Breeding ethics

[franklyweed]

Unfortunately, 80% of the growers don't need this, though useful

 

[Yard dog]

Seems like you guys all agree that using someones seed stock is ok if you acknowledge the original breeder.

But that is not what gets everybody bent.

It's the clones gents. Someone gets a clone that wasn't supposed to be passed and breeds with it. I have Josey's Sour Dubb. I am not supposed to. Mis labled clone. So if I release an S1 I am a dickhead basically.

Any idea how much drama the Corey cut created? Wow. Oh there is an S1 being made standby for the shit slinging.

And in this clone x clone era the beef is big.

I found a bomb copper chem male. The best I have ever seen in a chem line. Who was the first guy to hear about it? GU I emailed him pics.

I am line breeding. Ever heard of it?? LOL! My current pop is 150. Still "small" I will be picking the stinkers for a terp line breed. Will take 2yrs before seeds are ready for release.

I will only sell seeds that produce 2-3 phenos. Not 127 phenos like the latest Purple Punch x GMO cross.

For me breeding is all in the males. Fem seed was a way of breeders not releasing their males. but fem x fem(poly x poly) is causing issues already. Loads of herms, N sensitivity and 127 phenos. Also Fem crosses around f8 are not looking to hot.

Modern poly's are mutating pretty bad. Another decade of this and many breeders will have garbage muddled genetics. Eventually poly x poly becomes sterile. Mule OG.

I pick very symmetrical structure in my males. I find they are always diploid.

I see a lot of talk on IG about fem only breeding. I do not believe it is a sustainable practice.

Males for the win.

Why do you not think that it is sustainable? for what reason ? will there be no females to pick from?
Why males for the win? how many males do you pick from? how are they selected? (just because they are symmetrical?)
femxfem does not need to equate to polyxpoly.... just the same as female (poly) x male (poly) ?!?!
What will pics of the male chem prove? surely seeing his progeny is a better indicator? did you self the male?
What would the purpose of the male be? to pass on his traits and influence the population? (and future selections based on this? )

 

[mushroombrew]

@AVOH sorry for the off topic action...

@ Yard Dog Damn just shy of 20 questions!

The issue I am seeing constantly is extreme variation. Why? because when you find that special 1 in 10,000 female the chances of her being stable are about zero.

If only one plant is a keeper that, in my opinion, is not a "strain" it is just a "cross". A strain should produce consistent, stable offspring.

90% of "Breeders" are crossing clone only to clone only. And using clone only for BX.

The reason I use symmetry as a guide is because I have yet to find a poly that is. I mean all the way through flower perfect balance. I do not want to continue poly x poly breeding. Or spending $1000's on genetic testing to find diploids. Or going as far back as Landrace. So I pick symmetrical plants for at least one parent. So far so good.

Of course as you said fem x fem does not equal poly x poly always. But these days it often does.

I have two copper chem males. One is diploid one is poly. In case you didn't know you cannot breed poly out. One passes Chem 4 terps the other ChemD

I breed the dip male to poly's and the poly male to Dip females. Or dip x dip.

So never poly x poly.

And yes my stud is so great because of what he passes. I have opened up 8 new lines made with him. He passes symmetry, increases terps, and improves resin in both male and female seedlings. He is in a tent with 40 cuts right now. Test pops; then repeat the best and line breed them.

I can use him for BX's. He "cleans" up the genetics and greatly improves anything he touches. How many seed companies have you seen crush it with just 1 male? I can think of several.

I am heading "backwards" genetically to create stable offspring. All the lines I have made are quite homogenous for unworked F1's. Why? Because my male is "true breeding"

I pop seeds constantly. The only seedlings with uniformity I have grown recently come from my stock. That is just sad. I am all for a good pheno hunt but selling gear that fragmented is lame.

Just look at all the S1 clone only seeds around. Unstable crap. I do not need thiosulphate
to be successful. I have no intentions of making any fem crosses. C-Banana S1? Does that C stand for crap? No thanks.

I have a Y chromosome. So does my pollen...

It's just my opinion. Not interested in arguing my views. I have been growing cannabis for 30 years indoors. I came to this point of view with loads of practical experience.
Lost count of how many guys crossing clone only's for 3 years that tell me I am wrong lol

Time will tell.

 

[dank.frank]

9-21-2012

If you buy Stank Bros seed, then you bought a genetic line...you own it, it is yours. Do as you wish! But if you post up your pheno options, I'll certainly help point out nuances a first time grower of these genetics might miss, to help one achieve their end goal.

1-22-2015

At this point - you bought and paid for them - you F2'ed them, they are YOUR genetics!!! I'm super glad you are putting them to good use and letting others enjoy them as well. Much

I love that this thread was started because of me. I love that I have been mocked and belittled and laughed at for sticking my heels in the sand and calling crooks exactly what they are. Those who have knowingly and intentionally manipulated and lied to breeders to get access to genetics and broken their promises.

I love that NOT ONE PERSON has ever taken the time to actually figure out my own personal stance on such things.

Until recently, GOOD people had to risk their lives and their freedom to bring you all the genetics that fill you jars, your lungs, and for many of you, your bank accounts.

There has ALWAYS been an unspoken, underlying, understood RESPECT among those that have grown cannabis while under the veil of prohibition. That is how genetics got shared and things got created. Collaborative efforts among those who simply respected each other.

I have made posts and shown support for WHAT IS RIGHT. It has zero to do with my personal opinions. It has EVERYTHING to do with sticking up for those who have been wronged. How do you determine right or wrong? Simple. You talk with the breeder and you simply HONOR their wishes.

Respect and honor. The f.u.c.k. is wrong with you people these days?!



dank.Frank

 

[Blind Joe Death]

@Mushroombrew I think you are confusing poly hybrids with polyploidy...the two arent the same and when most people here talk about "poly x poly" they are talking about poly hybrids which the chems are.

 

[AVOH]

9-21-2012



1-22-2015




I love that this thread was started because of me. I love that I have been mocked and belittled and laughed at for sticking my heels in the sand and calling crooks exactly what they are. Those who have knowingly and intentionally manipulated and lied to breeders to get access to genetics and broken their promises.

I love that NOT ONE PERSON has ever taken the time to actually figure out my own personal stance on such things.

Until recently, GOOD people had to risk their lives and their freedom to bring you all the genetics that fill you jars, your lungs, and for many of you, your bank accounts.

There has ALWAYS been an unspoken, underlying, understood RESPECT among those that have grown cannabis while under the veil of prohibition. That is how genetics got shared and things got created. Collaborative efforts among those who simply respected each other.

I have made posts and shown support for WHAT IS RIGHT. It has zero to do with my personal opinions. It has EVERYTHING to do with sticking up for those who have been wronged. How do you determine right or wrong? Simple. You talk with the breeder and you simply HONOR their wishes.

Respect and honor. The f.u.c.k. is wrong with you people these days?!



dank.Frank

Dank this thread wasnt started because of you, and honestly i dont want you to take the statement on the other thread to offensive thats exactly why i took it down. I actually thought it was a good idea just to have something like is up. If you want to discuss anything futher we could do a p.m and speak but i have no problems with you at all. And all this on line drama is messing up this place that i call home.

 

[AVOH]

@AVOH sorry for the off topic action...

@ Yard Dog Damn just shy of 20 questions!

The issue I am seeing constantly is extreme variation. Why? because when you find that special 1 in 10,000 female the chances of her being stable are about zero.

If only one plant is a keeper that, in my opinion, is not a "strain" it is just a "cross". A strain should produce consistent, stable offspring.

90% of "Breeders" are crossing clone only to clone only. And using clone only for BX.

The reason I use symmetry as a guide is because I have yet to find a poly that is. I mean all the way through flower perfect balance. I do not want to continue poly x poly breeding. Or spending $1000's on genetic testing to find diploids. Or going as far back as Landrace. So I pick symmetrical plants for at least one parent. So far so good.

Of course as you said fem x fem does not equal poly x poly always. But these days it often does.

I have two copper chem males. One is diploid one is poly. In case you didn't know you cannot breed poly out. One passes Chem 4 terps the other ChemD

I breed the dip male to poly's and the poly male to Dip females. Or dip x dip.

So never poly x poly.

And yes my stud is so great because of what he passes. I have opened up 8 new lines made with him. He passes symmetry, increases terps, and improves resin in both male and female seedlings. He is in a tent with 40 cuts right now. Test pops; then repeat the best and line breed them.

I can use him for BX's. He "cleans" up the genetics and greatly improves anything he touches. How many seed companies have you seen crush it with just 1 male? I can think of several.

I am heading "backwards" genetically to create stable offspring. All the lines I have made are quite homogenous for unworked F1's. Why? Because my male is "true breeding"

I pop seeds constantly. The only seedlings with uniformity I have grown recently come from my stock. That is just sad. I am all for a good pheno hunt but selling gear that fragmented is lame.

Just look at all the S1 clone only seeds around. Unstable crap. I do not need thiosulphate
to be successful. I have no intentions of making any fem crosses. C-Banana S1? Does that C stand for crap? No thanks.

I have a Y chromosome. So does my pollen...

It's just my opinion. Not interested in arguing my views. I have been growing cannabis for 30 years indoors. I came to this point of view with loads of practical experience.
Lost count of how many guys crossing clone only's for 3 years that tell me I am wrong lol

Time will tell.

All opinions and views are welcome on here mushroom On subject or not
This is icmag we learn and grow here
Thank you for the info and post

 

[dank.frank]

AVOH, Nothing you have ever said has offended me and I certainly don't have hostility for this community as a whole.

I know I've had a harsh vibe. I told F.A.M. I need to take a break from the site. I did so, for a month, actually. When I came back, I was greeted by a ridiculous PM, that in my opinion was essentially a bribe offer to quit telling the truth and it set me off again. I had promised myself I wasn't going down such rabbit holes anymore. That it wasn't my place.

I'm not trying to ruin your home, because it's my home as well. I'm not running around punching holes in the wall. The opposite.

If we were sitting on the couch together and you got up to use the bathroom and person C helps himself to your jar and pockets some, would you NOT expect me to tell you? Would you not want to know what dude chilling with us just did? Would you not then consider me complacent and guilty as well if I didn't speak up? You'd never be able to trust me again and rightfully so.

I view my current protests as much the same. I'm trying to maintain the integrity of our home by sharing the truth.

I do apologize though. In many ways, you are right. The repetitive nature of such posts really does harsh the vibe. Sincerely, I'm working on that. I really don't like swinging the hammer all the time.



dank.Frank

 

[3rd-3yed]

I could not agree more with what was being said previously in this thread... Unfortunately greed and lies are everywhere since a long time in the canna seed game, wack players breaking promises or showing lack of respect for pionners that paved the way before them without even giving them credit for the genetics they used.

Of course it's only getting worse since the legalisation joke, so many more rich businessmens and big corporations in the game running for cash than ever before... Money is the roots of all evils as they say.

Building a good like minded people network is what it's all about to push the community in the right direction. Allways show respect for friends who helped you on your mission to free the plant or ad more genetic diversity to the genepool. Soldiers of the sacred plant as truth will allways rise above the surface and be exposed.

 

[Yard dog]

DF~

I don't know the scoop on who wronged you, I do know you are right to let people know about it though! there will always be people looking to profit from others no matter what & without care for anything other than themselves and the $$...

Rules are there for reasons, some to be broken others to be obeyed

 

[Yard dog]

@AVOH sorry for the off topic action...

@ Yard Dog Damn just shy of 20 questions!

The issue I am seeing constantly is extreme variation. Why? because when you find that special 1 in 10,000 female the chances of her being stable are about zero.

If only one plant is a keeper that, in my opinion, is not a "strain" it is just a "cross". A strain should produce consistent, stable offspring.

90% of "Breeders" are crossing clone only to clone only. And using clone only for BX.

The reason I use symmetry as a guide is because I have yet to find a poly that is. I mean all the way through flower perfect balance. I do not want to continue poly x poly breeding. Or spending $1000's on genetic testing to find diploids. Or going as far back as Landrace. So I pick symmetrical plants for at least one parent. So far so good.

Of course as you said fem x fem does not equal poly x poly always. But these days it often does.

I have two copper chem males. One is diploid one is poly. In case you didn't know you cannot breed poly out. One passes Chem 4 terps the other ChemD

I breed the dip male to poly's and the poly male to Dip females. Or dip x dip.

So never poly x poly.

And yes my stud is so great because of what he passes. I have opened up 8 new lines made with him. He passes symmetry, increases terps, and improves resin in both male and female seedlings. He is in a tent with 40 cuts right now. Test pops; then repeat the best and line breed them.

I can use him for BX's. He "cleans" up the genetics and greatly improves anything he touches. How many seed companies have you seen crush it with just 1 male? I can think of several.

I am heading "backwards" genetically to create stable offspring. All the lines I have made are quite homogenous for unworked F1's. Why? Because my male is "true breeding"

I pop seeds constantly. The only seedlings with uniformity I have grown recently come from my stock. That is just sad. I am all for a good pheno hunt but selling gear that fragmented is lame.

Just look at all the S1 clone only seeds around. Unstable crap. I do not need thiosulphate
to be successful. I have no intentions of making any fem crosses. C-Banana S1? Does that C stand for crap? No thanks.

I have a Y chromosome. So does my pollen...

It's just my opinion. Not interested in arguing my views. I have been growing cannabis for 30 years indoors. I came to this point of view with loads of practical experience.
Lost count of how many guys crossing clone only's for 3 years that tell me I am wrong lol

Time will tell.

I am a little confused by the use of the term "poly" here? I took it as polyhybrid but with you stating diploid (which to my knowledge cannabis mostly is).. Are you saying you have natural polyploids in the population?

 

[mushroombrew]

I am a little confused by the use of the term "poly" here? I took it as polyhybrid but with you stating diploid (which to my knowledge cannabis mostly is).. Are you saying you have natural polyploids in the population?

Yes we need to agree on terminology to communicate. When i say poly i mean Polyploid. Extra set of chromosomes. Diploid have 2.

Many, infact most, American genetics are Polyploid. Thats why there are so many mutations and phenotypes. Also why you get silly potency. It has been selected for. In my opinion too much.

So I select against it. At least on one side. There is a perfect and maximum spot. A knife edge. Enough poly and potency maxes out 30+. Too much poly creates negative traits and sterility. As breeders are finding out at F8-10.

My Road warrior clone is polyploid. And bears seeds. She is on the edge of no return genetically speaking. Double thick stems. Giant seeds. Full on mutant. But with a diploid male the results are staggering. Wait until you smell "Stable Wrecker" ahaha you have no idea! Perfect amount of poly. And stable/homegenous...You're welcome lol.

 

[frostqueen]

I think that maybe there should be an offical thread where breeders and cultivators can come and actually write up ideas and policies that actually put some sort of balance to who puts what name genetics or maybe even if they want there line to be out crossed or crossed ethically.

As a private breeder I agree with your philosophy, but the fat lady has already sung and the credits are rolling. No agreement about proper ethics here will make any. difference. whatsoever. to the outside world. Those days are over.

We're living in a new post-legalization clusterfuck world where anything in the public domain is up for grabs. I don't like it at all, but the fact remains. If you want to protect your elite strains and hybrids you'd better make sure nobody has any access to them, period.

I'm in a legal state, and I can assure you that all of the huge warehouse growers that have come here from out of state don't give a single fuck about the ethics of breeding or about the source of what they grow. The sad truth is that they will be breeding every elite type they can get their hands on. They are doing it right now in huge operations everywhere. They don't care if you spent 10 years developing your incredible hybrid. They're just glad to take it and then mass produce it and make millions from it.

Sorry to rain on the ethics parade. Just sayin'. I wish it were different.

 

[Natural high]

Many, infact most, American genetics are Polyploid. Thats why there are so many mutations and phenotypes.

How do you know this? Polyploidy is a relatively rare occurance and cannabis is typically diploid in keeping with most other organisms. Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

 

[Roms]

With the legalisation time logically there will be a "plant variety certificate" big plan as for all other vegetals imho!... Then royalties?... Canna-revolution fo sure! ?

 

[mushroombrew]

How do you know this? Polyploidy is a relatively rare occurance and cannabis is typically diploid in keeping with most other organisms. Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

Sorry done going off topic. Hit the PM if you like.

 

[dank.frank]

DF~

I don't know the scoop on who wronged you...

See, that's why it's abstract. I've not been wronged in any way, because I have an open policy on genetics.

Phillthy and I discussed this until we both turned purple. The conclusion: It's stupid to set yourself up for emotional conflict or controversy over things you really have no control over. The better option for the sake of ones mental health, , is just to let people have free reign, otherwise you are just setting the stage for conflict to exist.

To take it one step further, no one owns the plant. That notion has been fought against more than any other. The proliferation of cannabis was paramount to the core premise of overgrowing prohibition.

I think, in time, life catches up with everyone and eventually, whether we like it or not, there comes a time to crawl into a ditch and die or spend money to continue existing. It's hard to look at something you have dedicated your life to and then to realize you have nothing to show for it. Genetics, have become a means of establishing identity. For creating reputation. For elevating oneself above others. Ultimately, they have become an economic platform propped up by creative marketing of individual personalities.

This is exactly what cannabis use denounces. Mushrooms, will reveal that fallacy even more clearly. Entheogens, reveal to us the fabric of the universe and if we are willing, reveal to us our truest most vile self for the purpose of cleansing our spirit from that which is our own mind. Cannabis is part of that equation. For me, it IS the equation. It is medicine.

I'm realizing though, even that notion, has been manipulated and abused by others, who understand sociology. Many people have been conned by those who seek only to profit off the passion of individuals who have given their soul to strangers through a plant.

Then again, I've made this "argument" before and that is EXACTLY why I have a new signature. Because it is unfortunately relevant and appropriate.



dank.Frank

 

[Gr33nSanta]

.....no one owns the plant.......

dank.Frank

it was a great post, this one line sums it up.

 

[beanz]

It's hard to look at something you have dedicated your life to and then to realize you have nothing to show for it. Genetics, have become a means of establishing identity. For creating reputation. For elevating oneself above others. Ultimately, they have become an economic platform propped up by creative marketing of individual personalities.


manipulated and abused by others, who understand sociology. Many people have been conned by those who seek only to profit off the passion of individuals who have given their soul to strangers through a plant.




dank.Frank

sad but true

 

[Dog Star]

Problem starts when we privatize something that dont belong just to us...

this plant evolute in a hands of thousends but inner ego wish everything just
for self,while plant is given to everybody... thats why there is a paradox..

paradox of crying ego that cant accept others will have same as he does...

or maybe he will be overachived with a work that does guy after him,then
again crying wolfs all around how somebody still his work,la la la,etc..

people need to move from their own selfishness if they wish to unveil
a new Heaven... whithouth ego beautifull stuff will happend but folks have hard
time to beat their own devil..

Creation dont belong to some certain ego,creation belongs to superego... or us...
all breeders that made regular seeds are by defoult playing for superego..

those femmed breeders play for profit,they play for ego...

so its easy to choose what kind of breeder you wish to become,does you wish
to give to community further or you choose selfish ways and sell just fem seeds..
think on buiss and dont give a damn about those little one in a chain,dont give
him chance to breed further with your fem seeds..


That is how i sees breeding ethics and keeping creation that does not come from humans,humans didnt invent or create plant so they dont have right to claim creation as their own... its given to humans to use it while we are here on Earth...and thats it,no more no less...