Broad mites: ID and Organic Antidotes that work!

[50YardLine]

Once again this has become a troll fest. Check out my album, and see who is growing healthy plants. Even with my battle, I harvested many quality packs that people have lined up for. All my packs have been tested and zero pesticides and average thc is 25%. My experience dates back more than 15 years of growing our beloved plant. Listen to me or don't, but I wish you all well.

Keep it green everybody.

 

[milkyjoe]

None of our personality quirks (I am arrogant and do troll for fun every once in a while) change the fact that heat treatments don't work when you have enough soil mass that it cannot reach temp. If someone has experience with that and would like to share specifics I would love to hear it

Edit...on my second acct if that is important. Didnt get banned, just got tired of being that character

 

[Mikell]

If anyone can share actual information (conjecture or personal theories not needed), that broad mites live in soil when a hospitable environment (living plant) is available, please post it.

Everyone should note the title of this thread. If you believe conventional pesticides are the only option, start your own thread or contribute to one of the many others. Dick measuring/swinging doesn't appear (I may be wrong) to be in the thread title.

Anyone looking to educate themselves on BM, check this out. Bloody game changer.

 

[Terpz]

It happens because they are in your house/space, and attack seedlings immediately. Have seen the same thing repeatedly. Until you get them out of your environment, they will still be there to attack seedlings, and they do it immediately. They are NOT spread through seeds. By the way, if you treat seedlings with aspirin, they will come right back from the effects of the tarsonemidae toxins. I would like to know, however, how you determined "broad mite damage as soon as the cotyledons opened".

I am one of the few, or many, still learning about the differences between tmv mottling, streaking/mosaic, (upturned leaf edges)bubbling and broad mite toxin damage. I grew cannabis in the pacnw for a good 5yrs and never experienced said traits/damage as mentioned above.. upon entering the industry, several years ago now, I have just about seen it all. Over the years, I've spent 100s hrs looking at cannabis leaves through a 200x scope (4hrs a day, once a week). Based off past experience and what I have worked on, in, with, and around ..I'm not too sure of anything anymore. In general, there seems a lack of knowledge in both tmv and broad mites overall. A simple google search of 'broad mites' shows the same 5 images in every article. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I've yet to see a broad mite in person. Seems their bite is worse than the bark.

 

[xmobotx]

Xmobotx - have you ever actually had these bugs? Or was that kind of speculation? Just because you are spraying organic preventive sprays, doesn't mean you have ever even battled broad mites/russets. The only reason I ask, is because I was the same way. I have always preached proper mineralization and organic preventives, however like I said, these bugs don't play by those rules.

i don;t have to worry about PM but i do have to prevent for thrips, moth/caterpillar, spider mites & BM of which i have experienced all

these controls have worked for me & i will happily agree that there are a lot of variables {not the least of which might even be grower interpretation} but more emphasis really on climate.

botanicals don;t necessarily work instantly or well at the rates we see people suggest. you do have to be careful but, my experience is that i have to use more than i typically see suggested. i also really rely on the saponins in the soaps keeping the solution on the leaves ~doc bronners really is the main thing i use & i will go up to an oz/gallon esp during grasshoppers. the timeline is important too ~since i started following suggestions to wait 2 full days between & do 3 at that interval if there's any pressure, i have not had another infestation {crosses fingers}

 

[50YardLine]

xmobotx - Good info there.

Anybody tried sulfur? Most studies also recommend sulfur. I have a sulfur burner, but haven't used it in 5+ years. Maybe I will give it a try in the greenhouse, see what it does.

 

[Avinash.miles]

LAST WARNING PEEPS, KEEP IT CIVIL
I just went thru and did a big cleanup on last 7 or so pages... so please let's move forward now. These broads have become a big problem for growers; it's important we provide good info for each other and the greater community to beat these bugs in various grow settings.

IF you want to continue the discussion on heat treatments and in what environments they are feasible please start up a new thread here in the infirmary section so that a CIVIL discussion can take place there.

Seems to me that in this thread the discussion really shouldn't be "Do heat treatments work against broads?" but rather "In what situations could heat treatments work against broad mites?"

So, IF heat treatments have worked for you, please describe the grow it worked for you in: indoor, what size room; GH, how big, how tall? media? soil, rockwool, coco; media container size. it's in the DETAILS... so IF it worked for you please describe HOW, which probably has alot to do with your environment.
just like PFR97 will work better in environments with 60% or more humidity... same with many biological solutions.

 

[RetroGrow]

If anyone can share actual information (conjecture or personal theories not needed), that broad mites live in soil when a hospitable environment (living plant) is available, please post it.

Everyone should note the title of this thread. If you believe conventional pesticides are the only option, start your own thread or contribute to one of the many others. Dick measuring/swinging doesn't appear (I may be wrong) to be in the thread title.

Anyone looking to educate themselves on BM, check this out. Bloody game changer.

Correct. Broad/cyclamen mites do NOT live in soil. To say that they live in soil shows a fundamental lack of understanding. The favorite food of broad/cyclamen mites is fruit trees. Mangoes and citrus are at the top of the list, so if you live in areas with lots of fruit trees, like Florida or California, they are there in great numbers. They are small enough to travel on wind currents, and are also vectored by fungus gnats and white flies. Once they get on your property or in your house, they can survive for long periods of time and will easily re-enter your grow space.
TMV is a virus, and has nothing to do with broad mites. Plants will grow out of TMV if they have it. It is not very destructive to Cannabis. If you are scoping for hours and not seeing broad/cyclamen mites/eggs, you probably don't have them. The thing to look for is eggs under the leaves. The eggs cannot hide, while the mites themselves are masters at hiding, and are averse to light. To find out if you have them, just cut off some affected leaves, and examine under a microscope. The eggs are plain to see, although some have problems distinguishing between trichomes and eggs. Trichomes are found all over the leaves/stems, eggs are only found in clusters under the leaves. If you have eggs, you have mites. If you don't have eggs, you don't have mites. Visually, plants with tarsinomidae have hooked leaves. That is a giveaway, although some strains, like GG4, can have hooked leaves without having the mites. For the most part, if you see pictures where the plants show hooked leaves along with other obvious damage, it is a good bet you have tarsinomidae. Tarsinomidae are extremely heat sensitive, which is why commercial greenhouses use heat to kill them. They die at relatively low temperatures when compared to other pests. They are actually easy to get rid of indoors simply by using heat. No poisons necessary at all. The medium doesn't really matter. If you are outdoors, it is a totally different story. OGBiowar/Cap's Bennies work well, as well as some of the newer biologicals, preferably as a preventative, before you have an infestation.
A simple Google search will show you pictures of mites and eggs. Eggs of BMs are dimpled, eggs of cyclamens are smooth. Kontos can be used as a soil drench and is effective at limiting their numbers, although it will not necessarily wipe them out completely. Infestation is less likely when using Kontos as a preventative.

 

[blueberrydrumz]

i just wanted to say that the plants survived the hot water dunks and now after a good 3 weeks are back on track and growth has returned to normality..
after the hot water dunks i started giving them something similar to OGBiowar and things are looking hopefull... like i mentioned before i have root aphids though and not BM´s...
but just saying... HWD´s do work.. at least they did for me

 

[Mikell]

Polyphagotarsonemus latus

Poly - Many
Phago - Eating
Tarsonemid - Thread footed (a reference to the rear forth set of legs on the female)
Latus - Broad

I find it easier to remember Latin names by breaking them down to their base definitions.

Tarsonemid Mites - UCDavis

Because these mites feed on a large variety of plant species, keep production areas free of weeds that can serve as hosts for mite populations. Carefully inspect plants being brought in to start a new crop to ensure that they are free of pests, and disinfest the plants if needed. Disinfestation can be accomplished by immersing propagation stock in 110.3°F water for 30 minutes, or treatment at 100% relative humidity and 110.3°F for 1 hour. If hot spots of these mites are found in production areas, consider roguing affected plants and treating the surrounding plants.

Few mention (here and other cannabis forums) that RH needs to be raised during heat treatment. I suspect this may be the reason behind some of the reported failures with the treatment, despite repeated trials, especially as many of you live in California or dry mountainous areas on the West coast.

The cyclamen mite and the broad mite and their control - 1933 (An older but a gooder)

This is a txt file of the same article, badly adapted.

And contains my favourite quote for this post:

However, studies for 2 years have shown that both
mites (cyclamen, broad) continue to breed on the plants the year round, and no evidence
has been found that they hibernate in the soil or in benches during
part of the year. It appears that access to living plant tissue as food
is necessary for existence of the mites and that they die when con-
fined to soil or to dry or moist decaying plant tissue.

Brackets mine.

Both mites spread readily from plant to plant when adjacent plants
are in contact, but the natural spread of the cyclamen mite is reduced
by separating the plants so that the foliage does not touch, as noted
by Garman in 1917. In the present studies several lots of unin-
fested plants were grown for 4 to 6 months, separated from infested
plants by spaces of 12 to 18 inches, with no evidence of crossing over
by the cyclamen mite. However, the 18-inch space did not prevent
spread by the broad mite.

Some of you may note this in the conclusion,

Experiments have shown that both mites are killed when the
infested plants are immersed for 15 minutes in water heated to 110° F.,
except that for those in the crowns below the soil surface a 25-minute
treatment is required. Vapor-heat treatment for 30 minutes at 110°
kills the mites as effectively as the 15-minute dip.

re: the mention of mites in the soil. The reference is to cyclamen.

The cyclamen mite enters through breaks in the surface or epidermal
layer on injured leaves of Delphinium and breeds within the leaf tissue.
It also penetrates the crown of Delphinium to the base of the leaves
and is often found one half inch or more below the soil surface.

There is some evidence female cyclamen may diapause (hibernate) just below the surface of the soil in absence of a food source but there are dissenting opinions from other researchers.


Of interest to 50yard (despite our shitslinging) and anyone looking to sulphur powder or liquids as a solution, is this (direct link to a pdf). Shows good but not total control with a liquid sulphur mixture. Repeated applications may give better result.

Biologic control does not look promising, with few (even swirskii) giving anything but working control (re: no full eradication), even with artificial diet supplementation (increases egg laying rates of predatory females). Some may take issue with this. There are very few reports if any, where a biological control has wiped out an infestation. But then that is part and parcel of how biological control works, despite many proponents (almost exclusively cannabis growers with a smattering of home gardeners) proclaiming other wise.

 

[50YardLine]

Is there an echo in here? Seems like all the info I already posted, from that exact link. I know you don't like to read what others have posted, but it looks like you overlooked something when talking about biological controls. It's called biological controls for a reason. If it eradicated the mites, it would be called a cure, not biological control.

I guess this thread has run it's course, when people are just re-posting the exact same information from the last 5 pages.....uggg.

There are very few reports if any, where a biological control has wiped out an infestation.

 

[milkyjoe]

Unless that biological control is nutrition including inducing an isr response. You gotta knock em back with something just to reduce damage to the point where the plant can take nutrition...and that may include a sars reponse. Then you come with nutrtion and let the plant build its immune system. You gotta get enzyme levels built back up quickly

 

[Avinash.miles]

so broads do live in the soil, so rooms (GH's) with large masses of soil and cover crops may not be ideal for heat treatments
sounds like what milkyjoe said a couple pages back....

seems like IPM is made up of various different controls, none of which are a "one and done" cure, that's why ipm is a regime of plant care that goes beyond simply treating plants with "cures".

 

[50YardLine]

so broads do live in the soil, so rooms (GH's) with large masses of soil and cover crops may not be ideal for heat treatments
sounds like what milkyjoe said a couple pages back....

seems like IPM is made up of various different controls, none of which are a "one and done" cure, that's why ipm is a regime of plant care that goes beyond simply treating plants with "cures".

I have been saying this since my first post. With field tests, sucks nobody listens.

 

[50YardLine]

Unless that biological control is nutrition including inducing an isr response. You gotta knock em back with something just to reduce damage to the point where the plant can take nutrition...and that may include a sars reponse. Then you come with nutrtion and let the plant build its immune system. You gotta get enzyme levels built back up quickly

I think this is why my plants contracted the mites in the first place. I stated already that my sap ph was 6.3 and a brix of 18 when I first got hit. That means my nutrition was on point, but why the outbreak?

My guess here is my plants were only at stage three in the plant health pyramid. They were producing carbohydrates, proteins and high levels of lipids. I know this because the sheen on the plants, indicating high lipid content. However, where I think the bugs got a window to attack is because my plants were still young, and maybe not producing PSM's yet?

It's a mystery to me. I have preached proper nutrition and organic preventives for as long as I have grown. Didn't work against the Russets/BM's.

 

[Mikell]

Is there an echo in here? Seems like all the info I already posted, from that exact link. I know you don't like to read what others have posted, but it looks like you overlooked something when talking about biological controls. It's called biological controls for a reason. If it eradicated the mites, it would be called a cure, not biological control.

I guess this thread has run it's course, when people are just re-posting the exact same information from the last 5 pages.....uggg.

I'm confused as to why you chose to focus on that one minor point? I'll deal with that below. Also a bit of confusion as to why you haven't acknowledged many claims you have made here are clearly incorrect when laid beside the facts (obviously IMO). One would think if you wanted to argue, that would be your area of focus.

I reposted the UCDavis link to highlight the use of 100% RH during heat treatment. This was mentioned in my last post quite clearly.

UCDavis was linked by another poster here. You linked to a few university websites and YouTube. Perhaps I'm mistaken, rebrowsing is a pain on this phone.

Why highlight RH? No one mentions it, you included. How can one proclaim any method a failure when they ignore half the procedure?

Control is a term used in IPM literature that encompasses any method to reduce pest populations. My particular comment was to address a misconception commonly held that beneficials will provide complete control. I wasn't responding to anything here, it was just in my mind at the time.

50, this is a decent thread despite the pages of bickering. I'm trying to treat you civilly, perhaps you can extend the same courtesy. Clearly you've benefited (hard not to note your retrospective editing or attitude change), as I have from rereading much BM literature over the past few weeks and having opinions questioned.

Avi, bit confused how you drew that conclusion from my post? Or were you referring to something else?

 

[milkyjoe]

I think this is why my plants contracted the mites in the first place. I stated already that my sap ph was 6.3 and a brix of 18 when I first got hit. That means my nutrition was on point, but why the outbreak?

My guess here is my plants were only at stage three in the plant health pyramid. They were producing carbohydrates, proteins and high levels of lipids. I know this because the sheen on the plants, indicating high lipid content. However, where I think the bugs got a window to attack is because my plants were still young, and maybe not producing PSM's yet?

It's a mystery to me. I have preached proper nutrition and organic preventives for as long as I have grown. Didn't work against the Russets/BM's.

Both of those numbers can mislead. Sap pH essentially works like tcec/pH. It tells you that there is a certain amount of base cation but does not diferentiate between them. You could have good pH but a bad k:ca ratio.

Brix...imo too high is as bad as too low. You want the plant to be turning those solids into plant...long carbon chains. If it is not converting then those solids in the sap...simple ions...become insect food

Visit nova crop controls site...amazing research those guys are doing

 

[50YardLine]

I agree Milky, however 18 brix isn't too high. Also, my soil K:ca ratio is on point. Maybe a soil paste test or sap analysis would have shown different ratio's than my soil tests. However my soil tests are some of the best numbers I have ever seen. I pay for consulting through AEA, and they were even super impressed with my soil. (Gary)

I will visit Nova Crop again, see if it helps explain anything.

 

[50YardLine]

I reposted the UCDavis link to highlight the use of 100% RH during heat treatment. This was mentioned in my last post quite clearly.


50, this is a decent thread despite the pages of bickering. I'm trying to treat you civilly, perhaps you can extend the same courtesy. Clearly you've benefited (hard not to note your retrospective editing or attitude change), as I have from rereading much BM literature over the past few weeks and having opinions questioned.

I did not catch where you added heat treatments should have 100% humidity. Sorry, my fault. That answers why heat treatments didn't work for me. (plus soil, cover crops, ext) Where I live, I am lucky if with misters I can raise my RH to 50% during the season.

I edit almost every post, because I leave out words, spell things wrong, ext. I think a MOD cleaned up my dirty mouth. For the record.


Edit: After thinking about it......100% humidity will make all the difference. I touched on this a little, but now the puzzle pieces are fitting into place.

The air in the room is much different than the temps on the leaves where the mites live. 122 degrees F in the room will not raise the temps on the leaves anywhere near 115. I use a lazer temp gun, that is several thousand dollars and is very accurate. The leaf temps just don't reach those temps, period. Think of why air at 100F and 15% humidity seems much cooler than 100F at 100% humidity. That is because the body will release water, that cools off your body when the RH is low. When the RH is high, that water doesn't dry off and cool you. Think of an evaporator cooler. Plants do the same thing when they transpire water, it keeps them cool, and their leaf surfaces. Which means, the leaf surface is cooler than the hot air around them, period.

I raised the temps in my greenhouse to 145, and the temp on the tops of the leaves was 115, and the bottom of the leaves was 105. My soil temps were much, much lower, where mites also can survive. How do you account for soil temps? You don't. Just another reason heat treatments don't work in all situations.

100% humidity will eliminate any temperature fluctuation between the ambient air and the surface of the leaf. This sounds critically important.

 

[milkyjoe]

Invest in sap ca and k meters...you will be shocked how easy k is takn and how hard it is to get ca into the sap. Microbes are the answer...work weekly on driving divetse populations up. If you ain't a tainio fan go to microbemans site...I am totally down with what he is advocating...plus I balance up front. But microbes are the key that makes it work imo

Edit....btw if you get P down you end up with more room on cec sites for Ca...75% is my target