Breeding for beginners

[kokua]

I hate reading unrelated posts when I wanna learn. Pickin out truth from off topic stuff is just too much work.

You can say that again...

Anyone can pollinate plants and create seed...breeders have devoloped a methodology and a plan of attack. Breeders have LOTS of superior genetic material to work with and LOTS of space to work in. In addition breeders have a deep understanding of genetic material and biological and physiological processes that the plants go through from seed to fruition that sets them apart from pollinators. Don't think that I am saying that in a derogatory way...it is good to make seed It's just not breeding...

A more telling title would be: Pollinating and creating seed for beginners because that is what we are talking about here...creating seed.

All/most of the information found in this thread (other than the initial post by GPB and Azra3l's posts) is speculation and conjecture. I see very little first hand experience with actuall breeding of plants...

Beginners teaching beginners...just the type of environment that is conducive to higher learning lol

Teachers have to teach the right way...speculation and conjecture have absolutely no place in the classroom...

Students should not teach...

Its good to talk about things and share information...as long as the info given is from experienced proven sources.

I am not trying to hate or flame anyone, just trying to offer a dose of reality .

This is a good topic to discuss and I am happy this thread is here, so that we can have this discussion. We just need to be carefull how we word things... Polinating and making seeds is a vital part of the breeding process. However breeding isn't necessary to the seed making process.

This thread gives me a greater appreciation for those who actually DO breed plants. Big ups to all the breeders out there

 

[glasspackedbowl]

82posts 9,209views this thread has about a 1000 views per post. Seams like all of our members have read it.

 

[kokua]

not helping...lol. Do me a favor...reread my post again, but without the chip on your shoulder It wasn't hatefull, and should not have been taken that way.

Helping others is only helping if you are helping others do things the right way. Helping others do things the way you think things work is hardly productive.

I sayed that I thought it was good that folks shared information and thoughts on the subject...just make sure you word your posts to reflect the fact that you think you know this to be true, but don't actually have the experience/knowledge to be 100% sure.

Places like IC are great sources of information. We just have to make sure that the information that is given as truth is infact truth and not half truths or speculation. Alot of the information you have provided as truth is infact speculation...bottom line. That is not bad... Again, sharing ideas is a good thing. Just preface your post by saying so.

btw...I have made lots of crosses. Lots of yummy crosses infact. I do know enough about the process that I don't call my crosses strains, and I don't call myself a breeder because I successfully unselectively mated two plants(something that a bee can do).

 

[OG bub]

You can say that again...

Anyone can pollinate plants and create seed...breeders have devoloped a methodology and a plan of attack. Breeders have LOTS of superior genetic material to work with and LOTS of space to work in. In addition breeders have a deep understanding of genetic material and biological and physiological processes that the plants go through from seed to fruition that sets them apart from pollinators. Don't think that I am saying that in a derogatory way...it is good to make seed It's just not breeding...

A more telling title would be: Pollinating and creating seed for beginners because that is what we are talking about here...creating seed.

All/most of the information found in this thread (other than the initial post by GPB and Azra3l's posts) is speculation and conjecture. I see very little first hand experience with actuall breeding of plants...

Beginners teaching beginners...just the type of environment that is conducive to higher learning lol

Teachers have to teach the right way...speculation and conjecture have absolutely no place in the classroom...

Students should not teach...

Its good to talk about things and share information...as long as the info given is from experienced proven sources.

I am not trying to hate or flame anyone, just trying to offer a dose of reality .

This is a good topic to discuss and I am happy this thread is here, so that we can have this discussion. We just need to be carefull how we word things... Polinating and making seeds is a vital part of the breeding process. However breeding isn't necessary to the seed making process.

This thread gives me a greater appreciation for those who actually DO breed plants. Big ups to all the breeders out there

I agree!


Im seeing a good few incorrect informations from the little Ive read here.


Peace, bub.

 

[OG bub]

GPB, my friend.. kokua does know what hes talking about.
no reason for hostility bro.

Peace, bub.

 

[glasspackedbowl]

I think he just doesnt agree with the experience me and the others have. I have been breeding for a few years its been a long time since I have been a "pollen chucker" or what ever title u have to give to those who apparently arent as good as you. Remember this thread is from another site I brought it over. Made it a few years ago and I would hope I learned a few things with it after a while..... Heres my Power Skunk:

Made this cross in 2004.



4+ Ounces from 60 days.​

 

[kokua]

I don't claim to be a breeder...so I don't teach others how to breed. I do however know enough about the subject to know that this isn't breeding lol Sorry your feelings were hurt GPB...my posts weren't directed at you personally, they were directed at this thread. We will have to agree to disagree I suppose.

GPB...I have never claimed to be an authority on any subject especially breeding. Just trying to keep the info clean. Again, sorry if that offends you If you feel your info is correct....do me a favor, holler at some real breeders on this site and ask their opinion...bub already gave his.

I could spend the next few hours of my life explaining to you why you don't know half as much as you think you do...however, I am going to take some advice from my good old pal mrwags...I am not going to argue with you my friend...you will just bring me down to your level.

 

[glasspackedbowl]

anyways.... Back to my thread anyone with any questions feel free to ask my Door is and always will be open. When you get to a point where your really good you dont step into thread and put the poster down. You make a better one. Glad kokua or i mean sunnyside has the time to claim to be a breeder and say some things in this thread arent fact but then wont say what. Help or get out of the way.

This thread was brought upon by me not wanting to pay $150 for 10 seeds. I wont stand for it, I will help anyone who can help me drive them out of great genetics at high prices. $15 a seeds is crazy.

 

[glasspackedbowl]

Great thread GPB, iv been reading and rereading this thread for a while, its helped alot to determine what im looking for in a male and female for my ventures.

Great facts to keep on hand.

im sure ill be back around to ask questions later in the season as things progress in my garden...

Dime

See you soon.... Happy greenness!

 

[glasspackedbowl]

does anyone on here grow journal every grow?? I think its great how he can underestimate my skills.

 

[sackoweed]

Ok just reading thru why does there have to be drama>? And why would a top notch breeder even be in this thread if its shit he already knows.. I think the title says BEGINNERS wheather its pollen chucking, closet hacking, or flat out breeding using 1000's of plants.. Man someone has always got to belittle someone no matter what.. People cant just see others doing something positive gotta come and be negative even though saying not to flame or start anything. Well guess what it starts things.. If people that are better than others see incorrect info add in and correct from yer experience. not say thats wrong and then proceed to not contribute.. I cant say i contribute cos im still learning this thing we do.. Thats why im here.. And if its incorrect i think the top flite peeps need to start a correct and even better thread..And then they will be themselves happy for whatever reason their not. If that makes sense.. Just get along man help people out.. If people wanna dog other go to the tokers den i get shits and giggles from there plenty.. Its ez just click on tokers den.. I also am not going to get into a pissing contest.. Cos ill win mine is bigger and i pee green.. So lets not do that.. Be positive and contribute if not take a pee and yellow out.. lol... Just my 2 copper coins.. peace..

sack

 

[raygun]

Back on to breeding for beginners

Back on to breeding for beginners

Hey Bub and Kokua,
Why would you say you see errors already in this thread and then not point them out so that the BEGINNERS can decide for themselves what they want to take for face value. I do believe that students can teach but it must be remembered that they are still learning themselves and they should not be spouting off like an expert, just life experiences that they have had or worked well for them. There will always be one or two in the class that "get it" and can re-interperet that to the rest of the class to help the other students learn. Students teaching students its 1/2 of what college is.

Its quality and consistancy that definds a true breeder of anything. In the world of reptiles, farm animals, yeast, pets ect. you would define a "breeder" as someone who consistantly brings a product to the table (good or bad its consistant) Its their talent that will make the product better Other than that we are all just playing god and porn producer when we make seeds or mate two animals.

To be 100% honest i would define a "true breeder" as some one who has a parent stock that they can use to pollinate/impregnate and see how the traits carry over. They keep tabs of the charicteristics of the male and female and their offspring. If a particular male/female tends to pass on a particular good dominat trait that is one they would keep. I doubt that many MJ "breeders" keep tabs on what happends with sucessive generations of MJ offspring from the male side as males are hardly kept after use in breeding purposes in MJ. It is one of the only areas where i see this constantly. The old " its the same mother clone with different fathers...." Who wants to keep a clone of some male unless you just make seeds and want to continue that same seed line. But atlast this is not the case and we just have to make due with what we have available to work with.

This is supposed to be breeding for beginners so I would hope that some of the self-proclaimed or publicly proclaimed "breeders" would chime in and redirect us back on the correct path to making our own seed line for the preservation of our own, now "clone only", mothers that we might have found out of a pack of 10 seeds that we paid $100+ for. Especialy from the one offs that will not be around any longer and/or the "breeder" is not making that cross ever again. IE. BOG's sour bubble, Bub's Deep Chunk ect...
If you wanted to select for "Q" trait you need to look for xyz in the parents ect.

Now without going in to any sort of scientific explanation ect. Just k.i.s.s. How would you two correct some of the errors that you found in this thread? It is just an opinion and anyone who is reading this should also do some research on their own about other breeders/pollin chuckers/specialty seed makers ect. proceedures for making their seeds and then look at the quality of product produced via grow threads and then the price they sell those for.
Not saying that they did not make a superior product but perhaps nothing that i could not replicate with some good luck and the right parents. How many 2 strain hybrids are being sold on seedbay right now?
Show us what you know and help a broda out.

My pollin chuckin for Apollo Mist F2's Should give me offspring similar to the p1 parents should they not? So i should get Plants leaning towards Kali mist and leaning towards Apollo 11 even more so than the f1 parents? I used 2 fem and 1 male


I am also working on a Sour Bubble back cross seed from that i can keep for my personal collection and am on my 2'nd bx from my initial outcross. so now i am 75% original Sour Bubble mom with the seeds that i have? I used 1 fem (my clone mom) and 1 male(an early SD) for inital outcross then 3 very similar males out of 12 plants grown from those seeds for my bx1.


Thank you for helping!
~raygun~

 

[kokua]

since you asked...

since you asked...

3RD rail's posts were right on...nice post As were Raygun's

...

What is the point in that "backcross"? If you have a cherry pheno AK for instance, wouldnt just inbreed the cherry pheno. Why do a backcross, since its only a pheno. I though that phenos are just expressions and backcrosses wouldnt stabilize this expression, only inbreeding.

Isnt backcrossing a way to introduce new genes into a strain and keep it healthy, or to say for instance have a clone only in seed form? Otherwise, whats the point?

To backcross is to cross ( a hybrid) with one of its parents or with an individual genetically identical to one of its parents.

To inbreed is to breed by the continued mating of closely related individuals, to breed within a line...mating brothers and sisters.

like we have been talking about if you have a cherry pheno ak47 and u back cross it to one u have that lets say has a better profile then the f2(meaning it has the cherry flavor but a better yeild or potency) would allow u to take that f2 that got worked down to get the flavor and make it yeild more or be more potent.

Let that the Very berry suprises(BB) the purple plant has the color but what about yeild and potency. Its hard to keep one trait unaffected while trying to control another trait.

right...If you have an ak47 pheno, you have a polyhybrid...this throws off all calculations. If you crossed siblings from your original pack of ak47 you wouldn't end up with an f2, because it was never an F1. This is where the complications come in...the punnet squares don't account for polyhybrids. You are going to get a whole host of genotypes out of that mix...hardly something a beginner could tackle, especially when you talk about running as small of numbers as have been discussed in this thread.

Originally Posted by bajanbudder
My first question is these strains should show hybrid vigor. But what exactly is hybrid vigor?

I know its been explaned before but i ent no "brain" so you got to talk in laymans terms to me. To my understanding hibrid vigor is the expresion of all the domanant genes of the parents in the first (F1) offspring.

And if this is so all the F1 plants would appair to be Clones but in reality have different gene "codes" (That word again)

Answer that was given:

Yes they will look very simular as clones would(enviromentl strees may make these vary slightly but not much) But the next batch will only show vigor if that plants genes are for a vigorus plant. Hope that makes sence.

As someone already stated...No that doesn't make sense...F1's rarely resemble clones. The F1 generation will have a mass of variation. But the variations will be limited to the traits that are selected by the breeder and their recessive counterparts. So...before you start to work a breed, you need to know what you are working with...heterozygous or homozygous, this can only be acomplished by doing testcrosses. This is where breeding becomes a bit more difficult... This step cannot be overlooked by the beginner breeder. This is a vital step in successful breeding that if overlooked can waste years of work.

But the next batch will only show vigor if that plants genes are for a vigorus plant.

I don't even know where to start on this one...This statement is wrong on so many levels. A basic understanding of breeding would help.


Heterosis or hybrid vigor was explained perfectly by AZRA3L..and has nothing to do with dominate and recessive genes fighting to show..lol


Someone was told to

pick the plant thats dominate in the closet way to what your lookin for. IE faster growing faster flowering fatter buds more buds style of plant structure. The amount of indica vs sativa you want. I tent to believe that plants with wider leafs will be more indica dominate in plant traits.

You are talking about phenotype expression...while that is important, phenotypes have very little to do with making solid crosses. You need to be worried about the genotypes. You could spin your wheels for years trying to pin down traits that aren't there. For example. What if the trait you want to lock down is the bud size. Say you have two plants you want to cross: a big budded plant crossed with a potent plant, and you are looking to lock down the bud size trait in the progency. Lets say the bud size trait for plant number 1 is heterozygous and the bud size is homogygous recessive in plant number 2, the potent cultivar. So you have Bb for plant number 1 and bb for plant number 2. You cross these two together and you get mostly Big bud phenotypes in your garden..However, the tricky part about this is that you could actually have 0 plants that are homogyzous for that trait. You will get mostly big budded plants from the f1, if infact you are dealing with pure lines.

Say you have only 6 plants you have to select from, potentially You could have Bb, Bb, Bb, Bb, bb, Bb genotypes. 5 of the 6 show Big bud phenotypes but none are homogyzous dominant for big bud, so none will breed true for that trait. That is why true breeders have lots of space and lots of plants...the likelyhood of finding true homogygous dominant plants in such a limited population pool is difficult at best. Get it... This is again where test crosses come into play.

Lets look at another example. Say you have Plant A the big budded plant and Plant B that is the potent budded plant. This time lets say that Plant A is homozygous recessive for the big bud trait, so it would look like bb. It will still show big buds, because their isn't something else in there dominating the cross. OK...say you cross this big budded bb to the potent small budded plant, but this time the small budded plant is homozygous dominant for the small bud trait. So now your progency will be small budded, now to the point of no return.

Now that you've managed to 'lock in' your small bud trait, what if the same thing managed to happen with the potency, but in reverse. The big bud was not potent but was PP and with your luck your potent plant was homozygous recessive pp. Now you've managed to create a perfectly awfull cross out of two perfectly wonderful phenotypes.

4. Well vigor will show in how fast the plant grows taller. How far apart the nodes are. The ones that show sex first. I believe these will get you the vigor you want.

Again, wrong on so many levels. Vigor has absolutely nothing to do with whether a plant grows taller or node spacing or showing sex first. Vigor has to do with dominant and recessive alleles. What you listed are all examples of phenotypic expression and can be manipulated by manipulating the environment that the plant grows in.

I think that the first female is more vigorus. The nodes are tight buds are larger and lower buds are larger. Theres lot of excess leaf. Leading me to believe it put out 110%.

Could it possibly be that that plant is homozygous recessive for all those traits? Likely, no...possible yes. If so, the progency won't look anything like the parent, making it a poor plant to breed. But we wouldn't know that because we haven't performed a test cross.

The males are in that pic together right? Well I see the one on the right being more indica the male cola tips come together really tight and fast. While the other male seam to be putting off more leaf and growing more spear like male colas. The last thing is how many pollen sacks for the more the better the yeild from him will be meaning he will produce more then the other guy plant.

I see where you are going with this and I disagree with your theory of picking a dominant male, and while your theory is flawed I still understand where you were going. Personally, I don't want the male to dominate the cross. Usually it is the females traits that we are wanting to recreate. If we add a dominant male to the mix he might dominate the cross and none of the traits we liked in the mom would show in the offspring. It is my opinon (speculation here) that you should be looking for a homozygous recessive male in all traits. That way when you cross it to a top notch female you get alot of the top notch traits in your cross. A homozygous recessive male does not in any way mean that the male is weak or grows slow or whatever, it just means that we have performed test crosses on it to determine that it is infact aa,bb,cc,dd,ee, etc...ressesive on all traits.


Someone asked if there was anything that could make their plants produce seed faster...The real answer is NO. The answer given in this thread was

Yes, any nutes that are suposed to help the plant flower faster. I like my salt leach its a mix on enzimes and what not. It always makes the plants jump forward. Its also recomends using it near the end to speed the finish of plant seeds should finish faster also.

If GPB knew about plant phisiology and the way plants actually grow then he would know that this answer isn't true. There are no magic nutrients out there that speed up flowering times...there are no secret enzymes out there that make plants finish. The real answer is that plants can and will only finish as fast as their genetic codes tell them to. We as caretakers of the plants can only provide a good environment for this to happen. Anyone who adds ferts/enzymes/addatives hoping to force a plant to do something it wasn't going to do anyway is ignorant of what is really going on and should not be breeding cannabis, especially for resale...

GPB...I wasn't personally attacking you or your thread...please understand that. ...all i said was that this thread was full of conjecture/speculation, which is still 100% true. I never said your opinion wasn't right, infact I never said that anyones opinion wasn't right...I clearly said in my original post that I love that everyone shares info/opinions...just make sure you preface your post by saying that it is an opinion, not a known fact about breeding.

Since you want to know, my biggest problem with your posts in this thread is the speculation coupled with the fact that you are claiming to be a 'teacher' and a 'breeder'. You are infact teaching others...but you are teaching others speculations and opinions. Nothing that you have posted is known as fact, other than your initial post.
A related yet separate issue is that you aren't using proper teminology...in fact you actually told someone that you didn't understand something that they had said and you told them that if they wanted to use proper terminology that they should start their own thread...that is an ignorant position to hold.

You talk about hybrids and crosses like everything is homogygous...when in real life they rarely are. You have been talking about crossing different hybrids that have already been worked and are likely already polyhybrids/f1's/f2's or whatever...without discussions on how that makes life soo much more complicated for the secondary breeder. Mendell and the punnett squares and the ratios that you are referencing work on pure lines and their progency...and have little to do with what you guys are discussing...crossing crosses.

If I didn't know any better I would take your posts as definitive information...thats the way you have presented it. The title makes the readers think that this is an introductory course to breeding if you will. When infact it is an introductory course in crossing crosses, nothing more.

I am not saying any of this in a hatefull or derogatory way...trust me, if you knew me you would know this is true. If we could sit and discuss this in person I could explain my frame of mind much better. (computers aren't the best communication devices)

I am sorry if you think I ruined your thread...I saw no preface saying that the info contained was heresay, so I had to post it.

Take care..

 

[Johnny Chimpo]

The old seedmaker vs. breeder debate

There is definitely a difference IMO.

I don't know why people get offended if they are a "seedmaker" and not a "breeder" ...maybe its when they think "seedmaker" and "pollen chucker" are synonymous and thats why they get offended.

I think Kokua and O.G. Bub had good intentions when they pointed out they noticed misinformation in the thread. The thread is a sticky and is titled breeding for beginners. I as many others probably did...came into the thread hoping to learn something thats a fact...most of the information was presented as such. The last thing I want is to waste my time...months...maybe years...because of misinformation.

The first post was excellent.

What this thread needs are a few "breeders" or people with a wide understanding of the subject to help guide new "seedmakers" in the right direction.

just my

JC

 

[Johnny Chimpo]

~~~~~~EDIT~~~~~~~

I had relevant information posted here but do not feel this thread is the right place for it...One of my posts was a glossary of terms posted from OG bubs forum and was asked to edit it because it was somewhat long ("thats not why I started this thread")...so apparently posts with relevant information if they are somewhat long are not welcome. The more I read this thread it appears only speculation (except from the first post) from the thread starter is welcome here. I think you would be better off getting your information from Sproutco...

JC

 

[glasspackedbowl]

dude

I didnt ask you to re-answer all answered post. I asked you to point out bad info not point out my opinion from what you believe to be fact.

 

[glasspackedbowl]

now that we wasted another thread page move on or stay and help with NO attitude. As I have never took a breeding class hahah I guess I will never been a breeder. Glad to see that the ability to grow many parents at once makes you a breeder and 10 seeds makes us chuckers.... Which is all but those who make seeds when its not really the people doing the crosses.


Remember this thread was made a sticky because it was helping. Because it helps explain this. I hate phony BS with proper terms and all that. Wait thats not a hair its a pistol. Hhahhaha

 

[OG bub]

Hey Bub and Kokua,
Why would you say you see errors already in this thread and then not point them out so that the BEGINNERS can decide for themselves what they want to take for face value. ~raygun~

Why? you ask.

simple as this:
as a beginner, of anything studied in depth, you can get something told to you, or you can LEARN something thru research...

If I wanted to learn how to play tennis:
so I play with someone who is better than me, and they teach me what they know.
a pro, from the sidelines, says, "yer doing something wrong"..

Now, If I had a passion for LEARNING how to play tennis, what would I do:

A- scream insults and start a 'Pro vrs Amature debate?!

B- take the LITTLE he said, and start researching hwat he could have possibly been talking about, and hopefully learn?!

see, when you learn something from yer own curiosity inspired research, it sticks more than something simply told to you. its easy to forget somone elses work, hard to forget yer own!

? And why would a top notch breeder even be in this thread if its shit he already knows..

Gee sack man, lets see......

mabey to help folks that dont know it?! please forgive me.

In my entire 2 days of history on the net, Ive never seen someone passionate about learning a specific topic, boo out some one whos apt to teach it...

I think the title says BEGINNERS wheather its pollen chucking, closet hacking, or flat out breeding using 1000's of plants.. Man someone has always got to belittle someone no matter what.. People cant just see others doing something positive gotta come and be negative even though saying not to flame or start anything. Well guess what it starts things.. If people that are better than others see incorrect info add in and correct from yer experience. not say thats wrong and then proceed to not contribute.. I cant say i contribute cos im still learning this thing we do.. Thats why im here.. And if its incorrect i think the top flite peeps need to start a correct and even better thread..And then they will be themselves happy for whatever reason their not. If that makes sense.. Just get along man help people out.. If people wanna dog other go to the tokers den i get shits and giggles from there plenty.. Its ez just click on tokers den.. I also am not going to get into a pissing contest.. Cos ill win mine is bigger and i pee green.. So lets not do that.. Be positive and contribute if not take a pee and yellow out.. lol... Just my 2 copper coins.. peace..

sack

to me, it sounds like yer a bit angry er somethin, mabey cause you spent alotta time in this thread, getting awnsers, then somone said, look for other awnsers.... yeah it does suck to do a lil work for yer self............

but it will pay off!





SHer, I can take an entire day and go thru every post on this thread, quote and correct those that need correction... JUST to make the 'bitter' folks happy... but Id rather the PASSIONATE folks about learning, do it for themselves... the awnsers, correct ones, all are here on IC!


GPB, Im shure you know, Im not at all saying all or much of yer writings are incorrect, just a few really. and I know, you know, I mean no offence!

Im merely hinting at: get more info.

sorry some folks had to take it SO damn deep!..lol..

peace, bub.

 

[OG bub]

now that we wasted another thread page move on or stay and help with NO attitude. As I have never took a breeding class hahah I guess I will never been a breeder. Glad to see that the ability to grow many parents at once makes you a breeder and 10 seeds makes us chuckers.... Which is all but those who make seeds when its not really the people doing the crosses.

dont turn this into a plant count argument, no one else is! no one said it takes X amount of plants to breed..
if you feel that because you have a low plant count, and have never taken a breeding class, that you cant be a breeder, that is youre decision...

Remember this thread was made a sticky because it was helping. Because it helps explain this. I hate phony BS with proper terms and all that. Wait thats not a hair its a pistol. Hhahhaha

You hate "phoney BS with proper terms n all that"?!
what are you doing discussing breeding then bro? you cant contribute a correctly dialoged discussion without proper terminology...








GPB, its obvious you took a couple corrections to heart. just relax bro, no-one is riding or dissin you...
you know Im not, thats for shure. just relax bro.

Peace, bub.

 

[OG bub]

I didnt ask you to re-answer all answered post. I asked you to point out bad info not point out my opinion from what you believe to be fact.

those of us who refuse to be corrected, will never learn....