

but I simply don't think it is the aztadirachtin ITSELF has a discernible taste/smell it imparts to the plant.

I think most certain can neem oil on foliar application, have heard too many people complain of just that to test it myself. But as the thread states, I don't think neem meal applied properly (root zone via teas and topdress) are gonna impart taste to the plant

 

[Luther Burbank]

The oil itself is supposed to have a 48h dispersal time in foliar use. After that the exposure to light and air should have broken it down completely.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Weird,

To think one form of neem is "evil" (powder) and while another form is "good" (cake) is your preference, but since both contain aztadirachtin, and since aztadirachtin is systemic, and since aztadirachtin is able to "translocate" throughout the plant...then I submit this study is a valid study of the "uptake and fate of aztadirachtin" (irregardless of form of neem).

Fact: Around 10 days after application there is a peak in plant residue...and then a significant decrease such that 50 days after application--residue in roots was 7.5% of peak concentration, 22.1% in foliage and 22.3% in stem.

If you produce some science to support your belief that certain forms of neem (cake vs powder) have different uptake and fate characteristics that would be great! Until then, I say we go with "science" not "feelings". The simple conclusion is--50 days after a soil application of aztadirachtin there is a significant level of residue remaining in the plant (period).

Logic says--if something is in the plant (aztadirachtin residue) at the time of harvest, then flowers should also have detectable levels of aztadirachtin. Therefor, all the other properties of Neem (many we do not fully understand) could also reside in harvested flowers. Anecdotal evidence is nice--but not conclusive....and the "I thinks" are nothing but opinions, but a science experiment/study that has not been refuted is rather powerful in my book.

Remember--"The main limonoid that it contains is azadirachtin but it also contains azadiradione, fraxinellone, nimbin, salannin, salannol, vepinin, vilasinin, etc. There are three other active constituents in the oil - nimbin, nimbidin and nimbinene plus bitter principles, tannins, flavonoids and sesquiterpene derivatives."

What about the items in bold? What do we know how they effect they influence "taste"? Like I said, "we don't know".

 

[EclipseFour20]

...double post

 

[EclipseFour20]

...triple post?

 

[Weird]

Weird,

To think one form of neem is "evil" (powder) and while another form is "good" (cake) is your preference, but since both contain aztadirachtin, and since aztadirachtin is systemic, and since aztadirachtin is able to "translocate" throughout the plant...then I submit this study is a valid study of the "uptake and fate of aztadirachtin" (irregardless of form of neem).

View Image

Fact: Around 10 days after application there is a peak in plant residue...and then a significant decrease such that 50 days after application--residue in roots was 7.5% of peak concentration, 22.1% in foliage and 22.3% in stem.

If you produce some science to support your belief that certain forms of neem (cake vs powder) have different uptake and fate characteristics that would be great! Until then, I say we go with "science" not "feelings". The simple conclusion is--50 days after a soil application of aztadirachtin there is a significant level of residue remaining in the plant (period).

Logic says--if something is in the plant (aztadirachtin residue) at the time of harvest, then flowers should also have detectable levels of aztadirachtin. Therefor, all the other properties of Neem (many we do not fully understand) could also reside in harvested flowers. Anecdotal evidence is nice--but not conclusive....and the "I thinks" are nothing but opinions, but a science experiment/study that has not been refuted is rather powerful in my book.

Remember--"The main limonoid that it contains is azadirachtin but it also contains azadiradione, fraxinellone, nimbin, salannin, salannol, vepinin, vilasinin, etc. There are three other active constituents in the oil - nimbin, nimbidin and nimbinene plus bitter principles, tannins, flavonoids and sesquiterpene derivatives."

What about the items in bold? What do we know how they effect they influence "taste"? Like I said, "we don't know".

Read my posts, I apologize if I sound short, I don't mean too be. I started these conversations with other people in other thread in the past and get real tired when dealing with people who aren't willing to open their mind to reality (not saying this is you).

First, nothing is good nor evil except for us. chemicals and organic substances are inert.

where I get angry is people argue reality when it sits there in their face

FLOWERS UPTAKE SHIT EVEN WHEN THEY ARE DEAD

how do you think people preserve flowers after they cut them?

why can they use hemp to leach radioactivity from soil?

why do people put water under Christmas trees? What do the trees do when you do?

they suck that shit right up, right? but you know how many hydro "geniuses" who read a whole lot will argue that transport is selective. Kinda like the dudes who argue for the use of chemicals like eagle20

THERE AINT NO MINERALS IN MY LEAVES

Truth is, most people don't understand transportation well enough to understand (and in some cases science itself) to know exactly what is transported and how it effects secondary metabolite production or for that matter what is left behind in the primary metabolites? This is why people oil their pot and even then its not a perfect way to filter out the undesirables.

ok im starting to feel better as rant thank you.

:: deep breath deep breath

That is why I gave instructions for which obvious conclusions can be made.

The concept behind living soil is that you have a base of healthy soil and you add small amounts of organic precursors to keep it balanced. The potential "extras" anything you add should be processed by microorganisms and then after passing through the soil food web, be presented to the plant (as I understand the theory).

second, from my posts, as I have said, no application I have used causes a differential in taste, BUT I don't use an over powering amount that should bias or known techniques where there is a reported bias.

I have used horticultural oils safe for harvest up to the day of and guess what, it effected the end results.

You know what though, it was still markedly better than other local product, so in the end I question how many people even understands the differentials in the first place.

try it for yourselves

Scientists go through the effort of experimentation to garnish results

Think it out thoroughly and try it on the side next to your regular production and gauge results

IN MY HUMBLE EXPERIENCE

organic precursors from fish emulsions to neem oil can effect end product BASED ON HOW YOU USE THEM. I have the ones I personally prefer although some I do not use for "moral" reasons.

yes, some of the "extras" stuff is there especially if you foliar and this does not necessarily make them bad either even when used like this, but in the end those type of applications are knee jerk reaction type not pre planned preventive type.

that said I garden from a less is more attack, thanks top those "rols guys" whom I am still very grateful too

I won't lie, I got "it" right away but it took a while for me to get "it" going in my room cause I come from an equally as restrictive paradigm.

success using counter-intuitive (as far as living soil goes) methods had me stuck, and every time I figured out the problem it was because I was tying to use square pegs in round holes (hydro methods in living soil environment)

but in context to the thread, as far as neem MEAL goes, I have used teas late in flower on select plants that had more time to them and there was no discernible difference.

I didn't have it tested but I have a very acute palate and very sensitive to toxic adulterants. I can smell and taste when weed has "sweet" in it for example. I was born with over 130 allergies, so there are many things I am sensitive too that other people simply can't appreciate from a biological standpoint.

SO as far as anecdotally I find neem cake extremely safe. It does inhibit nitrogen in soil. Neem is used as medicine in humans and does have some negative effects in massive doses. Both are described in detail on wiki. There are differences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neem_cake

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neem_oil

 

[Weird]

sorry if i come off cocky

i get so tired arguing against the prevalent programming we have all been exposed to, and sometimes forget I was programed the same.

Most people see it as them against us myself included until i remind myself its us against ourselves.

babylon and zion aren't destinations they are states of being

blah blah blah

see how chatting organic weeds get me and im no cheap date

 

[Former Guest]

I'm actually quite curious about how azadiractin ends up being located inside the plant as I've stumbled across some threads elsewhere that discussed the effects of neem on mites not being what is claimed. the threads state the GH Azamax markets their product to kill spider mites while other brands like Azasol do not and when called to ask why, the company stated that they haven't found many studies to claim that it does. people felt that GH was taking advantage of the cannabis industry by falsly marketing a product that is expensive and uneffective. Neem oil though has been shown to work and Luther has stated a while back that he has different concentrations of neem for different application reasons. So I'm curious if its the oil that is killing them and the azamax forms or not effective. the spider mites were said to not pierce far enough into the leaf tissue to get to the part that contains the azamax. what do you guys think about that theory? off topic but since your all here....

 

[EclipseFour20]

Weird,

What you said has no bearing on the topic of this thread. Like I said in the past, I respect your opinion. But I prefer to allow my opinions to be influenced with fact and science--not that I capitulate to all conclusions from our science community (I always question authority), but for the "foundation" of my opinions--my preference is to include facts and the opinions of experts--THEN form an opinion. Sometimes it can be easier to--first form your opinion, then seek science to support it--but that is not how I roll.

Instead of debating your growing philosophies...why not open your mind and discuss the topic of this thread.

With that in mind, IF (big if) there is an "influence"...is it positive or negative? In other words, "do the components of neem positively influence the taste of cannabis? I can think of several theories of why/how it could.

 

[EclipseFour20]

I'm actually quite curious about how azadiractin ends up being located inside the plant as I've stumbled across some threads elsewhere that discussed the effects of neem on mites not being what is claimed. the threads state the GH Azamax markets their product to kill spider mites while other brands like Azasol do not and when called to ask why, the company stated that they haven't found many studies to claim that it does. people felt that GH was taking advantage of the cannabis industry by falsly marketing a product that is expensive and uneffective. Neem oil though has been shown to work and Luther has stated a while back that he has different concentrations of neem for different application reasons. So I'm curious if its the oil that is killing them and the azamax forms or not effective. the spider mites were said to not pierce far enough into the leaf tissue to get to the part that contains the azamax. what do you guys think about that theory? off topic but since your all here....

Here is part of their conclusion and take note of the "raspberry leaf" comment--

Possible "counter-synergistic" effect? Raspberry leaf + neem = less effectiveness?

 

[Former Guest]

curiouser and curiouser so mite populations were only effected after heavy dosing of foliar sprays while the root applications were not effective. for other insects though it worked well. kinda what the thread said but I didn't really see application rates discussed as it was more a bitch and moan fest about marketing of bottles that don't work to cannabis growers but when I looked into it I found a chart that I shared on a thread that is now deleted and I can't find it again that compared many different brands of products and showed that the off brands of azadiractin showed it wasn't targeted towards mites at all. made me curious if there was some logic to what they were saying. I've always loved my Nuke Em for most everything and it smells like oranges, weed that is sprayed up until harvest for PM tasted just fine and each strain had it's own flavor intact. my personal experience with the first harvest powder mildew War of 2014. a tad spendy but I mix small amounts and the light/medium dose application is great.

 

[waveguide]

yeah,

i was thinking i missed something...

azadirachtin is effective against a spectrum of insect life because it acts on some nerve mechanism in their brain sensor thinky things. it's not a mechanism shared with mammals or bacteria or other kinds of insects or clouds and stuff, so no one else needs to worry about it.

it won't kill spiders.

it won't kill little mice.

it won't kill little chocolate bars you line up and dress up to look like popular singers.

it doesn't kill every thing that's tiny. it kills things with a certain nerve mechanism.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Lady,

Or...repeated doses is required. The interesting thing about this study is it studied the effect after a single application--so timing additional applications can be a function of "need" and "when".

Identifying "sweet spots" can be extremely beneficial. Example--since there is a spike of azadirachtin in the plant tissue about 10 days after root application...why not time neem oil applications to the root zone every 10 days or so...instead of daily/weekly? For containers, half-life of azadirachtin in soil is 27.5 days (residual)--kinda high for flowering plants, but within tolerance for vegetative plants. Knowing a product's "sweet spots" can be a handy bit of information I to have.

 

[rasputin]

actually, it does.. amazing when it does. but i haven't been able to pin down when that is.

hearing this, i've occasionally mixed, in a 4 oz. hand sprayer, a bit of water, a bit of ksil, then a bit of neem oil.. most of the time i do this it's a greasy mess, but twice, once i know on a cold day, the oil goes in and with a flick of the wrist the lot magically mixes.. don't even need to shake it twice.

i wish i knew what the secret to that was.

now i pour the oil in when i mix the soil. never thought the taste was affected.

Your use of the words "magically" and "secret" is telling. This process is neither magical or secret. I think you are confusing saponification with emulsification.

Your post actually supports my point because not only were you incapable of reproducing the result, you also stopped doing it altogether. I have to think that is because you noticed it didn't work.

The two times it did appear to work was likely due to the alkalinity of your solution, not the potassium silicate itself.

 

[Weird]

Weird,

What you said has no bearing on the topic of this thread. Like I said in the past, I respect your opinion. But I prefer to allow my opinions to be influenced with fact and science--not that I capitulate to all conclusions from our science community (I always question authority), but for the "foundation" of my opinions--my preference is to include facts and the opinions of experts--THEN form an opinion. Sometimes it can be easier to--first form your opinion, then seek science to support it--but that is not how I roll.

Instead of debating your growing philosophies...why not open your mind and discuss the topic of this thread.

With that in mind, IF (big if) there is an "influence"...is it positive or negative? In other words, "do the components of neem positively influence the taste of cannabis? I can think of several theories of why/how it could.

NO you simply are so uneducated in regards to natural biological systems so you don't understand the writing you are reading.

Not everything you present to a plants rhizoshpere is taken up directly, some things are, some aren't.

in this case I told you that I don't believe azadacdrine to have a transferable taste regardless of uptake.

The reason I keep on using azadactrine as an example is because it is the only reference you provided and is a very apples to oranges one at that, which is the crux of my examples, so you can see that.

obviously your not putting the dots together, but for arguments sake ill blame myself and explain again.

Just because something has a taste or a smell doesn't mean the plant will reflect it WHEN PRESENTED VIA ROOTZONE !!!!

This is important because you can make a neem meal tea and foliar with it, conversely you can use neem oil as a foliar.

The part where the most confusion lies is in root zone interactions.

When you put something with smell or taste in living organic soil, what is not readily available to the plant is processed by microbiology so it can be, it a basic rudimentary form.

This process changes the composition of what you represent to the plant, all based on soil microbiology.

The only way the science your posting helps in any way is to illustrate the period in which azadacrtin breaks down (not any of the extras in the meal) so I can't give you anything but anecdotal evidence.

Then again since you searched for the documentation on your own and know what is available. So you came here to ask for "anecdotal" information for which I have provided.

As far as extras, such as flavinoids, you tell me if they are taken up directly by plants. Seems you trust google more than people who have made their own self discoveries.

Stop investing so much in indirect scientific proofs and put more into investing into experiential reality.

Be far less loss of translation.